Track car reroute Q's [ [I]again[/I] ]
 

Just found out the TSE radiators are delayed about 3 months. Figured I should do the reroute in the mean time, and see how much cooling improvement I can get before switching to the big daddy radiator down the road.

The reason I haven't done a reroute yet is because I feel like every time I try to research it, first of all everyone seems to have a slightly different opinion or way to do it, or I start to understand what's going on and why someone did their reroute a certain way and then Joe comes into the thread and explains why that method is wrong, gets all technical, and then I'm lost lol :(

I'm gonna keep it real simple here.

I'm looking for two things from this thread:
A) Confirmation that I have the concept/plans/parts correct (or tell me I'm wrong and why)
B) Opinion about whether I should go with the BEGI kit, or if I should go DIY

My relevant setup/needs:
-Track car. BUT, is driven to the track (sometimes 200+ miles)
-Heater core is REMOVED
-Fans are on switches - so I do not need the OEM fan switch sensor in the oem front t-stat housing.

Here is what I understand/the plan. Please correct if wrong or confirm if right:

I'm looking @ the BEGI reroute w/ heater core block-off ($214).

-Because this is heater core-less, I will need to gut the new rear thermostat (but leave it in as a restrictor) so that engine gets coolant flow all the time.
-This setup should force flow from the front of the motor to the rear ALL THE TIME. Correct?
-I want to eliminate throttle body and intake manifold coolant lines, so I need to cap off the barb at the front water neck that usually supplies these, correct? What should I use to cap these?
-I also need to cap off the barb on the mixer where the heater core usually dumps into, correct? What can I cap that off with?

I like the BEGI kit for its cost compared to the M-tuned kit, and the ability to get the proper spacer for the back of the head, the proper front t-stat block-off, and the proper hose to run from back of head to radiator with no hunting around for parts. It seems to me like this kit could work well. Is there any reason I should consider going a different route than this kit?

Thanks

-Ryan

Just buy the spacer from BEGI for $80 or whatever it is and the $20 Yukon hose from the auto store. Drill the mm out a hair and tap for a 1/8 npt plug, that way you can thread in a npt-an adapter later for turbo coolant return. The water neck gets completely removed and you pound in a 33mm(35?) freeze plug with a little silicone. Again though, if you're thinking about going to a water cooled turbo later, fab a plate by tracing the water neck neck flange and drill/tap the center for 1/8 npt and plug it for later.

That Yukon hose is great since it's one piece (2 clamps instead of 4-6) and should save you ~$115.

OK.

BEGI spacer ($89)
- OEM coolant sensor and Aftermarket coolant sensor both plug in here
KIA waterneck ($22 from BEGI)
BEGI t-stat block off w/ 1/8 NPT plug ($19 - don't want to make my own, and want to keep the h2o cooled turbo option open instead of freeze plug)
Gut my existing t-stat and move it to the rear
Yukon hose ($20)
Hose clamps for Yukon hose ($5 - or use existing clamps on upper rad hose)
1/8" NPT drill/tap and 1/8" NPT plug for mixing manifold -in case I switch to h2o cooled turbo later ($20)

Looks like a total of $175, or $155 if I don't want the drill/tap for the mixing manifold right now.

Am I missing anything?

And, if I want to put off drilling and tapping the mixing manifold for now and just cap the barb on it, what would you recommend I use for that?

-Ryan

Looks fine to me, although I'd highly suggest making your own plate to save $19, but that's the cheap ass in me talking.

If you're just plugging the mixing manifold, use fuel injection hose and a 6mm bolt from your misc. hardware drawer. Every plug I have bought has broken down over time from the heat. An inch of hose with a bolt clamped in the end is the most reliable method I've found.

I also forgot about the water neck, I reused my 1.6 unit, although the threaded section needs to be cut off and welded shut or it'll hit the firewall. Obviously only an option if you have access to a TIG welder.

If you don't have a heater core, just put the front water neck on the rear with a gutted thermostat, cap off the little line, and buy a line to wrap around to the front. That's all the black car has. No need to spend more than $30 or so.

Gagh.. sorry but I need some clarification to make sure I understand right..

You mean the whole water neck - meaning pull the timing belt then pull the water neck then plug that hole with a freeze plug and put the whole thing on the back of the motor? So the spot for the fan switch sensor becomes the new spot for the ECU's CLT sensor?? It sounds like Curly is saying you have to modify the 1.6 water neck for it to fit and cut that section off....

Can this be done without pulling the motor? I'm looking for simplicity here too... I've been doing too much fab work and in-depth projects lately, I want a simple procedure LOL

"Cap off the little line" - you mean the little one on the water neck that usually supplies the TB and the IM with water?

Would the Yukon hose work with this option?

**this is why I never end up doing it - just when I think I have it all figured out, someone comes in and says "no, do it this way" LOL**


So you did NOT use the BEGI spacer? You just used the full 1.6 water neck from the front and moved it to the back? Or did you use the 1.6 piece that sits above the t-stat only WITH a spacer??

It sounds like you're saying that if you use it you have to cut off the threaded section that I was thinking is where you would plug in the ECU's CLT sensor... so then where does that sensor at the back of the head go?

Haha, youre over thinking it.

Sav is saying just the top part of the water neck, the part you unbolt currently to change the thermostat. You can just bolt that on to the back of the head instead of using a spacer. I'm not sure if the stock coolant sensor will work in the fan switch hole or not, or if it'll fit before hitting the fire wall.

I'm saying I used that piece of the water neck with the begi spacer, therefore not requiring a Kia water neck. To do this and save $19, you need to cut the fan switch threads off and weld it up or it will hit the fire wall.

"Capping off the little line" is the same one one we were talking about earlier on the mixing manifold.

Just to be clear, the lower piece of the water neck that bolts to the head is never used in reroutes.*

*just to confuse you, it is used when people need a water source for the turbo and don't wanna remove the timing belt covers to get to the front of the head.

Thanks for the reply Curly.

So, it sounds like what Sav is suggesting is to use the stock water neck withouta spacer - which I thought was necessary in order for the t-stat to fit... I guess I'll have to wait for a response from him on that.

And, even then I still need most of what I listed before, just not the KIA waterneck... the nice thing about going with the BEGI spacer is that it has a spot for the ECU CLT sensor and for my aftermarket CLT sensor.

Will have to wait for a response from Sav about where he plumbed in the CLT sensor if no spacer was used and if the t-stat fits without a spacer...

-Ryan

The thermostat fits without the spacer, theres even a recess cut out for it already.

For a race car you only need to put a freeze plug where the front water neck goes, and put the thermostat cover around the back of the head, gut the thermostat or replace it with a restrictor plate, you keep everything how it is but cut off and block the fan switch hole, and let your ecu turn the fan on.

Dann

Do the 1.6 guys not have a separate tapped hole in the head for the main CLT sensor? My sensor is still in the factory position in the head.

Nope, ours is in the plate on the back of the head that you replace with the Kia water neck, hence the need for a spacer. So that answers your question pass, you will still need the spacer.

Aha that was the discrepancy between 1.6s and 1.8s that we were missing.

-Need the spacer for the 1.6
-Would rather spend $20 for the KIA neck rather than F around with the OEM one.
-Want to keep the process simple and not pull the timing belt, therefore need the front t-stat block off plate (w/ 1/8 NPT plug just in case) instead of pulling it all and freeze plugging it.
-Will use the Yukon hose
-Will just cut the metal return line down to a couple inches left sticking out of the mixing manifold, clamp on a couple inches of rubber hose, and clamp a bolt in the hose for a plug for now.

Looks like I've gotten it all straightened out.

Thanks so much for all the clarification and info on things guys!

-Ryan

Sounds perfect, enjoy! That heatercoreless setup certainly simplifies the reroute, now you know why there are so many reroute threads.

Awesome. Just to make sure before I pull the trigger and do this as soon as I get my car back from blackbird fabworx...

Is it OK for street driving to run the gutted thermostat - thereby always flowing through the radiator? Is there anything to keep in mind doing this like give the car time to warm up before driving or anything?

I'm not using the car to get groceries, but I drive it to/from everything from track days to autocrosses to car meets.

-Ryan

It's ok, but it wont heat up properly since it's always going through the radiator. Same thing as waiting for a regular car to warm up before beating on it. Might be an old wives tale, but there's definitely merit to it. Since you have a spacer why not put a real thermostat in? Just run a hose to a T in the lower radiator hose.

How about, since the BEGI spacer already comes with a barb fitting to supply the heater core, if I keep the t-stat intact, why don't I keep the metal line that runs under the exhaust manifold into the mixing manifold intact and just run a hose from the barb on the spacer to that metal line by the dipstick? That would achieve the same thing yes?

Is that less than ideal from a cooling standpoint because water will always be cycling through that radiator-less loop?

Ah, no that's perfect. Thought that mightve been blocked off already. If you're worried about the radiatorless flow you can put a valve in-line to shut that bypass off. But I run mine that way without a valve just fine, only difference is it goes through the heater core, but since my extractor and ducting, the heater hasn't been on.

Is this on your '90 or '99? Anyway, on the '99 head, there's a plug just to the right of the rear tstat location that is threaded perfectly for the sensor - problem is you have to remove a little material inside the head b/c the sensor bottoms out about 1/8 shy of being seated - that would eliminate the need for a spacer. Also to the left, I plan on removing the other plug, drilling and tapping for a larger hose barb to provide coolant to the heater core (fogging sucks) and then to turbo. That will also eliminate need for gutted tsat since that will keep it from hydrolocking the system. Currently, when ambients are below 55F, I have too much cooling and my tstat is not gutted, but has about 5 1/4" holes in the lip - so it might as well be I guess When it was 40F mornings, I had to block 1/2 of my radiator to get the temps up, godspeed radiator, mtuned reroute.

Why not just run a regular t-stat? is it that restrictive?

and I take it the t-stat cover from an NB doesn't fit on the NA or 1.6? it doesn't have a barb on it, so perhaps it could be used instead of cutting and welding?

GeneSplicer - this is for the 1990.

The gutted t-stat option is not to make it flow better, the reason for doing that is because with a "track reroute" where there is only one path for the water to go when the heater core is removed from the system, you cannot have a functioning t-stat because it until it opens, you would get NO coolant flow through the motor. The stock design has a bypass, and this is what we are discussing right now - should I gut the t-stat or should I leave it intact and have a bypass to circulate water from the back of the head to the front for when it is closed. Either way, you never run entirely without the t-stat, you would just gut the moving bits inside it, because you still need it to be there to act as a restrictor (I don't know the exact reason why but it's important).

I don't know whether the NB t-stat cover bolts up, but this is being done on the NA, I won't have one of those laying around so I'd have to go get one... which would probably cost the same as the KIA waterneck.

-Ryan

well I understand the reason for gutting, but I wasn't really sure about the flow, makes sense though. flow will allow the coolant to be mostly uniform in its temperature when the t-stat would normal open.

couldn't you drill a hole or two in the t-stat to always have flow (i think someone posted that earlier)? otherwise, I think it would take forever to warm-up, especially if you are driving (and not in boost in your case).

Parts ordered from BEGI. Thanks for all the help guys, especially lots of thanks to Curly!

You're welcome and good luck, post here with any install instructions, it should hopefully go smoothly. Have you bought the Yukon hose yet?

I'll post install info here when I do it to make the thread a good resource for others researching the same thing.

Haven't bought the Yukon hose yet. I don't pick the car up from Blackbird till Sunday so I will probably get it later this week.

-Ryan

how difficult is it to get at the back of the motor to do this swap?

Not terrible. Removal is easy, cleaning and tightening it for a good seal is the hard part. Joe has a method of unbolting the PP frame and jacking up the back of the tranny to gain more room between the engine and fire wall that seems like it would be a big help.

Just wanted to say another thank you for the help with figuring this out.

Finished the reroute today.

Removal of the old stuff off the back of the head went fairly smooth. BEGI sends their reroute instructions along with their spacer, so I was able to follow those directions for all of the stuff on the back of the head. The one thing that is a real PITA is getting the stud out of the back of the head with the double nut method. Overall though, the whole process of the reroute is like yoga for your fingers. It's pretty tight back there, but totally do-able.

I kept the thermostat intact and ran a hose from the barb on the spacer to the hard line that runs under the exhaust manifold and back into the mixing manifold to circulate water when the thermostat is closed. Warm up does not take long with this method, but idling temps are quite low - the car wanted to hold about 155-160* on idle before I drove it, and that's with a 180* thermostat. Goes with the territory of adding a bigger (55mm) radiator and a reroute I guess.

Where I ran into trouble is the Yukon hose. My intercooler pipe, because of how it is routed, perfectly blocks the path that the reroute hose needs to take to get to the radiator...

Because of this, I had to run the Yukon hose under the intercooler pipe, which placed it way too far down and towards the driver's side to line up with the radiator. So I went back to Autozone and found another great "S" bend hose to bridge the gap. I cut the extra length off both the Yukon hose and the S bend hose and stuck them together using my old in-line coolant temp sensor coupLer thingy.

For those who are looking for these hoses, I got both at Autozone:
The big long Yukon hose is made by Dayco - part #71989
The S bend hose is also made by Dayco - part #72166

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1319016903

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1319016903

All the parts from BEGI:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1319016903

I'll take pics of my mess of a reroute. right now it has a bunch of rubber hoses, soon, if ARTech agrees, they will all be metal for the sake of reliability.

The only drawback I see to metal is the heat - you probably have to be careful to not have it contacting vacuum lines and stuff...

I'm surprised by how much of a rat's nest it is under the front of the intake manifold now with that snake of a radiator hose taking up what little room was left, but hey if it works I'm not complaining!

or touching the positve terminal of your starter... and/or alt...



:facepalm:

I haven't done my reroute yet, but I was thinking of using a straight pipe and these things to attach it to the manifold and insulate at the same time.

edit: or these - http://www.mcmaster.com/#pipe-routing-clamps/=ek8ulr

Soviet - I can't load the Mcmaster link for some reason, but that U-bolt with rubber could work. The downside to a straight metal pipe running along the intake mani as opposed to the Yukon hose which is just one long rubber hose is that you use more total hose clamps which means more possible failure points, and the hard line, because it isn't flexible, allows less adjustment - and there are several things over on that side that you may need it to avoid (fuel lines, charcoal canister and associated vaccuum hard lines, etc.)

OK I have a question for everyone.

So cruising on the freeway, with the reroute and a move up to a 52mm radiator, my coolant temp is now hovering at 160* and oil is at 150*. I have 180* thermostats in the coolant system as well as in the oil sandwich plate, so this means the cooling system is just being reallllly effective.

Should I move up to a 190 or 200 degree thermostat for the motor to get my cruising temps up to the 180* range, or are these temps OK for the motor? None of this will affect on-track use and temps, but I don't want to wear the motor down by running it too cold while I'm on the street.

Would prefer to NOT change the thermostat since it's now on the back of the motor and a PITA to get to...

-Ryan

changing the thermostat wont change your temps.

honestly, doing a reroute doesn't magically make your temps that low -- that's not the purpose.

Does your heater core exit dump into the upper hose?

No heater core.

The BEGI spacer, which is pre-thermostat, has a barb on it for the hose that goes to the heater core. Since I don't have one, I just ran a hose from that barb to the hard coolant line that runs under the exhaust manifold and into the mixing manifold - so that is the coolant route when the thermostat is closed.

-Ryan

okay that will do it.

just make a block off plate in front of part of the rad.

I put duct tape on my old mesh grill.

So the consensus is that it's really just doing that good of a job at the whole cooling thing and that the radiator needs to be partially blocked to bring cruising temps up?

Correct. Otherwise the coolent temp will never get to optimal operating temp. In the past i used cardboard and duct tape to cover the entire radiator. But that was when i lived in Chicago with there brutal winter weather. Weeks of freezeing wind chill weather between -30 and -54 degrees.

hmm interesting read. I was considering doing a reroute since my head is off and easy to get at. I have a MX3 rear thermostat housing and the I was thinking of running a new heater hose to the front where the old thermostat was and tapping the plug that is at the rear of the head for the stock sensor and then since I was gonna use the old rear cover on the front see if the fan switch would fit it if not re tap it. I was not considering a spacer since I was gonna run the heater hose to the front. has any one done a 1.6L this way before?

The problem with that is you'll get cooler water for the heater and sensor from the water pump directly below the front water neck. That's why it's blocked off in a reroute, to force all water from the front to the back. Although some of us keep the water neck, it's just for the switch, so it's still "plugged".

aka, keep the heater hose in the back.

Edit: Ignore sorry. Realised I was tired and gave false info. Confused myself.

Dann

I may just leave it alone for now then. I got a new thermostat and I just need to get it back on the road it has a brand new upgraded radiator, new water pump and I am getting 2 new upgrade fans.