Every now and then there comes a dyno graph...
 

...that may change your priorities/direction.... We all know the specs of the LS1 motor. But, to see the dyno graph, is another thing...

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_...8_vs_stock.pdf

It's not just the peak numbers, but the torque curve from 1500rpm to redline that is pretty much all above 300. Craziness. Can you say area under the curve?

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_runs/v8_vs_FMII.pdf

Another compared to their FMII kit.

I want a V8.
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how's the traction on that thing?

saw one in real life last weekend. key phrase is 'part throttle' it can break loose in 5th. he was giving rides (i didn't get one :() but even the 250hp turboed guys got out of the car going 'aaaaaa...aahhhhhh...aaaaauhhhhh....' and staggered off.

one word: Fun

A local member here has an LS1 swap in his Miata. I think he maybe on this board can't remember.

He give test rides at a local test day. I was the first person to get a test drive so he drove a few miles before opening it up to let everything warm up. The car was crazy smooth and quiet when driving normal. It felt like a normal car just quiet and smooth. Then he opened the car up at 2K rpms and I hit my head hard enough on the stupid seat to have a headache for about 30 mins.

Drool.

can you say no gas mileage compromise compared to stock?

In a car that weighs 30% less than a corvette, I bet it'd get better than 26mpg highway.

Might not be as good as the 1.8's mileage, but I bet it'll be within 20%.

Someone figure out how to get an LS1 swapped OBD2 car to pass emissions damnit.

The guy that owns V8roasters is here in Tampa. He also belongs to the local club. His cars are unbelievable.

On the highway I'm not sure it would get better mileage than a Vette or one of the previous-gen Camaros. Those cars have a lot better drag coefficients than the Miata. Around town, though, I would expect to see better mileage.

My '95 Z28 with an LT1 and a 6 speed got ~28 on the freeway if I stayed out of it. Roughly 1650 rpm at 65 MPH. Around town I could get 20 if I really babied it. Typically it was 16-17.

I wonder how much work the traction control would be to retrofit with the swap. It saved me twice in the camaro in the rain. You don't have to use much throttle to break loose on the metal grating of a drawbridge.

Man I loved that engine.

Right... gas mileage on the freeway has almost nothing to do with weight if you're on flat ground. it doesn't take much power to maintain a steady speed whether you're in a 5000 lb caprice or a 2000 lb miata.

Why the does this idiotic comment come up in every V8 thread? I'd expect this on m.net but not here. Then there's the comment about drag coefficients. It means jack shit unless you take into account the front area of the car, which there is more of in a f-body than a Miata.

Anyway my point is you can't just write off gas mileage as being bad just because it has a V8 and the CD sucks, and who the fuck cares about gas mileage when you have a V8 miata, really? Go buy an Insight.

i wonder if its possible to go fast on the track with that much torque.

I'm guessing it would pass the Mark Donohue test on leaving rubber from the exit of every corner to the start of the next.

The answer is 14.

The question is approximately how many days would I own it before I died in it?

I guess it depends on the track, but yeah. Two different drivers took FTD at the local autocross in that car with smaller tires than they're going for now. Their times were almost even but they were FTD by four seconds.

FM has been kicking butt doing autoX in one. They say it handles great. Their system moves the engine lower and farther back that others. Keeps the roll center low and it's not that much heavier. Fender flares and some 15x9 6uls and I think you are in business.

Last autox I was at there is a guy with a 2nd gen RX7 with a 500hp vette motor in it. He puts on a hell of a show. He wins his class pretty consistently. The week before he won in the rain! Do it right and you should be able to put the power down.

that would be my dream setup, 350hp/tq sounds a bit freaky to be driving but if it can be completely controlled with your right foot, you never feel it until you want it

if/when I hit the lotto tonight, tomorrow I'm beginning the process of importing an NB coupe so that it can be coverted to LHD and getting a 400hp LS3 variant installed.

the torque is nice
the hp figures are peaky though, you only have 1000 rpms of 350 hp, rest of the time you're way below that.

any pictures of this swap? How is the weight distribution vs a turbo miata for instance?
lastly what is the cost for the swap components, ball park it, i'm curious...you know, motor/trans/tuning, accessories, pretty much all you need to finish it, A-Z

There is tons of info on engine swaps and costs on miata.net. It is not cheap if you do it right. After all one is basically replacing the entire powertrain.

But, for all the money I have spent so far on my turbo mods, and an engine build to replace a blown motor...

and it took how many liters to make this pittance of power? I just don't think it is comparable to a built turbo 2.0L money wise

Photos of the build are here:

Flyin' Miata : Projects: The V8 Miata Project

to each their own.
wayy too much work for a swap.

a turbo 2.0L will make more power and be much easier to accomplish

Me thinks you are missing the point.

I can attest that a 2.0 liter will make more power (at least more than FM's Elvis). I suspect that, all else being equal, the LSx Miata will destroy me in an autocross or on a tight track. There are a couple of sub-500 hp LS3s being installed at FM currently currently :eek3:

Doesn't matter to me though. A high-boost, high-revving 4-banger suits the Miata's personality, which is why I took this route.

ls1 miata is badass...I dont give a fuck what kind of power you can make with a built stock engine, the v8 will always be more badass. something about power/torque being EVERYWHERE and the car being so damn smooth that makes me drool when I see one.

Find me a two-liter turbo motor making 400ft.lbs at 2500rpm and 515whp and I will make you a rich man.

Attachment 208409

416ci stroker LS3, intake manifold, headers, aggressive cam, intake, tune. 91 octane, through cats.

Theres no replacement..

I am not hating on V8's, just GM. I love the VH45, and the M62B44, but the LTX/LSX motors are just behind the curve.

[QUOTE=robino;364663]the torque is nice
the hp figures are peaky though, you only have 1000 rpms of 350 hp, rest of the time you're way below that.
/QUOTE]


Big fat area under the torque curve for the win. Small tiny area under the 280 HP line in an RSX for the lose.

The LS engines are behind the curve??? How do you figure this?

Can you imagine that shit. I bet that is a one of a kind experience. That kind of torque in that light of a car. :jerkit:

My guess is you are right on the money.

Buddy of mine had a 500rwhp SC SS and got right at 22 on the highway, and around 17-18 just playing around.

LS1 motors are ridiculous. Simple, yes. But that doesn't make them any less badass.

they could be making more power than they are, but GM doesn't think like most people. The design of the LS1 isn't horrible, but it doesn't match horsepower/liter with motors such as the BMW M60B40. The one advantage it has is its compact size due to it not having overhead cams.

LOL you have it backwards.

The turbo car makes 80% of peak power from 5200-7000 RPM. That's a ratio of 1.35:1.

The V8 makes 80% of peak power from 3900 to 6050 RPM. That's a ratio of 1.55:1.

The ratio of the RPMs is what matters, not the difference.

Not to mention, the V8 makes more power than the turbo's peak from 3750 RPM to redline.

There was an article in one of the car mags (Road & Track?) a while back where they compared engine technology, output and cost. They looked at the 7.0l Z06 motor (505 hp) vs. the 6.3l AMG V8 (514 hp or so, depending upon application). The AMG motor has all the modern bells and whistles (DOHC, VVT, etc, etc), weighs more, takes up significantly more space and barely makes more power per liter than the Corvette mill. The kicker is that you can walk into any Chevy dealer and buy an LS7 engine for about 18 grand, while AMG will charge you north of 60 :eek5:

Yes, if money was no object, I'd prefer the AMG engine. The point is that Chevy did very well that motor and in many ways it is world class.

let me do ya some math here

Z06 LS7: 505HP/7L=72.14HP/L
E39 M5 S62: 395HP/4.9L=79HP/L

If GM modernized their motors they could see substantial gains with that much displacement.
I wouldn't bUy an AMG engine, not much of a Mercedes guy myself. It is surprising to see how much better the LS7 does HP/L than the LS1 though.

I can't believe I'm even getting caught up in this discussion. I didn't want to do a V8 in my Miata (doesn't suit the character of the car, IMO), I don't particularly like Chevy (I'm an import guy) and the previous generation of M5 has always been one of my dream cars.

However, I think people are losing some perspective here. A DOHC engine will always breath better than an OHV one. Twice the number of valves = better flow. Overhead Cams = less friction and more precise valve actuation. It would be crying shame if BMW engineers were not able to extract 11% more power per liter than Chevy. Personally, I would have expected better.

Chevrolet engineers purposely stayed with the OHV design, not because of lack of know-how, limited development budget or adherence to tradition. The simple reason is that this engine is much less tall and will package better. Look at the technology they did incorporate into this engine:
* All-aluminum block with forged crank and main bearing caps
* Dry sump oiling
* Titanium rods and intake valves (good for 7,000 rpm)

This is not a retro motor with archaic technology, by any standard.

well this V8 is better than this V8 which is better than this turbo 4 is all fun, but still child play, since the real baddies are the v12's :firedevil

AAHAHAHA HP/L benchracer arguments, bring it on buddy!! :jerkit: Maybe we should get a Need for Speed tournament going on here let me go put lambo doors on my s14 brb

one thing is for certain, I will never build another 4 banger motor for the miata... and I will probably never go turbo but I'd love me a LS1. Too bad my stock motor crapped out before these swaps were widely supported, otherwise I would have already done it.

anyone want to buy a build motor with 10k on it? :)

Isnt that engine only rated at like 280hp/300tq though? Yes, it is a much smaller engine displacement wise, but for probably less cost (no idea what one of those cost on the used market, and Im sure they arent nearly as easy to come by) you could have an LS1 making anywhere from 300-350hp and 325-375tq, depending on which of the million versions you find. Sure some of the engine design and technology is outdated, but it still works. Why fix it if it isnt broken? Im not a big GM fan, but I have to admit at least they make some pretty good engines.

I'm not saying that they don't make gobs of power, but it seems that most people kiss one when they go to bed at night. They are a good V8 to put in the miata due to their compact size, but as V8's go they are soso. Also I wouldn't put any of the big BMW motors into the miata, they won't fit.

Albumleaf wtf are you talking about? I am talking about a motor's efficiency, you are talking about dragons humping miatas :robert:

I agree there are better V8's out there, for sure. But for the cost, ease of finding them, and the amount of power you get from them, whats not to like? Maybe if I was rich, and was looking for a project to do myself, I would try out a V8 from something newer, maybe a Toyota V8, but seeing as I dont have the time, money, or tools to tackle a big project, I would stick to the LS and a pre-packaged kit that several people sell.

The most tragic and so terribly common thing to see on the few monsters out there that do have the v8s, be it these new LS series swaps or the 302 monsters of the past, is far too little rubber for such an epic power/torque to weight ratio.
I want sooo badly to see someone who has spent what... 10 or 15 grand on the drivetrain willing to do the flares and 9" or 10" wide wheels with real rubber that the car deserves.. such a thing may be out there but I've not seen it.
-Ryan

Specific output doesn't mean shit in the US where we don't tax displacement. Chevy's engineers were not trying to get the best HP/liter, they were trying to get the most hp/mpg and hp/$.

Almost every racing series out there has some limit on displacement so the engines that make more hp within the confines of the rules deserve more respect. It doesn't really hold up in the real world other than bench racing.

BTW, C4's are dirt cheap right now. My dad just got a 91 convertible for $6k. Yes, the interior sucks unbelievably but it's a complete car for half the cost of the swap.

LS1 miata would be SIIICK. And as for the gas mileage, my 1999 FRC corvette averaged 31mpg on a 6 hour trip home to Tennessee from Illinois. Cruising around town, I get probably anwhere from 17-20 if I BABY it.

Dude, GM did that because of packaging. Sure a DOHC variant would be sick, but it would only fit in a suburban or Hummer or something. That motor has so much potential. I'm not an expert with LSx motors, but I know they respond VERY WELL to bolt ons. The GM piece is really not that bad. I'm not fond of it's SUHC design, but for what it is, it's really well designed. If I ever put a V8 in anything where I wanted lots of power, LSx is the only motor I'd use.

yeah the LT and LS series motors really start doing wonders with bolt ons

I've never been a big believer in needing wide rubber to put the power down. Your contact patch depends upon two major factors:
1) Vehicle weight (per corner)
2) Tire pressure

Going to a wider tire makes the contact patch wider, but no bigger (tires design can affect this by a few percent either way, but the rule of thumb still stands). In my opinion, traction in a straight line depends upon the tire compound and little else. If you need more contact patch, lower tire pressures (which is what most drag racers do as a matter of course).

Of course, if you want to corner, then a wider tire (and contact patch) is an advantage. My point is that a high-power Miata that weighs within a reasonable amount of a stock car doesn't need Corvette-size rubber to put the power to the ground or to corner with aplomb.

I am not a fan of GM or anything, but c'mon guys: the engine is cheap, puts down great power, compact, simple, and responds like a raped ape to bolt ons. What the fuck more do you want? Sure go spend shitloads of money on a mercedes, bmw, etc etc and what do you get? barely better performance for 1000 times the price.....Corvette still uses leaf springs, ohv, and all the other "old technology" and still has no problems keeping up with 200k lambo's and ferrari's on the track or street.

I thought this over simplified logic was mythbusted already ... On can do simple though experiment, compare a space saving spare at 40 psi vs. a regular tire at 40 psi, jack the car down onto a clean sheet of paper...

I've said it before.... but can't find it.

2 big ass valves > 4 tiny ------y valves.

prove it

Wrong on so many levels. I won't even go there, but you sir are incorrect.

deerhunter,
i like the sound of your setup.
what would the hp/tq. be without the hydrasquirt?

thats what we call a "threadjack" You do know that you can PM the guy right? Although, im pretty sure the answer is "a bit less" since the water injection allows leaner ratios and more timing advance

Agreed, way wrong. The highest specific output piston gasoline engines (NA or FI) are multivalve engines. There are lots of examples of this.

Perhaps it has and I'm certainly open to new data if it's presented in a compelling way. I don't think, however, that comparing a space saver to a regular tire holds water. A space saver is generally made from a very durable (read: hard) compound and runs very high tire pressures (60 psi or so) so that it doesn't disintegrate when used. If the pressures are equalized, as you suggest, the limiting factor is the rubber compound. Hard will have less traction than soft.

Look at a top fuel dragster. It's rear tires are not exceptionally wide compared to the power it has to put down (certainly not 12 times wider than a Z06, for instance). It gets traction from a VERY sticky compound and low tire pressures (which gives a bigger footprint). Also consider that as it accelerates, the tire grows due to centripetal force, which has the effect of changing the shape of the contact patch (becomes less wide) without changing the total size (which depends on vehicle weight and tire pressure). Even as the shape of the contact patch changes, traction doesn't alter appreciably (discounting the effect of weight transfer on vehicle weight per corner).

In any case, I'm running 205-50R15 tires (Hankook RS2s), contrary to all kinds of advice to go much wider. While full-throttle in first gear is not advisable, I have pretty good traction in second and beyond. Yes, I know that a wider tire will pay dividends when cornering, but I was first worried about straight-ahead traction with the kind of power I'm running.