Black Gold!! (Like, Really Black)
 

Buddy of mine runs a '92 with a TDR SC. Runs about 10psi. Purely a track car. His issue is that his oil turns black almost immediately (less than one track session). Leakdown is good, <5% on all cylinders.

I've had this once before on a Lycoming 360. It would turn its oil black almost immediately but all other engine indicators were good. Eventually, one of the cylinders started to show leakage and what we found was a broken compression ring that had gouged the cylinder wall enough to cause blowby.

Gary from TDR is telling my buddy that oil turning black is normal ops for a forced induction car. But my Silver car, also tracked with 10psi, never had an issue like this. And I keep coming back to that aircraft engine. I do know that oil on diesel engines turns black quickly and it's normal there.

So, what say you gayz? Is this normal or something to be concerned about?

Have you had the oil analyzed? Oil that quickly turns dark could be a sign of the detergent pack cleaning out an icky motor. But without 3rd party analysis, everything is conjecture.

I wouldn't take anything Gary from TDR says seriously.

I doubt oil turning black almost immediately is normal. It is becoming contaminated somehow, although how is the real question. I second oil analysis, need to find out what it is that is turning it black.

What kind of oil? Synthetic?

Gary is dead fucking wrong.

The MSM and our current 95 took about 2500 miles to even really turn brown from an amber.

Most of the cars that turn oil black immediately i've seen are running really damn rich and diluting the oil with fuel.

He's running Motul. It's a really fresh engine (~1000 track miles), so it's definitely not sludge. It's got an MS, but my buddy is hesitant to tune it (relying on Gary's dyno tuning, which, in my opinion, already cost him one engine . . . did I mention the fresh engine?).

I'm confused. Gary isn't a tuning wizard?

Apparently so. He is well-respected in the DFW area. And he makes some trick parts. Everybody makes mistakes though. Plus, my bud is not exactly a pussyfoot (Solo Nats type).

Chaotic neutral?

Between this and Stoly's thread I think Gary should stick to AFPRs and Powercards.

Note that the TDR I'm talking about is "Track Dog Racing," not "Tuning Done Right."

The more we hear, the less a distinction is actually needed.

My 40 year old datsun doesn't even turn the oil black, and it's currently running a junkyard l28et from a 280zx turbo. Thing looked like a titanic find.

Speaking of Black Gold and 280zx...

That might be the best commercial ever.

Well I've got two things to mention.

Motul is a non-detergent racing oil. It is meant to be changed every weekend. It will be good for a couple of hours of run time and that is it. Any other schedule is wrong. It also will not protect against the propagation of other bad things besides the carbon.

Your friend can switch to a proper oil for his habits or switch habits to match his choice of oil. Rotella is high detergent because diesels burn dirty.

Second, Gary (or am I thinking of the guy from FFS?) has proven himself to understand less about tuning and the operating principles of the internal combustion engine than half of the mouth breathers on CR. To allow him to "tune" a car is foolish. To do it and not check EVERYTHING he touched right behind him is crazy. To then flog the car competitively without having verified the tune AFTER HAVING ALLOWED ONE TO BLOW UP ALREADY is reaping what you sow.

TDR motto - when you don't know what you are doing, make it pig rich and collect the check.
^And that's the other reason for the sooty oil.

HDEO's run high with detergents and will turn dark sooner that passenger car oils. Color means its doing its job. Run a cycle of it, drain refill and see if it clears up the darkness

A good oil analysis would be best though.

Didn't know that about the Motul. I use Rotella and recommended that to him. Especially from a cost standpoint if you're changing oil every event (which is what he's been doing lately). I usually go 2 or 3 events on a Rotella change. I really need to start doing oil analyses myself.

As far as HDEO's turning dark more quickly because of detergency, true enough for diesel engines, older engines with a lot of gunk or engines that aren't running clean for some reason (rich, ring issue, whatever). But with a fresh, clean running gasoline engine, I've not noticed that it turns dark more quickly. I've been using Rotella for a couple of years now.

I know that my motorcycles (motocross) turn the oil dark after 1 heat cycle. Everything i have read says it's pretty normal.

I'm not sure what the gearshift grab is for...

Isn't that john Holmes? Lol

TDR = Tuning Done "Right" = Jay & Co. Florida. Tunes NC ECUs to remove built in protections, run pig rich, belch black smoke and blow up. Then convinces them to buy motors from them, thus perpetuating the circle of life.

TDR = TrackDog Racing = A Gary. Texas. See: CR "more money than sense" Stoly 1.6 IRTB build fame. Apparently also blows up customer motors.

FFS = FAstForward Superchargers = Tom the yo-yo master. Arizona. Thinks fuel is a better at cooling an intake charge than an air to air intercooler. Believes pushing an MP62 to 150-175% beyond its manufacture rated redline is a solid base for product design.

Someone correct me if I got any of that wrong, I'm still learning.

The only vehicle I've ever had that "immediately" turned the oil black is my FE big block powered 74 F250. It does this because bad rings and stupid rich. I would seriously consider leakdown and compression on this motor, and possibly confirming the wideband reading with a different wideband, if possible. Something is getting into that oil, and my money is crap getting past the rings.

But hey, what do I know? :party:

Completely on point.

tr00f.org

I've yet to see a FI miata or otherwise turn oil black within hours. Gary should be tuning more ITB equipped 1.6's owned by stubborn old fluffers with literally more money than brains.

:laugh: right????

rings or valve seals

Well, we all like the "rest of the story" don't we?

My friend had tracked his '92 for years normally aspirated without issue. But, he wanted more powah!!

So, he took it to TDR to install a SC. On the first day my friend had it at the track, it blew a piston (blowby filled the catch can until it overflowed -- my friend pitted because the car was feeling "loose." There was oil all over the engine bay).

TDR rebuilt the engine for him (I don't know the financial details) and put in some lower-compression forged pistons (probably Supertech 8.4s). I got to see the original pistons. They looked like they had been subjected to an industrial sand blaster shooting heavy grit. Every one of them. At least one of the pistons had broken ring lands. TDRs story? "Looks like old detonation damage." Geeez.

The kicker? Engine was making sub-140RWHP when it blew.

I'm a fan.

Zoinks.

That's actually pretty hard to do. You have to REALLY SUCK at tuning to do that. I would imagine a stock Miata spark table, premium fuel, and a rich tune could keep you out of detonation at those power levels with anything other than a cold side heat pump supercharger. And even then... sheesh!

Is your buddy running a stupid side cold side unit?


So, TDR and TDR destroy engines and For Fuck's Sake is a yo-yo? Got it.
I have a terrible time keeping my m.net gurus straight. I don't ever go over there.

It's on the hot side with an IC. Not sure if it's a 45 or 62. It is a 1.6.

He's pretty fed up (understandable). He's watching the K swap threads with interest.