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Old 01-17-2007, 08:35 PM   #1
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Default Easiest tuning ECU

Can someone provide direction on the best/easiest solution to provide proper fuel for a boosted miata?

I'm at 10 lbs with BEGI AFPR and Bipes and want to get to the next level safely.

Any input is great.

Thanks
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:56 PM   #2
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well best and easiest isnt the same but for me the emanage blue made the most sense.

cost, pretty damn cheap 2nd hand, and quite cheap new

performance, is capable of what I want to do and when setup right much more.

"ease", I havent tuned it yet, but the boomslang harness option really doesn't get any easier and the amount of experience here is really helpful. Also the software is easy to get.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:33 PM   #3
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I've installed and used TEC2, Autronic SMC, Autronic SM4, and AEM. I've also gathered quite a bit of info on the Hydra from FM and played with their software and maps.

TEC2 was easy to use, but it wasn't very capable. Batch-fire injection is a PITA with big injectors and high fuel pressure. Mag sensor was unreliable too.

AEM is a very feature-rich system. Lots of capability but you run into the occasional strange little bug. I hate their software, it annoys the crap out of me. It's not the kind of software you can run in your passenger seat and reach over to make a quick change to something. Want to adjust your coolant sensor trim while in a moving car? Good luck since it's 4 submenus deep.

Autronic is my favorite so far. Similar to Motec since they have shared roots. Very very smart and feature rich software that's easy to use. You can get anywhere in the system with a glance at the screen and a tap or two on the keyboard. Very fast autotune system that can even tune the engine from datalogs. Once tuned you do not have to retune to change AFR's The VE table is a real VE table so all you do is just tell it what AFR you want and it's done auto-magically. Bunches of extra inputs and outputs and it even lets you define your own functions and trims. It's the most rock-solid system I've used.

I took a long hard look at the Hydra Nemesis, but it just doesn't feel like it's done yet. For instance there's MAP based anti-lag, but no TPS based anti-lag. No traction control either. It has a lot of potential though and is great if you're only looking for fuel/spark/VICS/cam control, and comes with the support of FM.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:36 PM   #4
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link, i'd say. most support, most users. ready to go maps.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DammitBeavis View Post

Autronic is my favorite so far. Similar to Motec since they have shared roots. Very very smart and feature rich software that's easy to use. You can get anywhere in the system with a glance at the screen and a tap or two on the keyboard. Very fast autotune system that can even tune the engine from datalogs. Once tuned you do not have to retune to change AFR's The VE table is a real VE table so all you do is just tell it what AFR you want and it's done auto-magically. Bunches of extra inputs and outputs and it even lets you define your own functions and trims. It's the most rock-solid system I've used.
I've never heard of that...sounds like its nice...and more expensive than my car.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:51 PM   #6
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first person i've heard to say they dont like the Tec-II unit or call it uncapable
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Old 01-18-2007, 04:10 PM   #7
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I've never heard of that...sounds like its nice...and more expensive than my car.
If you call a dealer you'll probably get a quote between $2500 and $3K.
I got mine second-hand but NIB for $1500.

http://www.autronic.com
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Old 01-18-2007, 04:24 PM   #8
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first person i've heard to say they dont like the Tec-II unit or call it uncapable
Where should I begin....

The TEC2 only has 8x8 grids for ignition and fuel. It lacks the ability to control anything besides fuel, spark, and one extra output. You have to mount the thing under the hood where it's exposed. The screw terminals are a constant source of bad connections. The crank trigger sensor is something you need to carry a spare of. It uses batch-fire injecton which is a pain with big injectors. And starting last summer there was a 50/50 chance that it would go haywire when I sent a program update to it.

I didn't know how bad it was until I put the SMC in the Talon. Once I had a taste, I couldn't go back. I saved my pennies for a year and bought an SM4. After less than 15 minutes of tuning it runs better than the TEC2 ever did.

The TEC2 is currently lying in my garage floor under a pile of it's own wiring and sensors. The 60-2 trigger wheel and it's sensor/hardware are in a radio-shack bag. If somebody is interested I'm willing to make a deal.
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Old 01-18-2007, 05:05 PM   #9
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You seem like you know EMSs, beavis. Every used a Megasquirt?
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Old 01-18-2007, 05:11 PM   #10
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I considered megasquirt back when they were going to add ion knock sensing, but when they put the kibosh on that feature I moved on.

When sequential injection is available I'll look at it again.

You certainly can't argue with the price.
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DammitBeavis View Post
I considered megasquirt back when they were going to add ion knock sensing, but when they put the kibosh on that feature I moved on.

When sequential injection is available I'll look at it again.

I think that knocksensing has been implemented on the MS-II codebase, not sure if there's much practical experiance with it yet, but they've allegedly got knock-based retard working on the bench.

They're doing two-channel batch injection currently, but I doubt we'll see true 4 channel sequential anytime soon. The hardware just isn't there, even on the new Rev3 board. Hard enough just getting 2 channel wasted-spark ignition out of it...


That being said, it's probably going to be hard to beat the Link for ease of use. You don't really have to tune the thing even, just call FM, give them your specs, and load up the file they send you. I doubt that any other EMS vendor will ever equal them for customer support, though it's conceviable that given time they'll probably build up a similar degree of knowledge and experiance with the Hydra.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:10 PM   #12
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Yeah, everybody has knock sensing using the little microphones that screw into the block/head/intake/etc...

Ion knock sensing is better because it's not sensitive to the noise present in the engine. Had they got it working they would have the only aftermarket ECU with that feature.

Here's info:
http://www.fs.isy.liu.se/~larer/Projects/main.html
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:16 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by DammitBeavis View Post
Yeah, everybody has knock sensing using the little microphones that screw into the block/head/intake/etc...
Wish that were true... With the EMU anyway we've finally got knock logging, but there's still no automatic knock-retard, even with version 2.0. Really bummed me out...
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:28 PM   #14
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I wouldn't necessarily expect a piggyback system to have knock control, but I had just assumed that when MS dumped the ion-sense stuff that they would have just fallen back on the old microphone method.

Do they not have that working yet? That's really one of the prerequisites for me.

I suppose you could always add in a J&S Safeguard, but that would cost as much or more than the MS.
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Old 01-18-2007, 07:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DammitBeavis View Post
I wouldn't necessarily expect a piggyback system to have knock control, but I had just assumed that when MS dumped the ion-sense stuff that they would have just fallen back on the old microphone method.
I think they have. Here's the official word from the MegaManual:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/knock.htm

Their discussion of the GM threshold detector strikes me as a bit odd, but I'd guess that something like the FM knock sensor along with a simple op-amp circuit could be made to work. The MS appears to have a rich selection of values concerning threshold and noisefloor configuration.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:03 PM   #16
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Keep in mind that software and manuals should be readily available on the internet for most ECU's. That's a great way to determine ease of tuning before purchasing. You can also find some maps from other miata users, load them and figure out how the tuning is done..
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Old 01-20-2007, 11:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DammitBeavis View Post
I wouldn't necessarily expect a piggyback system to have knock control, but I had just assumed that when MS dumped the ion-sense stuff that they would have just fallen back on the old microphone method.

Do they not have that working yet? That's really one of the prerequisites for me.

I suppose you could always add in a J&S Safeguard, but that would cost as much or more than the MS.
Or you could adapt the Saab APC system. It doesn't retard timing, it cuts back on the boost when knock is sensed.
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Old 01-21-2007, 01:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by DammitBeavis View Post
Where should I begin....

The TEC2 only has 8x8 grids for ignition and fuel. It lacks the ability to control anything besides fuel, spark, and one extra output. You have to mount the thing under the hood where it's exposed. The screw terminals are a constant source of bad connections. The crank trigger sensor is something you need to carry a spare of. It uses batch-fire injecton which is a pain with big injectors. And starting last summer there was a 50/50 chance that it would go haywire when I sent a program update to it.

I didn't know how bad it was until I put the SMC in the Talon. Once I had a taste, I couldn't go back. I saved my pennies for a year and bought an SM4. After less than 15 minutes of tuning it runs better than the TEC2 ever did.

The TEC2 is currently lying in my garage floor under a pile of it's own wiring and sensors. The 60-2 trigger wheel and it's sensor/hardware are in a radio-shack bag. If somebody is interested I'm willing to make a deal.

You ever play with the Tec3? leaps and bounds better than the 2. But still buggy at times. it worked more like the autronic.

I almost picked up an autronic from steve nichols back in the day but it was just too pricey.

I currently run the hydra and it's not a tuner's EMS. too much of it is kept secret from the end user. I dont get a complete manual and pinout with my purchase which is supposed to keep me safe. it's crap. i should get it if I want it. the software is awkward like it was written by a rookie. and the datalogging sucks *****.

i would replace it if there was something .... perfect?
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Old 01-21-2007, 02:56 AM   #19
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y8s what EMS setups have you used?
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:49 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
I currently run the hydra and it's not a tuner's EMS. too much of it is kept secret from the end user. I dont get a complete manual and pinout with my purchase which is supposed to keep me safe. it's crap. i should get it if I want it. the software is awkward like it was written by a rookie. and the datalogging sucks *****.
That sucks ***** all the way around. I was impressed with the Hydra's capabilities, especially the on board data logging and multiple spare I/Os but if I have limited control what’s the point. It's also not the first time I've read the comment about the code being rough.

Do any affordable aftermarket ECUs do ion sensing? I know Delphi was doing misfire sensing in the late 90's, I assume on GM cars (not sure). That's a good first step. I got really into this last fall when it was proposed for the MSII router board. The last I heard it took too much processing power but I can't find the post where it was announced and the exact reason given.
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