Differences on Mazdaspeed miatas vs the normal ones - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


General Miata Chat A place to talk about anything Miata

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-20-2012, 05:16 AM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 417
Total Cats: 53
Default Differences on Mazdaspeed miatas vs the normal ones

I'm mainly thinking about engine wise. I've read up on turbocharging the ordinary miatas for a few weeks now and what needs to be beefed up. But I just got offered a 2004 mazdaspeed miata for my audi and some money in my pocket.

But I've got questions about the internals of the MSM. Does it have stronger rods and pistons? does the ECU play nice with more boost/bigger injectors? and what turbo flange do they come with stock? Only reason I'm asking here is because I find relatively little info on the mazdaspeed vs the NB and NA.


Thanks in advance
G3ML1NGZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 06:29 AM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
triple88a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,131
Total Cats: 598
Default

Subbed curious my self.
triple88a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 07:55 AM   #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 129
Total Cats: 12
Default

The MSM is great if you will be happy with 200WHP because and intake and exhaust will get you there. People do however complain about a hesitation around 4.5K rpm before the power sets inn. I found it slightly annoying as well.

Engine is basically a 99 non vvt, with ports for oil\water for turbo. No forged anything and relatively weak rods. Rods are the weakest and will give in somewhere between 250-300whp.

It has a 6 speed and torsen which is nice. Rear end is 4.10 which sucks for everyday driving. I have swapped a 3.63 in mine. Which is nice.

It has a IHI RHF5 turbo which spools early and despite what some people claim is a almost bulletproof unit. It runs out of steam somewhere between 12-15 psi in a standard MSM application. No aftermarket direct replacement as the flange is IHI/mazda specific.

Point is, if you want more than 200whp which you probably will after a while you will have to replace everything that is the MSM besides the 6speed and the torsen rear end. Better off just buying a standard NB and modifying it with the turbo parts needed for your power goals.

I am happy with mine, but have replaced all MSM specific parts except turbo and internals, but have plans for those too.
lassi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 08:25 AM   #4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 417
Total Cats: 53
Default

Thank you so much for this answer. It helped me a lot. I've decided to wait until the Audi sells and buy a miata in Germany and drive it home. (they're cheap as dirt over there). My original plan consisted of a turbo build with stronger pistons and rods, and since the MSM doesn't have any stronger rods then the cheaper NB is a much better option money wise.
G3ML1NGZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 09:02 AM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 129
Total Cats: 12
Default

Get a 2001+ NB sport. (NB Facelift)

In europe that should give you a 6speed, torsen rear end with either 3.9 or 3.63 gearing (seem to be a slight debate on this) the bigger sport brakes which will handle the car on the street at just about any power level and the most factory bracing. Basically same as MSM with vvt head on motor, but no turbo...

Probably also leather seats, cloth top, bose stereo and many other non-essentil upgrades that is resellable depending on goal.

This is what I would use if I were to build a NB miata again. A 09+ NC with supercharger is most likely what I actually will build when and if the time comes to start over.
lassi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 10:21 AM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

It's all relative in the end. With the MSM, some parts like the turbo and suspension, can be sold after removal to recover other costs.

Repeating what was already said, the engine is a 99/00 engine without VICS (VVT was 01-05..variable vale timing. The VICS is veriable intake resonance...aka butterflys and runners in the intake manifold). So the rods will not hold over 300rwhp. But you'd be surprised by a 250rwhp MX-5...it's not as slow as you think. A very good tune will prolong the magic, but it's not really known how much. It wouldn't be hard to swap the turbo for a better setup (FM or custom) and still have the ECU running everything. The stock ECU can handle up to 315cc injectors over the stock 240cc...a flashed unit can support whatever you want.

The ECU is like a petulant child, but can be reflashed by BEGi to smooth it out.
The steering rack adds about 6ft to the turning radius compared to a regular NB.
The 4.1 rear gear sucks with the 6spd and lower 6.5k redline. Some people swap to the 5spd (the 94-97 cars are 5spd + 4.1), but that's kinda dumb considering we all know the 5spd is weaker.
The MSM brakes and extra chassis bracing are good.
The MSM comes with a few model-specific details that are nice...like color, gauges, headlights, spoiler,front lip,rear lip, seats, shiftknob/parking brake handle, cool rear mirror cover..among other things.

If I were starting with a MSM, I would-
-swap the steering rack for a normal NB one
-Reflash the ECU for 12psi
-replace the rearend with a 3.9 torsen
-replace suspension
-larger injectors
-do typical intake/exhaust/intercooler/boost control mods
This will net you ~220rwhp, nice gearing, good handling and be a reliable car all day long.
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2012, 02:44 PM   #7
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 417
Total Cats: 53
Default

thanks for your input Doppelgänger. Looks like I'll have to go back to the drawing board and see which one suits me better. Shipping heavy parts to Iceland will rape my wallet.

BTW, your car looks very nice. I'd love to have something like it.
G3ML1NGZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 02:08 AM   #8
Newb
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 22
Total Cats: -8
Default

get a NA, mod the **** outta the motor. With close to 10G, I bet your car can fly
devilxavierz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 02:24 AM   #9
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: STL
Posts: 528
Total Cats: 24
Default

I agree with pretty much every Dopple said except this
Quote:
-Reflash the ECU for 12psi
For basically the same price you can have a full standalone (MS2) and you know, actually tune it instead of relying upon someone who has never even seen your car guessing at how much fuel is required.

The stock ECU is borderline dangerous, it runs very lean up until 5500 and then goes rich. I installed a wideband O2 before my MS2 arrived and was appalled at just how lean the thing ran. Ended up unplugging the TPS for a few months and had it running rich all over the place. Figured that was better than burning up a piston.

You can buy aftermarket bracing that will do as good or better of a job than what comes on a MSM. Brakes are the same on any NB with sport suspension

If my MSM was totaled tomorrow I'd very likely end up with a pre-OBD2 and duplicate hustler's turbo setup. Biannual emissions inspections suck ***.

The MSM is by far the best looking Miata Mazda ever offered for sale. Lowering slightly and installing some 225x45x15 definitely helps too.
midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 03:33 AM   #10
Newb
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 22
Total Cats: -8
Default

MSM is really sexy, I love the style but I wouldn't spend 12G on a miata :\
devilxavierz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 03:45 AM   #11
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bergen, Norway
Posts: 129
Total Cats: 12
Default

Do you have a log with some data from this dangerous leanness??

I`ve never heard of anyone getting detonation on the stock ecu no matter how lean they claim it goes or how bad gas they use...

I`m not questioning if it goes lean, there is a definate fueling issue that develops with the use of aftermarket intake and exhaust, it`s just that I don`t think it`s that dangerously lean that people thinks...

There is a lot of myth and misconceptions around this car which is fuelled a lot by the people of m.net and m-speed.com who seems to know everything and some of those threads quickly gets to 30+ pages of facepalm...

Agree that the reflash is waste of money at current time. I really want it to work, as a proper running msm at 15 psi would be a pretty nice street car. With all drivability intact and none of the quirks of aftermarket ecus...
lassi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 12:38 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midpack View Post
I agree with pretty much every Dopple said except this

For basically the same price you can have a full standalone (MS2) and you know, actually tune it instead of relying upon someone who has never even seen your car guessing at how much fuel is required.

The stock ECU is borderline dangerous, it runs very lean up until 5500 and then goes rich. I installed a wideband O2 before my MS2 arrived and was appalled at just how lean the thing ran. Ended up unplugging the TPS for a few months and had it running rich all over the place. Figured that was better than burning up a piston.

You can buy aftermarket bracing that will do as good or better of a job than what comes on a MSM. Brakes are the same on any NB with sport suspension

If my MSM was totaled tomorrow I'd very likely end up with a pre-OBD2 and duplicate hustler's turbo setup. Biannual emissions inspections suck ***.

The MSM is by far the best looking Miata Mazda ever offered for sale. Lowering slightly and installing some 225x45x15 definitely helps too.
While I agree with the ECU/MS comments, I try to think of the people who might not want to go that route right off the bat. A reflashed ECU can be sold for a decent return to upgrade to a MS or anything else
After driving a car with the flashed ECU, I'd recommend it to those who want to pass inspection and want to fill the gap Mazda left with the tuning.
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 01:08 PM   #13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Searcy, AR
Posts: 149
Total Cats: -2
Default

Injectors, Megasquirt, E85 and basic bolt-ons, more fun than should be allowed, with very minimal outlay of money and time, and make considerably more than 200whp.
FrankL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

Well that's obvious....too bad the IHI turbo isn't good for much more than 230-240rwhp
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 03:16 PM   #15
Newb
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Webb City, MO
Posts: 17
Total Cats: 0
Default Another option for the MSM - BNR Supercars upgraded turbo.

FWIW, you can upgrade the stock turbo to a larger unit and keep the stock manifold. and exhaust. You would, of course, need injectors, an upgraded ECU, and then a new motor, or at the very least rods.

BNR Supercars MS Miata upgraded turbo.

Link to MS Miata forum posting regrading the BNR turbo.
yosso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 03:22 PM   #16
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,391
Total Cats: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by G3ML1NGZ View Post
Shipping heavy parts to Iceland will rape my wallet.
If you don't mind driving on the wrong side, Miatas are stupidly cheap in the UK (01-05 sport with VVT, 6sp, 3.363, big brakes etc for £2-3000). But driving it home is not that easy

What can you get away with inspection-vise in Iceland (when it's not an Artic Truck)?
NiklasFalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 04:28 PM   #17
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 417
Total Cats: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
If you don't mind driving on the wrong side, Miatas are stupidly cheap in the UK (01-05 sport with VVT, 6sp, 3.363, big brakes etc for £2-3000). But driving it home is not that easy

What can you get away with inspection-vise in Iceland (when it's not an Artic Truck)?
I work at Icelandair so having the miata flown home is actually not that hard. But RHD car would mean that I would have a hard time even giving the car away if I decide it has to go.
There is an abundance of them in Germany so prices are pretty reasonable. Just check mobile.de. I even found a 10year anniversary edition car with 90k miles for 3000euros. but a parts car from the UK might be doable though
G3ML1NGZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 04:47 PM   #18
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Searcy, AR
Posts: 149
Total Cats: -2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
Well that's obvious....too bad the IHI turbo isn't good for much more than 230-240rwhp
Yep, it is too bad.
FrankL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 07:41 PM   #19
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,008
Total Cats: 583
Default

What do you guys make of the shot-peened gears in the MSM 6-speed? Significant bump in strength or marketing material?
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2012, 09:14 PM   #20
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: STL
Posts: 528
Total Cats: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lassi View Post
Do you have a log with some data from this dangerous leanness??

I`ve never heard of anyone getting detonation on the stock ecu no matter how lean they claim it goes or how bad gas they use...
Nope, didn't see a point with a MS2 on the way and having no means of logging MAP/RPM/AFR on one chart. Stock ECU is supposed to pull timing when knock is detected so I wouldn't expect to hear of massive amounts of detonation.

Don't get me wrong, the MSM is a fantastic car and a great platform to learn on, it's just not without a lot of compromises.
midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[CT] 1999 Mazda Miata 10th Anniversary Edition - $5800 Jike Spingleton Cars for sale/trade 3 09-20-2016 05:33 PM
Mazdaspeed 2.0L C-Spec ITB motor w/ accessories graexodus Miata parts for sale/trade 9 10-25-2015 04:34 PM
FS/FT: 03.5 Mazdaspeed Protege leatherface24 Cars for sale/trade 15 10-16-2015 12:35 PM
MS PNP requires reading and following directions??? satisfied MEGAsquirt 141 10-06-2015 11:44 AM
starting issue Johnny Tater Engine Performance 3 09-23-2015 07:10 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:42 AM.