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Old 06-25-2008, 10:45 AM   #1
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Default E85 conversion - possible gains (1.8 NA) ?

Will a E85 conversion give 15 - 20 hp gain for a 1.8 NA car ?

Given that stock internals are used - conversion should include
- New Enigne Managemet ( MS )
- Head shave
- Bigger injectors
- Raised fuel pressure
- Dyno-time

Perhaps it's difficult to estimate gains
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:52 AM   #2
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The way I understand it, on a NA car, the benefit of E85 is that it is well over100 octane so you can run higher compression. I'd think in addition to a head shave, you will need to go to higher compression pistons as well. I'd think you would want to get up to 11:1 compression for a worthwhile improvement.

My old 72 Dodge Colt GT4 car (Mitsubishi) had a 1.6L and ran 12.5:1 with a high lift cam, worked head, 4 into 1 header and twin Solex carbs on 110 octane. Stock was 80 bhp and was 148bhp when done.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:06 AM   #3
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ON stock car with E85 only thing you that you might be able to do is like mentioned above, run higher compression and little more aggressive timing.

But nothing to make a significant change in NA mode. If anything you will just loose fuel economy since you need roughly 30% more of E85 fuel to make combustion.

On a boosted car it's a whole different story. Running around 108 Octane, lets you keep stock timing. Which is a big thing on boosted cars. A lot of people Don't realize how much HP you can squeeze out by just tuning perfect timing it self.

I run E85 on my 240 and instead of bumping timing down, I rose it in a few places especially at mean best TQ, and you feel the kick like a horse that just nailed you in the face.
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Old 06-25-2008, 11:39 AM   #4
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It will corrode your fuel system FAST. And it leaves excessive build-up in the engine. It takes more E85 to make the same power as C16. The price difference is quickly erased when you look at the bigger maintenance costs of running E85 vs C16. Just install an Alcohol/Water Injection kit and it will save you money, and give the same bump in timing. Hopefully you have more E85 pumps where you live, cause we only have 2 stations in the DFW area that sell it, and they are both in far N. Dallas. So in my opinion, E85 isn't worth it when you compare the costs of alternatives.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:10 PM   #5
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uhm Ray don't mean to say your wrong but what you said about corroding and leaving excessive build up in engine is not 100% correct.

Iv been running mine for a lil over a year now and no problems.

It only becomes a problem when you leave it there for a longer period of time. Then it will become this weird green jelly stuff.

One good way to prevent that though is every 3rd or so fill up put in a little of Marvel Mystery Oil About 4oz per tank. It works ****** wonders and it even helps with ping.



P.S. You might want to get a different fuel pump too. I run the MSD external unit, and its works like a charm.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:21 PM   #6
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Yayy, a little gas savings but a whole lot of extra food costs. I love E85. As much as I like the $12 steaks at the grocery store that used to cost $8.

E85 is complete bullshit for everyone--except for the farmers and their powerful lobbyists.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:36 PM   #7
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OK thanks for input
In Sweden ( where I live ) E85 is used more and more. Even race cars like Porsche GT3, Camaro cup, Saloon cars are all using E85 with proven power gains. Actually some of the race tracks now requrie E85 as fuel to keep it as clean as possblie.

"
My old 72 Dodge Colt GT4 car (Mitsubishi) had a 1.6L and ran 12.5:1 with a high lift cam, worked head, 4 into 1 header and twin Solex carbs on 110 octane. Stock was 80 bhp and was 148bhp when done. "

On E85 ?
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:51 PM   #8
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Well honestly, I don't see how you save any money with E85? Like mentioned before sure it maybe be cheaper at the pump, but at the same time you use about 30% more of it to achieve the same combustion levels, so your fuel economy suffers, meaning more trips to the pump.

Quick example. With normal gas your afrs should be around 14.7 ad idle or cruising with E85 try something like 9.3 heh.

I strictly use E85 cause its a cheaper way of getting performance fuel like Osbeck mentioned.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:14 PM   #9
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Remote MX5, did you kill your stock pump on the E85, and that's why you're running the MSD, or are you doing it for capacity?

I'm tossing the conversion idea around and want to get potential problems worked out before they arise.



There's a good post on NASIOC on the E85 stuff.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

The guy there has been running E85 for 2 years on his Walbro pump. Because of your post, I'm wondering if the Denso is up to the task.
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Old 06-25-2008, 04:57 PM   #10
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Actually I dumped the stock pump cause it was 15 years old heh. But at the same time I hear people running the walbro in tank pumps with out any problems.

But I just wanted to be safe, plus a lil over a year ago when I was doing this not many people have done it yet, and I heard rumors that normal in tank pumps get messed up at a much quicker rate with E-85 so I got the MSD unit cause they told me it would be fine with E85.

But like you I have been reading now lately about people running the intake walbro's with out any problems.
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Old 06-25-2008, 08:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim Osbeck View Post
"
My old 72 Dodge Colt GT4 car (Mitsubishi) had a 1.6L and ran 12.5:1 with a high lift cam, worked head, 4 into 1 header and twin Solex carbs on 110 octane. Stock was 80 bhp and was 148bhp when done. "

On E85 ?
No, on 110 octane race fuel. Similar octane, though. The octane helps on detonation or preignition on higher compression ratios.
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:23 AM   #12
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e85 is great for turbo cars and at least around here the net cost is almost the same as 93 gasoline ($3.49 vs $4.29). There is a great thread about e85 at NASIOC but be prepared to spend a couple hours reading it lol.

My opinion on e85 is thats its not the right alternative fuel for the masses (the whole food for fuel issue since its mostly corn derived), but I love it for performance reasons being a 105+ octane fuel available cheaply at the pump for my turbo car.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:18 AM   #13
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Saw this in Kansas last week! I didn't know the price difference was that big already. And regular pump gas has had as much as 10% Ethanol since the early 90's IIRC.

Name:  E85.jpg
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Also spotted some shitty gas in Amarillo:

Name:  AmarilloPissGas.jpg
Views: 766
Size:  65.9 KB

Chris
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Old 06-28-2008, 01:19 AM   #14
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Here I am with flex fuel truck with no cheap E85 to take advantage of.
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Old 06-28-2008, 12:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
Here I am with flex fuel truck with no cheap E85 to take advantage of.
You sure?
http://www.e85refueling.com/location...te=tnTennessee


There's one five miles from my house. Maybe I should put a couple gallons in on my way to the track next time.

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Old 06-28-2008, 02:16 PM   #16
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Tjena Joachim.

I have been thinking about the same thing (my car is in Sweden and I am on my way of moving home right now). as I see it there are 2 things that are killing criteria to the conversion:
- How much of the fuel system do we need to change to run E85 safely (it will corrode the rubber parts of the system).
- Can we registrate the car as an E85 car if we do the conversion.

On questions 1, I hope to have an answer soon. I am in contact with Mazda in Sweden regarding this and they have promised to get back to me with an answer soon (which realistically could be weeks, but ok). Questions nr 2 is harder one. According to Vägverkets (Swedish DMV) webpage, the answer should be yes, but I need to confirm it with some real people to believe it.

Powergains? for sure there are some, but they are not that big. But economically, it would already make a difference and it is not likely that the difference between gas and E85 will become anything else then bigger. A bonus is of course that the car would be half way ready for boost, should one want to go that terrible in-sweden-non-legal-way...

Last edited by Torkel; 06-28-2008 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:47 PM   #17
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e85 is junk and should be poured into the ocean
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:57 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
e85 is junk and should be poured into the ocean
Not so fast Magna. There's E85 (yours produced from corn) and then there's E85 (Brazil's, produced from Sugar Cane). They don't compare.

Google Brazil and Ethanol and you'll be surprised. FWIW, I was in Rio about 15 years ago and I was able to see it with my own eyes. It works.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:56 PM   #19
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Hej Torkel
Kul att du kör miata också

Torkel my primary target is to find some power gain and run a car that is more nice to the enviroment . The car I run is dedicated track car that runs in a class called Roadsport C. The regulations is very strict to internal modifications so if a E85 conversion will give me ~ 15 hp I'm happy

I'm very intrested of the answers that Mazda perhaps will provide.
Please let us know what they said.
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Old 06-28-2008, 05:03 PM   #20
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Cool. PM me some more info avout the race class, will you?

I'll keep you posted on what I find out.
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