when is a billet oil pump needed
 

I will be refreshing my track car's motor and wish to find out more about the necessity of an upgraded oil pump. I've been using the OEM motor for many seasons now without problem, as have a "gaggle" of spec maita's. I'm using sane boost/power levels and reasonable RPM limits.

I would like to know if the billet oil pump is an idea that was brought over as "insurance" from other manufacturers failures (toyota, ect), or if there have actually been miata failures?

If there have been failures, at what hp/rpm levels did these occur.

Presently, OEM 10:1 cr, stock internals, stock damper, 250 whp, 7400 rpm cut. Refresh: forged internals, 9:1 cr, ATI damper, possible Kelford cam, dual valve springs; target 275hp, 7600 spark cut.

use the search function and you'll find the documented failures.
for the rest it's insurance because you don't want to take a chance when you have 6 grand + under the hood

Tell us more about how you're building a $6500 longblock yet don't want to spend the $170 for the upgraded oil pump.

The way I see it, a Boundary pump is something you buy instead of buying a new OEM pump when building a new engine. It's a small enough increase in cost that it's in the noise, and it's good insurance. I don't think I'd put one into an existing motor unless I had an oil pump that failed and miraculously didn't take out the rest of the engine at the same time.

--Ian

<deleted double post>

18 PSI: Yes, I did do a search, and only found this:https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...-thread-73672/

It seems like the failures that I could find on "search" were mostly caused from debris that cause the pressure relief valve to stick open. The pumps that destroyed themselves seemed to be caused by removal of the harmonic damper.

SAV: Aren't these more like $400? ... if I'm going to spend my $, even $170, then I'd like to find out find out what the actual facts are concerning the risk analysis for my application. Back to my basic question: has anyone ever blown an oil pump, unless they've done something wrong (like ran without a damper)?

One of the cars I tuned has shattered the pump. Unopened oem engine, 250whp

Andrew (Savington) has broken at least 1. Many others have as well.

This. :idea:

When I rebuilt mine, it wasn't a question. Why get another OEM when I know I'll be making more HP and abusing the motor. :dunno: no ragrets.

It is well documented that debris in the oil and not running a harmonic damper will result in a loss of oil pressure and bad things happening to the engine. On this forum the correct thing to say is a new forged gears oil pump is cheap insurance/why not/stock pumps suck. I think I've seen two threads this week of people having problems with aftermarket oil pumps (defects in manufacturing in both cases I believe) I've been amazingly lucky as I have spun several motors to 8,500-9,000 RPM with turbo/Supercharger/compound turbos, run high boost, and never had an oil pump failure ever. For a street driven car I give my car hell and have had no failure, no stuck relief valve, etc. That said if I ever build a new motor and get carried away and build what I'd like to build, I'm going to build a custom chain drive oil pump as that is a better design as the gears are no longer bending when the crank bends. This would be a lot of work though.

They are approx $170 more than a new OEM pump. Personally I wouldn't put a ??? mile used oil pump into a new motor, so it's only the delta between the OEM and Boundary pump that matters.

AIUI, oil pump failures have been seen as a result of running lots of power and higher revs, even with the stock damper still installed. An ATI damper is enough better than the stock one that it's possible that might be enough to eliminate this. Or it might not, so depends on how paranoid you are. There isn't a lot of data on this.

--Ian

Thanks. Just checking to insure that fixing a real problem, and just buying marketing.

Mine exploded at under 200 whp, 7k rev limit, and not a single track day on it. ~2 months of street driving.

I'd say its needed.

Don't run a new pump.

But you have to promise to post about it when something goes wrong so you can provide a newer case study for the next wave of forum members.

If you get a BE pump, get it directly from them. Not through a vendor. They are amazing to deal with and will take care of you.

I agree with this statement.

I think getting a BE pump from a good vendor is just as good as getting it directly from them. A vendor that ships in original packaging and doesn't muck with the pumps in-house, for instance.

I like this idea :)

for science

Yes, this works also. I didnt want to call out the exact vendor. We know you are a solid vendor unlike that one other one.

I got mine directly from Boundary, but Trackspeed is a reputable vendor you can trust. There's one I'm not so sure about whose name rhymes with "bad time" that has yielded mixed results. Some love and some hate them. Me? I'm just eating popcorn and sipping an ale.

I think the whole oil pump exploding thing is a bit overstated. Miatas / MX5s have been raced since they first come out and a very large percentage of them don't run billet oil pump gears. The billet gears have only been available for the last 8 years or so anyway so what did we do before they existed? On here it's quoted as if it's a given that if you are building a built engine then you _have_ to run a billet pump or you'll destroy an engine. I would guess that in Australia, less than 1 in 20 built engines have them and we don't see massive numbers of destroyed gears, in fact I can't think of one I've seen in Oz.

The question comes down to how much do you like insurance... are you willing to spend a some extra coin to reduce the chance of grenading your engine. If you like to be safe then go for it... but you may as well buy a better throttle body, race bearings, ATI / SM damper etc etc as well. There is a point you have to stop.

How many shattered oil pump gears have there been? Anyone keen to take a shot at the total number of failures?
What about throttle shaft failures?
Melted pistons from bad tunes?
Melted / bent valves?
Failed rods? Failed bearings?

I would guess that the bottom four items on that list would outweigh the top two by an order of magnitude or more... if not two.

If I was building a $10k engine from scratch it would be a no brainer... put one in, budget isn't a concern. If I'm on a budget there are certain parts I'm willing to go without for other more important things, like dyno time or driver safety. Of course I haven't destroyed a oil pump yet... so my opinion on risk might change abruptly at any moment, but I like living on the ragged edge!

There are 100x the number of post about oil pump gears breaking than evidence of failed oil pump gears with a failure diagnosis. I'm sure a few folks have legitimately had an oil pump gear failure out of nowhere (18psi has seen one as mentioned in this thread on a stock motor), even though they had a good damper and oil in the motor, etc. But as you suggest, it's a very rare failure. Most oil pump failures I see are stuck relief valves, and these are seen on stock and on modified oil pumps alike. Why does this fail? Probably debris hanging the valve, or just wore out from use since the bore is aluminum. Sticking a relief valve after tapping the oil pan while it's still on the car is something that I've seen in miata world, and other cars as well. If anything I think a better relief valve would be a better upgrade, since those seem to "fail" more than the gears. From what I saw years ago, most oil pump gear failures back in the day were tied to high RPM use + no harmonic damper at all (literally removing it for a lightweight pulley to save weight). I could absolutely see a 20 year old worn out/damaged/broken stock harmonic damper causing the same type of failure as well. And stock 20 year old dampers to do fail, even at stock power levels they have been documented to wear out and slip.

If I build another 10k engine I will change the oil pump, but with a chain driven oil pump so that crank flex has no affect at all on the oil pump. For 400 dollars I can do the fab work to put a better oil pump in the car than a stock pump with stronger gears.

I have had 3 of the 4 "bottom of your list" failures. Bent valves, throttle shaft failure, and bent rods. Valves were bent by me on assembly and not discovered for almost 2 years, throttle shaft broke at the track, rods bent from too much nitrous/boost. Never melted a piston, but have broke stock piston in half twice around 350whp each time.

I still think the oil pump gear failure is more about the oil pressure relief valve than anything else. The valve either gets stuck, or overwhelmed at high revs and the pump builds up pressure and blows to bits or alternatively the valve chatters and generates pressure waves that blows the gears to bits. Using a good quality external pressure relief valve prevents pretty much all of those scenarios.

I'm not sure sure about the crank flex failure mode but I suppose if the crank is wobbling all over the place then it could kill the oil pump from deflection... but the pump is right next to a main bearing so the crank would have to be way way out of shape to cause an issue here and if that was the case the bearings would not be happy either. I also think it would wear away the aluminium housing around the pump gear over time than just cause and outright failure. Plus it would happen when you first reved the car.

I'm fairly sure it's a bad idea to run a BP engine without a damper. Our engines just aren't as smooth as other JDM engines. I'm not sure on how much of a requirement an ATI or SM damper helps over stock though... it comes down to risk mitigation vs willingness to spend money. I run half a stock damper to 9000rpm and haven't had issues with my stock oil pump. Out of anyone here I should be highest on list for failure if it's revs and damper related. Maybe I'll jinx myself by posting this!

AIUI, barring the cases of no or failed harmonic damper the shattered gears are mostly about RPM.

--Ian

So I was around when the gears first came out. This was 2008/2009/2010 time frame. They were originally made because the only option at the time to help prevent shattering gears was the ATI damper. It was a $600 part and lots of people did not want to pay that. So TravisR@BE came up with the billet oil pump gears for I think like $100-$150 in the original group buy. This was a cheaper product to solve the problem of exploding gears. He then went on to sell full pumps, and then 949 released their damper. So now there are several products on the market, at various price points, to reduce a specific failure. Any of them are good to run and it is up to you which you choose. I originally chose the gears, because they were the cheapest at the time. I now run the gears and a 949 damper. So no they are not "required", but if I was building a motor with forged rods and pistons, I would for sure make sure to have one of the solutions to minimize the chance of oil pump gears exploding.

Great discussion and good points!

In prior racing seasons I had run a porsche flat6 and then moved onto chevy-8's. Quite a disparity in the attitudes towards engine prep: The porsche crowd wanted to sell you all sorts of expensive engine jewelry, with the attitude of "only the best...only the most expensive" ...when in reality, all that you actually needed for a solid motor were ARP rod bolts, a better pan baffel and an upgraded intermediate shaft bearing.

While with the chevy ... I think on advice from "bubba"... I used the stock $35.00 oil pump with a roadracing pan and called it good! Even when I needed head work, the midwestern boys at brodix always gave me good chat and a low-down-brother-in-law good-deal on the parts.

The miata is nice, since it's so well sorted out. I'm a little leary since there is so much smack talk about some of the vendors... it kind of makes you want to investigate things for yourself. So, now that I'm well informed, I will get on with my longblock refresh! ...I hope you all don't mind, as I'll likely ask a few more questions before I'm done. ;)

Poor folk like me... they don't even make a pump for ... short nose 1.6. I don't have a choice . Still ok. For now.

Swap in a 1.8. Problem solved.

No

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...415bb1c916.jpg
If you have any money into a motor you never wanna feel this kinda pain

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So you're basically implying that anyone that has ever busted a motor even with the 'upgraded' stuff has somehow messed up in the installation or motor build?

Am I reading your claim correctly?

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This is factually incorrect.

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So you come into a thread talking about a specific failure with a totally vague and redundant observation of "sometimes it's something else".

Does every thread really need to have a disclaimer?
1) if you are not a moron
2) if you know how to assemble an engine
3) if you don't pour sand into your oil fill
assuming all of the above is true............THEN let's talk about things breaking from power/heat/abuse

I mean ok, but that's...just....like....my....opinion man

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THE POINT IS, your comments are irrelevant for the following reasons:

1. your basic premise is REALLY OBVIOUS
2. the rest of your premise is correct only in a Miata.net use case.

Sure, assembly is more important than parts choice at stock power levels on a granny driven car (see m.net comment). But for a turbo track car running lots of power, it simply isn't. BOTH are important, and no amount of careful measuring is going to make stock rods hold up to 350 whp on track.

Questions about parts failure assume proper assembly. if they didn't, that'd be a really stupid question.

"guys, If I throw together an engine without measuring anything or cleaning the block, and maybe there's some metal shavings inside, how much power will my stock rods hold?"

:facepalm:

.

actual IRL lol

here we go

Guys, you had me at: (18psi): "one of the cars I tuned shattered a pump. Unopened oem engine, 250whp".:eek5:

Thank you all for sharing your experience. cj

LOL

Same reason you don't go over kindergarten math in calculus class. At some point you have to start having expectations, or every single discussion will require 200 pages of review prior to discussing the topic at hand.

If I were sure I weren't being trolled by someone who doesn't like me because I declined to make expensive intellectual property public on the forum a few months ago, I would craft a long post talking about the difference between fact and opinion, and how there are lots of ways to achieve the same goals, and how my methods might not be the best for everyone, and then I'd talk about how factual inaccuracy passed off as "valid opinion" just serves to harm the members of this forum, and how I have an obligation as a veteran member and paying sponsor to protect against the kinds of factual inaccuracies being presented in Art's posts.

But I'm not, so I won't.

but y u so mean tho

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I don't discriminate against locals, I'll drag you up to my level whether you like it or not. Looking forward to meeting you.