SuperTuner12010

iTrader: (2)

Planning out my water lines for turbo and reroute. Wanted to run this by you guys to see if their are any problems with it before I start ordering stuff.

6258 with Kraken low mount. Planning on ordering crossflow rad when available.

Haven't decided which reroute to run, debating on either qmax or Hawley with cobalt silicon hose(not sure if fitment with crossflow radiator though).

I plan on deleting front neck and TB lines. So I'm thinking of running hose from oil cooler/heater outlet to turbo inlet and then back to mixing manifold with the Hawley billet inlet. modified the pic from Supermiata to be what I am thinking. Do you guys see any issues or concerns doing it this way?

curly

iTrader: (25)

Nope, that's how you do it. Can't say enough good things about the Supermiata reroute. Highly recommended for anyone* that needs a rereoute.




*I will say, it has a built in bypass hole, the thermostat itself has no jiggle valve or other bypass. Therefore, if you're in a cold climate and have a lot of shorter drives, you may look into modifying it to warm up quicker

AussieMSM

I'm glad you mentioned that. I have this reroute and noticed longer warm up times on really cold mornings and wondered if the thermostat was slightly jammed or something. Glad I didn't go pulling it apart to find out!

curly

iTrader: (25)

I put it on in the winter (40s) when I was still NA a few years ago, drove 15 miles home, never got over 160. A testament to their cross flow radiator too. But it works wonders in summer heat with my turbo now. Like I said, I think there are some modifications you could do to make it warm up faster in cooler climates.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Easiest way to winterize a Qmax & Crossflow equipped car is a sheet of HDPE with some holes in it blocking about half the radiator. Make sure you have an accurate coolant temp gauge and not just relying on the OEM gauge. You're aiming for 185-205°

deezums

iTrader: (3)

That still leaves you warming up the entire water volume of the system before the thing will get to temp. The issue is the thermostat being bypassed at low heat demands, like idle. The solution is plugging the bypass, or drastically reducing it's size. Someone who's bothered by the lack of one could reinvent one with a needle valve or something.

I never have issues maintaining heat, just that it takes 20+ minutes to get heat.

This tells me the bypass is too large, and it's artificially lowering the set point of the thermostat while the coolant is cold and only while the coolant is cold. The crossflow isn't magic, it doesn't cool much more than a stock rad in these conditions, sitting idle without moving.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Too large for what though? It was designed for southern California turbo cars racing in summer. If you take all of those factors away, I'd expect it to over cool a bit.

msmola2002

I did notice when I was driving mine before I parked it for winter, that with an ambient of about 5c, I could not get the water temp above 75c, on the street. 40f/167f in freedom units.

deezums

iTrader: (3)

I would ask if the bypass does anything other than break the car for cold climates. Once the thermostat is open it stays open a little even while idling and even in the cold. If that is the case, then the pressure drop from the thermostat is going to be much less than the machined slot turning a corner, so it doesn't do anything for a turbo car in the summer anywhere, either. So, too large period.

All based off the stupid **** I did with my 1.6 reroute that's posted in my thread somewhere, so I'm not just completely talking out my ***. A jiggler closes once the air is gone and in theory the bleed port takes care of that, most cars won't bypass the thermostat at all. Is there actually a benefit of doing so, other than retarding the coolant temp rise?

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Semi's have used winter radiator covers for decades and still do. In F1 and NASCAR, the size of the brake duct inlets are varied depending on thermal demands of the track. Blocking off part of the radiator in a competition level cooling system designed to reject 3x the heat of OEM is not nonsense. Not being able to grasp its value doesn't make it any less true.

The bypass in the Qmax is there to relieve pressure before the thermostat opens. Any subsequent increase in flow in high thermal load conditions is a bonus. In any case, the Qmax and Crossflow are proven pieces, not speculation.

Block off part of the radiator and go worry about more important stuff my friend

deezums

iTrader: (3)

I always thought semis had them because they have big radiators and big blocks and so they will outrun the response of the thermostat, so they oscillate more without the blanket in cold conditions. I have also never seen them driving around with blankets in the 40's.

To me it's a smaller begi racer reroute hidden in the reroute, and I remember how much we all liked those.

And once again, I don't move fast enough on my daily commute to get any benefit blocking the rad off. I didn't have to do so with my last miata which also did not overheat, there's no reason to relieve pressure before the thermostat opens as that is the issue in the first place. The heater core should be doing that just fine.

Besides bleeding huge pockets of air that might appear after the bleeder valve has been cycled I see no reason for it to be there. For that reason it's about 6X the area it actually needs.

Is the official diagnosis really blanket your miata rad if it goes down to the 40's?

Could you please test one without that bypass, it would be easier to make!!

msmola2002

I wonder if the FM one has a smaller bypass, or if it also has this "feature"?

deezums

iTrader: (3)

The FM reroute is a shitty copy of the Qmax with worse problems for more money. I am really confused as to why everyone forgot how a thermostat works all the sudden. Almost as if I am missing something, probably obvious.

That's just my opinion though.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

We did. about ten years ago. The current design works better.

Again, your skepticism is actually appreciated. You'r also entitled to your opinion based on your test sample size of one mixed with some conjecture. We have thousands of hours of actual use in the field. We stand by our design. It's proven and works. If you feel it doesn't work for you, there are several alternatives.

And yes, if your highly modified Miata with competition level cooling system upgrades lacks the range to get warm enough in cold weather, then do what the Semi's and Pro motorsports race teams do, make the inlet smaller.

msmola2002

There are literally 4 posters above that state that they have had issues getting up to operating temperature.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Sorry Emilio, didn't mean to start anything. Anything I implied might work by changing the block off is purely speculation, I would go with E's recommendation of blocking off part of the radiator. The reason it over cools is because it's putting water through the radiator, so by keeping air from cooling the radiator, it'll help warm up. I had one cool test drive after putting the engine in before going home to install the turbo setup.

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

We agree. It can happen when you have too much cooling capacity. Thus why we tell folks to block off part of the radiator in really cold weather. Aircraft, marine, industrial and motorsports all have a similar solution when a cooling system lacks sufficient operational range. They reduce inlet area.
There are many OEM cars on the market now that have active shutters in the nose. None of the engineers of these systems decide to reduce system capacity to avoid shutters.

The questions appears to be whether that solution represents a danger or design flaw. In our experience, it does not.
So we have no plans to change the design to delete the bypass.

msmola2002

The first I read of this was in this post.

Nothing on the QMax product page.

I am aware of blocking radiators. I owned a GP racing motorcycle. So I am familiar with the concept. The reason for that was because the thing didn't have a thermostat, which is the whole point,

deezums

iTrader: (3)

Active shutters are for efficiency which is all the rage currently and semis seen without blankets probably have them. They are a way to increase the cooling capacity without any drawbacks, like extra drag.

And a note added to the sales page would be nice, not for winter driven daily drivers. I knew this would happen from my own personal experience but gave it the benefit of the doubt and now have to take it all apart again to fix it. I consider no longer reaching operating temp when I would have before a design flaw, especially coming from another miata with reroute without this problem (which also did not overheat) and from my polarizing opinions on PCV valves and daily drivers you might be able to guess why.

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it!

emilio700

iTrader: (3)

Yup, and all of the other industries I mentioned above also use thermostats. Only way to get the extreme range needed for a turbo Miata that runs in 25-105° ambient temps is with an electric water pump.

Again, one can try other reroutes to see if they'll allow the engine to reach desire temps in really cold weather. The Qmax name comes from the term for maximum heat transfer. That was our design goal. On the hot weather end of things, we saw no need for a compromised thermal capacity solution.
I suspect that if someone wanted to spend the time gathering data, testing and prototyping, they could develop a reroute with a wider operating range than the Qmax. Until then, some Qmax owners may need to block part of the radiator in really cold ambient temps.