Cat outta the bag
 

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...00&postcount=4

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...19&postcount=9

Frank

I saw that subframe - a nice piece for just about any engine swap IMO.

I want three!!!!

ok, that's just cool

miataturbo&ls.net

I've got it in my car. Very well done. And for the ultra weight savings guys, it's 10 lbs lighter.

Frank

Yeah, Bill and I disagreed on when to go public with this. I wanted to keep it under wraps until the car was done and just unleash it in a video :)

We've got a stock-engine subframe here to try out on one of our cars. It's lighter (I think they managed to pull another couple of pounds out since ours was made) and has the NB geometry. Meanwhile, LS-related parts are starting to collect - the engine, shifter and transmission are here and I think the diff is on the way.

wow you guys are going to corner the miata aftermarket industry if you keep this up! Just get a rotary swap kit and you'll have them all!

I'm waiting for the Turbo LS1 :)

bloody hell!

You're right, mighty mouse: if someone were to offer a cut-and-dry path to an LS1-powered Miata, they'd rake in cash. ..IMHO

^ Unless the price was prohibitively high.

However, if it is competitive, I may have just found another reason to keep my miata for a few more years.

Maybe Frank will let us know what it costs when he's done. :dunno:

The price will probably get a few people upset, but that's a given for anything that's hand fabricated in very low volumes. There's a lot of time involved in building a new subframe and it has to be very precise. The engines themselves are still on the pricey side too. We're keeping very close track of the costs involved - a swap like this can break you with all the weird little parts if you're not careful.

I think the complete kit is right around $4000. On top of that, you'll need an LS engine (duh), a T56 transmission, a differential and a few other bits and pieces. But you get a new front subframe, motor mounts, transmission/diff mounts, halfshafts, framerail reinforcements, uprated hubs and new wheel bearings. The diff is available with some nice tall ratios (it would be a good option for turbo Miata guys too) and it'll save you the price of a Torsen.

I think it's price-competitive with a built engine and a turbo - or with a turbo Miata with a stock engine and an uprated transmission and differential. It sure comes across as an interesting option, that's for sure.

Hmmm.... subscribed.

4 grand aint bad. I was thinking more. If, for example, its possible to stay under 6 for the whole conversion I would be sold.

Just one problem though, cant pass emissions inspection anymore.

Yeah I'm gonna subscribe too. An LS series swap would earn me brownee points with the big wigs at work. :yippee:

rockers and push rods oh my ;)

I'll take the LS1 westfield

Is it possible to stay under $6k? Possibly, but you'd have to be both good and lucky. LS engines are pretty valuable, so it all comes down to how cheap you can find one. A T56 isn't exactly a $200 Miata trans either. But you can sell some of your existing parts to help recoup some costs. The amount you get out of that depends on what's in your car of course. I would think that $6k would be the absolute bare bones minimum for cost.

But I might be wrong. That's why we're actually tracking costs instead of just making them up :)

As for the Westfield, I've seen a SBC one. A bit of a beastie, that was.

Why not? As far as I'm aware (and I'm no expert) you can't put an SUV or truck engine in a car and you can't use an older engine than the car. So say a '93 Miata with a '94 'Vette engine would be ok by those rules. There's probably one or two laws I'm not privy to though.

this will be a $10K+ swap, had one planned for my 240sx then business at work got slow

Pretty sweet, now we know why BEGi madfe a rear mount turbo kit :giggle:

Keith, what Diff were you talking about?

93 miata has to pass a sniff test only, doesnt it?

My 97 is obd2, it has to be plugged into the machine. CEL == fail.

I'm doing the swap in an '01 and have to pass the OBDII port test. Why wouldn't it? It's a motor out of (for me) and '01+ vehicle that had to pass emissions. The port will show all the CELs I want it to. ;) HPtuners is great software as is EFIlive. Both are flash programs for the LS series motors from '98 up and provide complete control over CELs.

As for cost, it is more than most of you cheap young bastards can afford without going into credit card debt. ;)

About 4K for the subframe and driveline kit. Another $200 for the clutch hydraulics.

An LS1 goes for around anywhere from $1500-3K depending on the mileage. T56s are in the $1500 range because the can handle pretty much anything you throw at them and are the same size as the Miata trans (though they probably weigh a good 50 lbs more)

I paide $1500 for a freshly built T56 and $2100 for re-ringed and re-bearinged LS6 out of an '01 Z06 'vette. I also had to buy a new intake and TB, plus a $200 LS2 water pump. I had bought a high mileage LS1 w/ PCM and wiring harness for $1K but it's very pricey to get an LS motor new rings and bearings so I sold all that crap and found the latest deal. I was able to sell the old motor minus the PCM and harness for $1K so I pretty much got the harness for free.

I added an LS6 intake for another $350 since my new motor isn't coming with one. Plus odds and ends TB, new plugs and wires, gaskets, various sensors, etc. probably set me back another $300. Then there was the F-body oil pan, baffle and pickup and getting it cut and welded which is another $400.

Clutch: I'm using an used (5k miles) LS7 setup I got for $250 which includes the flywheel, PP, and disk, plus the slave cylinder.

CTS diff: About $700 shipped from the best GM parts wholesaler (which aint gmpartsdirect) They're available in many different ratios. V8roadsters recommended 3.42 for me.

PCM reprogram was only $85 for a mail order tune plus free tweaks from a respected mail order tuner.

Has anyone added all this shit up? :)

I did sell the motor, FM II turbo kit, rear end, trans, Motec ECU, full turboback exhaust, etc for probably $5K or so, so all in all it won't be a total money pit.

You can check out pics and progress at m.net in the conversion section. Just look for my thread about v8roadsters progress.

Frank

Again,
The fully flashable, tunable, programmable GM PCMs are way better than the Miata ECU. Software runs about $600 and allows you total control over the stock PCM including CELs.

Frank

30 mpg out of a ~350 whp car? Easy. ;) I'm doing this for the economics.

$300 for a cam + $400 for a custom tune for an added 80 whp trumps anything you can come up with on the B6 or BP aside from a 100 shot of NOS which the LS motors take nicely too also.

Hell you can buy replacement parts at 7-Eleven and Walmart for your LSX motor.


Frank

My friend Tim has one here in VA done for years makes 430 whp and is a beast. He built it all himself, no kit.

Here some pics. its awesome.


http://www.ls1miata.net/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=25

The diff is the one from the CTS. I'm not as solid on the details there as I should be, it's still fairly new stuff to me.

Frank, if you average 30mpg in that car after it's put together, then you probably should've bought a prius. ;) Thanks for the subtotals.

I don't know about city, but 30mpg highway or mostly highway shouldn't be tough to do. Vettes and the like get terrific highway economy.

A lot of my driving will be golf outings (long freeway drives) so there won't be too much tire smoke though I'm sure the first set of RA1s in the rear won't last too long. :)

Frank

Check this out, Friends Miata LS1 vs TT 300z 23psi

http://thumbs.streetfire.net/f038ec1...a701764dd2.jpg91 300ZX TT vs LS1 Miata

Wow that's amazingly close. But like Frank said... not much the Miata (assuming it's a stock engine) would have to do to add power.

needs more boost.

Needs a bigger cam. Oops, which car are you talking about? :)

Frank

I didn't realize that was turbo tacoma - so it IS a modded LS.

Yeah, he's got 400+, so a bigger cam, better heads and valve springs and a tune.

Frank

You guys know Tim?
Yea its a 383 stroker with cam.

Know him as in I've seen his sig and videos at M.net and I hang out in the Conversion forum. Plus I know what it takes to get an LSX to low 400s. Forgot about the stroker.

Frank

This is a bad move. The CTS rear like to grenade. They typically do not last at the drag strip. You guys would be much better off with a ford IRS rear end...and they're easier to get too.

Tim's has a 8.8 from a Thunderbird IRS.

The CTS diff problem was addressed by GM at the end of '06. There was a pinion seal leak and the seal has been redesigned as has the case.

My diff was easy to get. This car won't be a dragstripper, so I'm not worried about blowing it.

Frank

I received the exact same reaction to the CTS diff from some knowledgeable folks here in KC (shop owning, American muscle, drag racing types). The Ford 8.8 IRS was universally recommended.

Are you guys counting on the Miata to be easier on diffs because its such a light weight car?

I'm counting on it being better on diffs as the '07+ diffs aren't experiencing the problem of the < '07s. Wheel hop might be a cause too but I'm assuming I'll see much more wheelspin than wheelhop. Plus the V8roadster kit has more solid mount for the front.

There were a lot of complaints of the T-bird 7.5 rear in Fords but no problems when they're put in Monster Miatas.

Frank

Wow how did I miss this thread??

Personally I think 4k is a bit extreme for a swap kit, but theres plenty of people who will pay it. If it actually came with some nice longtube big primary (1 7/8") headers then I think 4k would be well justified.

For anyone who saw my LS1 FD RX7 drive thread.. They spend around 14k total on a car and sell them for 20 - $30,000 without any lax in orders. Come on, bone stock motor you're running like 11s or low 12s, 30+mpg highway driving, and can out accelerate 98% of Hondas in sixth gear..:bowrofl:

Seriously though, LSx's respond VERY VERY well to even the simple mods. Heads/Cam/intake/longtubes and good program will easily pickup over 100 horsepower. As for the GM Computers, yeah, 100% programmable with LS1Edit and its not even that hard to do. Get real wiley and strap a P1SC @ 8psi intercooled onto it and expect to never get traction again. Ever. It'd be a dyno queen, like Supras. :giggle:

Good luck on the kits, Keith. I can tell you, if you build it.. They will sell.

Supply and demand is why the kit costs so much. The FD guys have cheaper kits because there are more guys taking on the swap. I will say this again, the kit is a perfect fit and really well done. The Racing Concepts kit is cheaper but there are a few things I didn't like when shopping so I went V8roadsters.

Frank

nvm..

group buy...

They just need to say when and how much. I'll buy everything minus the rear end kit, which will be Racing Concepts 8.8 kit which uses an explorer aluminum diff

You'll need a custom driveshaft. The v8roadster kit sits the motor back further than the RC kit. So if you're doing the RC rear, they'd need to cut the shaft shorter for you.

Frank

Thank you for the heads up! How much lower does the v8roadster kit set the engine?

It sets it back further, but I don't think it is any lower. It would be hard to tell without both cars next to each other.

Frank

do you still have to cut a good portion of the tunnel out? looked like the tunnel had a decent amount cut out of it with the v8roadster kit.

Zenspeed also has a kit coming out sometime which is supposed to allow you to run any header you want because they pull the steering shaft out of the way.

You don't really cut much out. You do cut it (maybe heat it) and bend it in then weld it up for more clearance. Same difference I guess. I've done most of the cutting, and my welder should arrive tomorrow.

Zenspeed has been promising a kit for a year now, but still offers nothing. A reason I like the v8roadsters kit is it keeps the steering geometry, which avoids bump steer which I read was an issue with the original RC kit.

Unfortunately, the headers from v8roadsters has been delayed. The mandrel bender the were getting them from didn't deliver as promised.

Frank

What about the strength of v8's subframe vs. OE? From photos it doesn't seem that it could be as strong since there's so much less of it, but I'm not a structural engineer. I'd like to here HOW it equals or exceeds the OE subframe strength. I suppose you'd want it to exceed since it's a power upgrade. That subframe is ideal for a lot of different swaps- but at that price it's probably out of reach for most budget swappers.

hey frank, you know my welder made it "home" almost too. scott has it at his place (couple miles up the road)

but since you'll have one... and I might find some time in the next couple weeks...

Can you shoot some pictures of the area you cut up? I've really been back and fourth between RC and V8roadsters. What is V8roadsters new deadline for a header and what size header tubes will be used? I'd hate to choke up a built 347 with a 1 5/8's inch header.

I have a slightly more detailed writeup with some pics at:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=278524

You can see the pic where I cut the ears off. That area below the cutoff ears still needs to be widened to 18 inches across and down about 6 inches on both sides. I've done most of it but need to make another small cut because there is part of a support right behind where I'm cutting in the NB. I don't think the NA has it.


If you PM me your email, I can forward you my pics of the modifications that I have done to the tranny tunnel, plus where Shandelle from v8roadsters showed me I have to make it a bit wider.

As for the strength of the subframe, I guess time will tell.


Frank

Shandelle said he'd be doing the headers by hand until they find another header fabricator that can do it for them. Part of the problem is probably the limited amount of buyers.

Maybe the RC kit headers will work? Dunno.

The v8roadster headers have a 3 inch outlet but I'm not sure the size of the runners.

Frank