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Why aren't miata engines so good for all-motor power?

Old Oct 8, 2018 | 04:03 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Twibs415
the short turn is so bad
Calling it a short turn is almost an injustice to the term.

It's my intention to do a minimum of blending from the bowl to the port on the floor side.
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 04:31 PM
  #42  
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Also miata valve sizes could be bigger but then you need to cut out and knock in new seats and double check piston to valve clearance... money people dont want to spend
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 04:33 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Twibs415
Also miata valve sizes could be bigger but then you need to cut out and knock in new seats and double check piston to valve clearance... money people dont want to spend
Funny enough, Mazda BP and Honda B VTEC heads have the same valve sizes.
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 05:19 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by burdickjp
I took a casting of a VVT head and then laser scanned the casting. Here it is: https://a360.co/2JKtHkp
Rounding out the flat roof from the injector pocket through to the bowl looks to me like one way to achieve the appropriate change in cross section through the length of the port.

Even with filling the floor as an option I didn't see the shape up top as being good. It doesn't look like it has an appropriate change in cross section through the length of the port.
I had the same questions. Our earliest heads (2004) were just cleaned up, bowl blended. Then we started removing material. Several years of failure to improve with several port designs later, I noticed our best area under the curve was with the old cleaned up but basically stock head. Studied more and realized the BP's rod ratio plays a key role in determining intake gas mass hysteresis, peak velocity, avg velocity and ultimately, total flow. Greatly over simplified, high rod ratio (long rod) engines have a sine wave of intake velocity gradients with shallower ramps. The BP is short, sharp. Turns out it's easier to suck the gas and fill the cylinder through a smaller, higher velocity port than a larger, higher peak flow but lower velocity port. I'm not "engine guy" but the white papers and old school knowledge backed up my speculation.
So I asked Keegan to do a head with velocity in the lifts we were using as first priority. Ignore peak CFM. The result kicked ***. It also opened up new flow regimes that lead to further experimentation. That led to the +2 exhaust CNC head that we offer now.

Let us know how your experiment works out. Meaning, post A/B dynos with no other changes.
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Old Oct 8, 2018 | 06:51 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by emilio700
I had the same questions. Our earliest heads (2004) were just cleaned up, bowl blended. Then we started removing material. Several years of failure to improve with several port designs later, I noticed our best area under the curve was with the old cleaned up but basically stock head. Studied more and realized the BP's rod ratio plays a key role in determining intake gas mass hysteresis, peak velocity, avg velocity and ultimately, total flow. Greatly over simplified, high rod ratio (long rod) engines have a sine wave of intake velocity gradients with shallower ramps.
Long rods are good!

Originally Posted by emilio700
Let us know how your experiment works out. Meaning, post A/B dynos with no other changes.
If I get to that, which I doubt, it's going to be a while down the road.
I appreciate you sharing your approach.
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 06:56 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by emilio700
I had the same questions. Our earliest heads (2004) were just cleaned up, bowl blended. Then we started removing material. Several years of failure to improve with several port designs later, I noticed our best area under the curve was with the old cleaned up but basically stock head. Studied more and realized the BP's rod ratio plays a key role in determining intake gas mass hysteresis, peak velocity, avg velocity and ultimately, total flow. Greatly over simplified, high rod ratio (long rod) engines have a sine wave of intake velocity gradients with shallower ramps. The BP is short, sharp. Turns out it's easier to suck the gas and fill the cylinder through a smaller, higher velocity port than a larger, higher peak flow but lower velocity port. I'm not "engine guy" but the white papers and old school knowledge backed up my speculation.
So I asked Keegan to do a head with velocity in the lifts we were using as first priority. Ignore peak CFM. The result kicked ***. It also opened up new flow regimes that lead to further experimentation. That led to the +2 exhaust CNC head that we offer now.

Let us know how your experiment works out. Meaning, post A/B dynos with no other changes.
What does this actually mean?
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 07:12 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by concealer404
What does this actually mean?
Something I made up. I forget what the correct terminology is. The air mass behaves a bit like a slinky. Create a pressure differential at one end (piston dropping) and a pressure wave propagates up the column of gas (atmo + fuel). Takes a while for the other end of that slinky to reach the same velocity as the mass near the piston. Intake manifold, cam and port design help with resonances, mostly 2nd order in production engines. Port wall texture also plays a role in boundary layer friction. Basic HVAC design takes into account boundary layer turbulence as it increasingly occludes flow through a given length of pipe. That occlusion is why small diameter corrugated brake ducts with lots of sharp bends don't do ****.

Hysteresis = slinky. Someone that knows more about it can dig up the correct terminology. The point is short rods need port and cam designs that do not work with long rods. This is again, something I learned by failing a lot by trying to apply tech optimized for longs rods to the BP. Once I went back to square one and got my fundamental understanding more accurately aligned with the platform, we started seeing breakthroughs. My favorite stuff is the tiny mod/big gain experiments. How we get 170whp out of stock cams and intake manifold kind of thing.
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Last edited by emilio700; Oct 8, 2018 at 07:49 PM.
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by burdickjp
Funny enough, Mazda BP and Honda B VTEC heads have the same valve sizes.
If you look at the history of head work that some of the leading companies do, the valves have gotten bigger and bigger over the years. The valve and the throat of the port are the biggest restrictions.

I would bet a bp with a reworked floor to decrease the cc of the ports and fix the short turn radius along with as big of valves as possible would make great power.
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 08:01 PM
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Attached Thumbnails Why aren't miata engines so good for all-motor power?-c84c7ba6-2930-4646-adf9-eed016bcf4a6.gif  
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 08:15 PM
  #50  
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You need one of those supertech heavy double slinkies.

--Ian
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 09:35 PM
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Old Oct 8, 2018 | 10:02 PM
  #52  
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Valve inclusion angles have also narrowed. The BP has a 50 degree valve inclusion angle, which is rather wide. Narrow inclusion angles create smaller combustion chambers and better squish. They also allow for straighter, taller ports.
Old Oct 8, 2018 | 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 18psi
unnatural aspirations
i feel personally attacked
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