Differences on Mazdaspeed miatas vs the normal ones
 

I'm mainly thinking about engine wise. I've read up on turbocharging the ordinary miatas for a few weeks now and what needs to be beefed up. But I just got offered a 2004 mazdaspeed miata for my audi and some money in my pocket.

But I've got questions about the internals of the MSM. Does it have stronger rods and pistons? does the ECU play nice with more boost/bigger injectors? and what turbo flange do they come with stock? Only reason I'm asking here is because I find relatively little info on the mazdaspeed vs the NB and NA.


Thanks in advance

Subbed curious my self.

The MSM is great if you will be happy with 200WHP because and intake and exhaust will get you there. People do however complain about a hesitation around 4.5K rpm before the power sets inn. I found it slightly annoying as well.

Engine is basically a 99 non vvt, with ports for oil\water for turbo. No forged anything and relatively weak rods. Rods are the weakest and will give in somewhere between 250-300whp.

It has a 6 speed and torsen which is nice. Rear end is 4.10 which sucks for everyday driving. I have swapped a 3.63 in mine. Which is nice. ;)

It has a IHI RHF5 turbo which spools early and despite what some people claim is a almost bulletproof unit. It runs out of steam somewhere between 12-15 psi in a standard MSM application. No aftermarket direct replacement as the flange is IHI/mazda specific.

Point is, if you want more than 200whp which you probably will after a while you will have to replace everything that is the MSM besides the 6speed and the torsen rear end. Better off just buying a standard NB and modifying it with the turbo parts needed for your power goals.

I am happy with mine, but have replaced all MSM specific parts except turbo and internals, but have plans for those too.

Thank you so much for this answer. It helped me a lot. I've decided to wait until the Audi sells and buy a miata in Germany and drive it home. (they're cheap as dirt over there). My original plan consisted of a turbo build with stronger pistons and rods, and since the MSM doesn't have any stronger rods then the cheaper NB is a much better option money wise.

Get a 2001+ NB sport. (NB Facelift)

In europe that should give you a 6speed, torsen rear end with either 3.9 or 3.63 gearing (seem to be a slight debate on this) the bigger sport brakes which will handle the car on the street at just about any power level and the most factory bracing. Basically same as MSM with vvt head on motor, but no turbo...

Probably also leather seats, cloth top, bose stereo and many other non-essentil upgrades that is resellable depending on goal.

This is what I would use if I were to build a NB miata again. A 09+ NC with supercharger is most likely what I actually will build when and if the time comes to start over.

It's all relative in the end. With the MSM, some parts like the turbo and suspension, can be sold after removal to recover other costs.

Repeating what was already said, the engine is a 99/00 engine without VICS (VVT was 01-05..variable vale timing. The VICS is veriable intake resonance...aka butterflys and runners in the intake manifold). So the rods will not hold over 300rwhp. But you'd be surprised by a 250rwhp MX-5...it's not as slow as you think. A very good tune will prolong the magic, but it's not really known how much. It wouldn't be hard to swap the turbo for a better setup (FM or custom) and still have the ECU running everything. The stock ECU can handle up to 315cc injectors over the stock 240cc...a flashed unit can support whatever you want.

The ECU is like a petulant child, but can be reflashed by BEGi to smooth it out.
The steering rack adds about 6ft to the turning radius compared to a regular NB.
The 4.1 rear gear sucks with the 6spd and lower 6.5k redline. Some people swap to the 5spd (the 94-97 cars are 5spd + 4.1), but that's kinda dumb considering we all know the 5spd is weaker.
The MSM brakes and extra chassis bracing are good.
The MSM comes with a few model-specific details that are nice...like color, gauges, headlights, spoiler,front lip,rear lip, seats, shiftknob/parking brake handle, cool rear mirror cover..among other things.

If I were starting with a MSM, I would-
-swap the steering rack for a normal NB one
-Reflash the ECU for 12psi
-replace the rearend with a 3.9 torsen
-replace suspension
-larger injectors
-do typical intake/exhaust/intercooler/boost control mods
This will net you ~220rwhp, nice gearing, good handling and be a reliable car all day long.

thanks for your input Doppelgänger. Looks like I'll have to go back to the drawing board and see which one suits me better. Shipping heavy parts to Iceland will rape my wallet.

BTW, your car looks very nice. I'd love to have something like it.

get a NA, mod the shit outta the motor. With close to 10G, I bet your car can fly

I agree with pretty much every Dopple said except this
For basically the same price you can have a full standalone (MS2) and you know, actually tune it instead of relying upon someone who has never even seen your car guessing at how much fuel is required.

The stock ECU is borderline dangerous, it runs very lean up until 5500 and then goes rich. I installed a wideband O2 before my MS2 arrived and was appalled at just how lean the thing ran. Ended up unplugging the TPS for a few months and had it running rich all over the place. Figured that was better than burning up a piston.

You can buy aftermarket bracing that will do as good or better of a job than what comes on a MSM. Brakes are the same on any NB with sport suspension

If my MSM was totaled tomorrow I'd very likely end up with a pre-OBD2 and duplicate hustler's turbo setup. Biannual emissions inspections suck ass.

The MSM is by far the best looking Miata Mazda ever offered for sale. Lowering slightly and installing some 225x45x15 definitely helps too.

MSM is really sexy, I love the style but I wouldn't spend 12G on a miata :\

Do you have a log with some data from this dangerous leanness??

I`ve never heard of anyone getting detonation on the stock ecu no matter how lean they claim it goes or how bad gas they use...

I`m not questioning if it goes lean, there is a definate fueling issue that develops with the use of aftermarket intake and exhaust, it`s just that I don`t think it`s that dangerously lean that people thinks...

There is a lot of myth and misconceptions around this car which is fuelled a lot by the people of m.net and m-speed.com who seems to know everything and some of those threads quickly gets to 30+ pages of facepalm...

Agree that the reflash is waste of money at current time. I really want it to work, as a proper running msm at 15 psi would be a pretty nice street car. With all drivability intact and none of the quirks of aftermarket ecus...

While I agree with the ECU/MS comments, I try to think of the people who might not want to go that route right off the bat. A reflashed ECU can be sold for a decent return to upgrade to a MS or anything else ;)
After driving a car with the flashed ECU, I'd recommend it to those who want to pass inspection and want to fill the gap Mazda left with the tuning.

Injectors, Megasquirt, E85 and basic bolt-ons, more fun than should be allowed, with very minimal outlay of money and time, and make considerably more than 200whp.

Well that's obvious....too bad the IHI turbo isn't good for much more than 230-240rwhp

Another option for the MSM - BNR Supercars upgraded turbo.
 

FWIW, you can upgrade the stock turbo to a larger unit and keep the stock manifold. and exhaust. You would, of course, need injectors, an upgraded ECU, and then a new motor, or at the very least rods. ;)

BNR Supercars MS Miata upgraded turbo.

Link to MS Miata forum posting regrading the BNR turbo.

If you don't mind driving on the wrong side, Miatas are stupidly cheap in the UK (01-05 sport with VVT, 6sp, 3.363, big brakes etc for £2-3000). But driving it home is not that easy :)

What can you get away with inspection-vise in Iceland (when it's not an Artic Truck)?

I work at Icelandair so having the miata flown home is actually not that hard. But RHD car would mean that I would have a hard time even giving the car away if I decide it has to go.
There is an abundance of them in Germany so prices are pretty reasonable. Just check mobile.de. I even found a 10year anniversary edition car with 90k miles for 3000euros. but a parts car from the UK might be doable though ;)

Yep, it is too bad.

What do you guys make of the shot-peened gears in the MSM 6-speed? Significant bump in strength or marketing material?

Nope, didn't see a point with a MS2 on the way and having no means of logging MAP/RPM/AFR on one chart. Stock ECU is supposed to pull timing when knock is detected so I wouldn't expect to hear of massive amounts of detonation.

Don't get me wrong, the MSM is a fantastic car and a great platform to learn on, it's just not without a lot of compromises.

I personally have not seen any solid evidence that the MSM 6-speeds were the only 6 speeds shot-peened. Yes, the MSM was the first miata to have shot-peened gears mentioned, but as far as I know, the part numbers for the gears are identical through the years.

I never really looked too much into the BNR upgraded turbos. I understand that they are probably not the best option but does anyone know how well they spool and perform. Would not be a bad path for someone who doesn't want to have to change out the manifold and downpipe. The prices are decent if they perform well considering it would be a pretty much new turbo and you would not need to use new fittings or anything.

I heard that there are ppl out there that have hit 250 wtq on an msm turbo on e85. If you need more power than a stock block will live comfortably at, might as well look elsewhere anyway. The stock turbos aren't that bad tuned properly, doesn't spool with a garret, but they do pretty well.... And you actually can get pretty far w/ rx8 injectors on e85 if you're ok w/ way over recommended duty cycles, lol.

Without a modded turbo? Must have been way off the efficiency island in boost.

well duh, now you're just post whoring, lol.

I agree with all the posters who said a full ECU is better than the BEGI reflash. But that's because my definition of "better" means something that I can tweak. What's nice about the BEGI reflash, according to a few people I know who have it, is that you get a tune in line with what Mazda "should have" delivered from the factory -- while retaining OBDII -- and you don't have all the constant ECU tuning conundrums. :)

However, there are two band-aides that work wonders for an MSM, especially one with an aftermarket intake and turboback: 1., O2 clamp (FM or OlderGuy); 2. replacing the stock boost solenoid with an aftermarket Bosch unit (the solenoid is the root of the infamous MSM "bog" -- the aftermarket solenoid doesn't have that problem and switches faster into closed loop.)

But I have to confess that what I like best about my MSM is the styling. A lot of people are surprised when they ask me what it is and I say it's a Miata. A lot of people also assume it's been lowered, that I have a body kit, that the metallic flake paint is custom, and that the wheels (albeit heavy) are also aftermarket Nope -- that's all bone-stock.

A manual boost control is an upgrade but the rest of this statement is simply inaccurate.

Noooo, I didn't mean the boost controller. Just because I bought an MSM ("Miata turbo for dummies") doesn't mean I am that clueless. :)

I'm talking about one specific solenoid in the MSM hose layout which is responsible for that car's notorious "bog" problem.

BTW, as for the boost * controller *, the stock unit is electronic. But that is a whole different subject.

The boost solenoid has nothing to do with the bog. It is the ecu. The solenoid is just an electronic valve that is completely controlled by the ecu. I have an MSM and i have replaced the stock boost solenoid with an mbc and that alone makes no difference. The only thing besides an O2 signal modifier that seems to be effective while retaining the stock ecu is moving the MAF just before the throttle body instead of pre turbo.

No no no no no no.

Maybe I'm technically incorrect to call it the "boost" solenoid, but the one I'm talking about is NOT the ebc. Whole different thing.

I'm talking about this: Avoiding the BOG - Solenoid Valve cleaning and maintenance

Here's the thread discussing the aftermarket part: http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/in...c,14858.0.html

Granted, the MSM ECU tune stinks, but years of MSM owners' real-world driving resulted in the finding that the solenoid in question can simply be replaced cleaned and/or replaced by a better one, thereby solving that particular problem. The ECU acting weird and "causing" the infamous MSM bog is a * symptom * of the problem.

O2 signal mod, while effective on an MSM, has NOTHING to do with the MSM bog problem. Ryan G hasn't done his homework. O2 clamp as MT folks know is related to switching from open loop to closed and not having the car pull fuel when there's more air coming through the intake than the stock computer expects to see.

Moving MAF = nutty talk.

We may be talking about two entirely different things. Moving the MAF will help with the hesitation that the MSM experiences before 5K. It changes the way the ecu is reading air flow by putting it post turbo so it reads boost. This smooths the transition from no power to ALLOFIT after 5k. There is a whole kit to do this on that same site designed by Joe Mazda. I have it on mine and it does indeed work.

A mass air flow sensor reads AIRFLOW, not boost.

and instead of dicking with all this stupid band aid mumbo jumbo, lets all just agree that replacing the stock ECU and bcs with proper aftermarket units is the REAL fix to all the bog problems.

I'm aware. I meant it is reading the airflow that is subject to boost. I know the actual unit it is measuring does not change. The location and conditions from which it is reading is changed.

I agree. Just sayin'....

Right. What I'm talking about is "the bog" infamous in MSM circles. Whoooole other thing.

I agree that you should replace the ecu. I have a rev ems2 that I just haven't gotten around to installing which makes me sad.