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Old 07-06-2016, 11:17 PM   #1
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Default 10AE and MSM

Long time follower first time post on here. As the title says I have a 10AE and a MSM. I have bought both of these in the past 3 months. I bought the 10AE and planned on using it for my project car. I did the usual timing belt,water pump, seals and all the hoses. Then put redline fluids in the transmission and diff. I then found a MSM with less miles for really cheap and in great condition accept finder bender. I will try and consolidate this and make it easy. I am in both of these cars for under 6k. I know both basically have the same drivetrain. The axles are a little bigger on the MSM. From what I have read the clutch on both die at about 250 and the transmissions get unhappy about 325-350. I thought I would be happy with the MSM ,but for some reason the linear power of the 10AE seems to be more fun on the way to work taking all the clover leafs. The biggest problem I am having with the MSM is the ecu tuning. I am wondering if the MSPNP Pro plus little enchillida kit would fix the MSM enough to enjoy it or if i would be better off selling the MSM and turboing the 10AE. I know they are for the most part the same motor except cams on the MSM.
Goals.
1. My brother has a new BRZ and I like the way it handles and I want my miata to out do it. We go to arkansas a lot and take the Pig Trail and other HWY's often. So I would assume either Fox from FM or Xida from 949.
2. Power well as of right now the MSM is the exact same speed as the BRZ from 20-95. Dead even plus or minus 6 inches on 110 degrees day here after 75 miles of cruising. I dont know about how much power I want because I don't know what each HP level feels like. I would like to say 250 +/- would be nice ,but then again a better tune,intake and exhaust for the MSM may be perfect. I am not trying to drag race a C6 Z06 ,but being able to outrun a 4 door truck full of people assuming your gay would be nice.

I have tried to use the search button a lot before signing up. So far I see 18psi said he would order a different ecu for the MSM before he got it home. I also read that if I want to make more than 225 ish HP then I need to scrap all of the crappy turbo stuff on the msm and start over.




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Old 07-06-2016, 11:21 PM   #2
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My question is. What would you guys do in my shoes. I don't need both of them. Would you keep the MSM or the 10AE? The MSM would be easier and faster to get to keeping up with the BRZ. I would hope suspension and PNPPRO would be enough for a while.
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Old 07-08-2016, 11:22 AM   #3
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How much does the damage on the MSM bother you? For me, personally, it would bother me until it was fixed, and that's not cheap. Your AE, from pictures, looks to have a clean body, and that would be worth a lot to me. If you just want to go fast, it obviously has no effect. On the other hand, you could probably sell/part the MSM, maybe after taking off any goodies you want to put on the blue car, and use the money to get a good way into an aftermarket turbo setup and/or Xidas for the AE. The MSM transmission and diff/axles alone are worth an easy $1,200-$1,500. The MSM has bigger brakes and a better/bigger master cylinder and booster. Neither set of wheels is ideal for a high-powered car, so you'll probably end up buying a set of 15 x 8s or 15 x 9s no matter which car you stick with.

With regards to how much power you want, I haven't been in a high-powered Miata, but dynos show a stock MSM to be around 150-155whp. Take that into consideration when deciding whether you want/need more than 225-250whp.

My perception is that the MSM would result in a quick Miata cheaper and more easily, but the AE would end up being the nicer, faster car with an aftermarket turbo. Of course, I'm going off of pictures, so maybe my judgment of the cars' conditions is inaccurate.
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Old 07-08-2016, 11:27 AM   #4
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I'd start swapping all the MSM specific stuff over to the AE... AE has a lighter body weight, MSM has a stronger drivetrain, bigger brakes.
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Old 07-08-2016, 11:35 AM   #5
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How much stronger, though? 10AE already came with a 6 speed and Torsen and would easily handle the power OP is talking about throwing at it. To me it's better to get the extra money that MSM cachet carries for those parts, and save the non-trivial effort it takes to swap. If the engine, turbo, and everything were plug and play into the 10AE's harness, I could see the appeal of doing that, but from what I understand it's not, so I think it's better to sell the lot of it, go Megasquirt, and get a superior aftermarket turbo setup.

I agree on the brakes, at least on the master cylinder and booster. If the 10AE has ABS, it's plug and play.
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Old 07-08-2016, 02:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingPie View Post
How much stronger, though? 10AE already came with a 6 speed and Torsen and would easily handle the power OP is talking about throwing at it. To me it's better to get the extra money that MSM cachet carries for those parts, and save the non-trivial effort it takes to swap. If the engine, turbo, and everything were plug and play into the 10AE's harness, I could see the appeal of doing that, but from what I understand it's not, so I think it's better to sell the lot of it, go Megasquirt, and get a superior aftermarket turbo setup.

I agree on the brakes, at least on the master cylinder and booster. If the 10AE has ABS, it's plug and play.
Go see Pat's compound boost build if you want a specific example, but it is more than common knowledge that MSM stuff is loads stronger. Keep those MSM axles/diff./brakes. Sell the rest of the MSM stuff (and shell) to gather funds for a nice aftermarket turbo kit for the 10AE. And you won't pay a body shop $1k to fix the perfect blue car either, which makes it a better move opposed to the MSM.

You are in a good spot with both of these cars in possession. Optimizing is key. Stock MSM power will get boring to you in short order, and before you know it, the "premium" you originally held to an MSM will be worthless to you.
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Old 07-08-2016, 03:33 PM   #7
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Several questions for the OP:

1. Where are you located?
2. Do you have a body shop hookup? Because that damage on the MSM is far from trivial. That's unibody-integrated stuff. Not remotely an easy fix, and likely has some frame damage. Look at how the body is wrinkled in front of the wheel -- that's a hard hit. This car should have been totaled.
3. Do you have a preference in terms of color or styling?

The MSM is much easier to get to 225 whp, because the turbo is already there. All you need is an ECU, intake, intercooler, and exhaust and you're there. But beyond that, you might as well start with a non-turbo car cuz you'll have to change everything anyway.

If I were in your shoes, here's what I would do:

Install the entire front end as well as the taillights from the MSM on the 10AE. This would require a bit of headlight wiring and repainting the front bumper of course.
Part out the rest of the MSM since from my perspective, the damage isn't worth fixing.

The diff ratio in the 10AE is superior, in that it's a 3.9 instead of the 4.1 in the MSM. At under 300 whp, you don't need to worry about the debatable extra strength that's supposedly present in the MSM parts.

I see full MSM engines fetch RIDICULOUS money on eBay just because they're MSM parts.

In case you're wondering where I'm coming up with all this stuff, read my build thread. haha

https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...tas-***-77788/

Last edited by turbofan; 07-08-2016 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:30 PM   #8
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By entire front end, Turbofan would include the headlights. Of course, this would require a paint job, but it is good advice.

Turbofan... what is difference between taillights, 10AE vs MSM?
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
By entire front end, Turbofan would include the headlights. Of course, this would require a paint job, but it is good advice.

Turbofan... what is difference between taillights, 10AE vs MSM?
Yes of course, entire front end includes headlights.

Nasty old NB1 taillights:



Slick, good-looking NB2 taillights:



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Old 07-08-2016, 05:56 PM   #10
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More pics of NB2/MSM tails on 10AE:







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Old 07-08-2016, 08:06 PM   #11
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Well that is the 10AE taillight on the MSM for the moment. I was planning on running different tailights in the MSM if I keep it. I was not expecting the MSM to be totaled or not worth fixing. I do have a hook up on a good body shop around here. My friend owns it and if it weren't for me he wouldn't have passed even highschool. The car runs and drives well. I will take it to my friend and have him check and make sure the frame is straight. I guess after seeing how bad some cars are wrecked and still get fixed I was not even remotely thinking that the MSM was toast. The 10AE has a small something in the front passenger quarter panel. It almost looks like it was leaned on or something and dented in and somebody tried to push it out. I also thought that the 10AE had the 4:10 gearing just like the msm. The MSM has 132K the 10AR has 199k. Compression on the 10AE was 168-172 across all cylinders. I have not had a chance to check he MSM yet. Uhh you guys are making me sick to my stomach thinking its totaled.
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Old 07-08-2016, 08:48 PM   #12
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It's just about where it's hit. Definitely get it checked out. But from that one photo, it looks like it got hit hard in the back and the shock transferred up through the quarter panel. If that dent ahead of the rear wheel is a separate dent, not caused by the hit on the rear, then maybe the unibody is still straight.

That being said, I don't think it's straight. In the first pic you posted, the driver side rear wheel doesn't look properly centered in the wheel well.

Where are you located?
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Old 07-08-2016, 09:15 PM   #13
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I live in Durant OK. I am about an hour north of Dallas and about 15 min into OK.
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Old 07-08-2016, 09:21 PM   #14
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Yep, that's what confused me. The MSM had NB1 taillight in the picture. I thought NB2 had nicer units, but got thrown off.
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Old 07-08-2016, 09:26 PM   #15
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Hang on a sec... You own both cars for less than $6k total?

If that's the case, then don't cry in your cheerios too much.

Sell the MSM engine, turbo, etc as a package
Keep the MSM trans for a spare, or sell for like $1000
Sell the diff, axles and driveshaft for $1000
part the rest of the car after swapping front end onto the 10AE. or sell the complete front end cheap to me to put on my 10AE.
?????
And, as they say, Profit.
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Old 07-08-2016, 09:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
Yep, that's what confused me. The MSM had NB1 taillight in the picture. I thought NB2 had nicer units, but got thrown off.
Yeah i totally overlooked the taillight in the photo, was too focused on trying to determine the extent of damage.
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Old 07-08-2016, 09:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Hang on a sec... You own both cars for less than $6k total?

If that's the case, then don't cry in your cheerios too much.

Sell the MSM engine, turbo, etc as a package
Keep the MSM trans for a spare, or sell for like $1000
Sell the diff, axles and driveshaft for $1000
part the rest of the car after swapping front end onto the 10AE. or sell the complete front end cheap to me to put on my 10AE.
?????
And, as they say, Profit.
Yeah I am into both for 5950.
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Old 07-08-2016, 10:55 PM   #18
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BTW there is a place down by dallas called of all things mazdanissanheaven they have a lot of miatas for sale. They also have msm parts for sale if you are wanting parts.
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