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Old 04-13-2013, 01:53 AM   #1
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Default FI options(Cali, now with 33% more fail)

Looking for advice on options-

I run auto-x with occasional track days and I drive this thing a few times a week. Car is a 10AE

Here's what I would like:
200whp/150+trq
CARB approved turbo system for under 5k.

I am willing to entertain non-CARB approved systems, but I'm not down to spend 15 hours R/R every other year, I am too old(read- Lazy).

S/C set-up isn't out of the question. Same situation-CARB approved or easy to R/R.

Looked at the ROTREX system, but I can't seem to drop 4g's on such a nasty torque curve. It may drive differently than it dyno's, but it looks underwhelming.

Enlighten me, wise folk..
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:37 PM   #2
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15 hours every other year? Dude, how slow do you work? Swapping mine back for smog takes 2 hours tops. I run a basic log from ARTech with a chinacharger, catless, no muffler and smellin of that E85.

In California.

As the NWA once said, "**** da police"
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:58 PM   #3
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My big question: how competitive are you with autocross?

FI is going to have you running with the biplane RX7s in SM2 or SSM or whatever they're calling it now.

Most competitive FI Miata I've seen in autocross was my friend Gary's '96 with FM 2 liter stroker and "Ubercharger". SC is possibly better for autox than turbo because of the lag associated with turbos. I don't know how the courses are where you live, especially since you haven't listed your location, but in Marina they were mostly 2nd gear courses with the 510 club, and getting into 3rd with the American muscle guys.

Just so we're clear, MT.net establishment, if it were for street or trackdays (where lag is a non-issue) I'd be recommending turbo hands-down.

Last edited by kotomile; 04-13-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
15 hours every other year? Dude, how slow do you work? Swapping mine back for smog takes 2 hours tops.
Well, they're talking a 10-15 hour install, but that includes mounting,drilling,tapping and those other first time items. I would assume that after that the time would be cut close to in half. It has to come off, then go back on. Is 15 hours unrealistic?

Two hours for a well put together system? I want it done right.

Quote:
My big question: how competitive are you with autocross?
I'm in the top 3 for the day(across all classes) and frequently chasing FTD. I battle with two cars for FTD consistently- A hooked-up E46 M3 and a 550WHP TT 911... then there's my lowly 140hp Miata. Our courses usually run exactly as you said, top of second with the occasional shift to 3rd. I'm leaving so much time on the table due to lack of torque and my nemesis and I are 2-3 tenths apart.

I am no stranger to turbo cars, I prefer them. I'm not willing to dedicate much time in completing a R/R for smog.
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
Well, they're talking a 10-15 hour install, but that includes mounting,drilling,tapping and those other first time items. I would assume that after that the time would be cut close to in half. It has to come off, then go back on. Is 15 hours unrealistic?
Leave your car the way it is until you are willing to learn how to install a F/I setup yourself.
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:01 PM   #6
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I am installing it myself. The manufacturer is telling me it's about a 15 hour install.
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:07 PM   #7
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Nothing from the California guys?
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:21 PM   #8
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I don't care about carb approved. My old setup was on and off in 2 hours, because I designed it that way. My new future setup "may" be able to pass smog, need to figure out the intricacies of this new obd2 test.

Begi turbo kit is carb, but it's not top of the line. You could also look at swapping in a msm setup as the newer engine from same car may be smog okay, and that is close to your goals.
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
I'm in the top 3 for the day(across all classes) and frequently chasing FTD. I battle with two cars for FTD consistently- A hooked-up E46 M3 and a 550WHP TT 911... then there's my lowly 140hp Miata. Our courses usually run exactly as you said, top of second with the occasional shift to 3rd. I'm leaving so much time on the table due to lack of torque and my nemesis and I are 2-3 tenths apart.

I am no stranger to turbo cars, I prefer them. I'm not willing to dedicate much time in completing a R/R for smog.
If you're already in the running for FTD...

Just get a hotside super and some CARB-approved header. R/R should be minimal and you'll have torque enough to leave it in gear on course. And then again, some hotside supers are CARB, right? So there's that.

I'm no s/c expert, but they are typically self-contained WRT lubrication, you aren't replacing any manifolds, etc. so R/R ought to be much easier relative to turbo if you need to take it off for smog at all.

A note - Superchargers aren't typically well-regarded on this site, but most of that I think is down to the typical supercharger owner, who drinks the m.net Kool-Aid, slaps on a hotside and a Powercard (complete with E-Cool!) and proceeds to vent their crankcase and/or not make much power. If you were to go the bigger injector/EMS route you could make good power and would just obviously have to swap out to stock injectors and computer for smog.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
I am installing it myself. The manufacturer is telling me it's about a 15 hour install.
My mistake. It sounded like you were taking it to a shop.

Forget CARB. Do it right the first time or don't do it at all. It's always going to take more time and cost more than you expect. If you aren't willing to sacrifice the time and money, I'd seriously question if you want to start down the rabbit hole.
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Old 04-15-2013, 02:14 PM   #11
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Wait, what part of my post lead you to believe I am not willing to "do it right" or spend what is necessary? I don't believe I've ever so much as implied either of those concepts. My only restriction is that I am not willing to spend 15 hours R/R. I am willing to spend 30 hours installing it the first time.

I can't forget CARB, the vehicle has to pass a visual and sniffer test bi-annually .
I have no desire to piece together a garbage kit, I want it done right. As with most things you will pay now, or you will pay later. I'd rather put the money up front and save myself the frustration of long term nickle/dime cost(s).

That said, I'm not willing to spend 15 hours every other year R/R a system.
If there is no way to accomplish my goal than feel free to say so and I'll consider something like a Rotrex system.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
I am installing it myself. The manufacturer is telling me it's about a 15 hour install.
This is an FM2? It may take 15 hours to put in the first time (appropriately padded so that the shop doesn't wind up losing money when they discover that half the bolts are rusted in place, etc), but it doesn't take 15 hours to swap it back to a smoggable state.

To convert an FM2-equipped car to smoggable state you need to remove:

- Downpipe
- manifold+turbo+outlet casting (one piece)
- ECU connection to Hydra
- Injectors
- Intake plumbing hoses.

You can leave the intercooler in the car, just plug the ports. You can leave the Hydra installed, just unplug the ECU extension harness and plug the main ECU back in. If you have the FM 2.5" exhaust, you can *probably* leave that installed and just hook the stock downpipe up to it. I say probably because the FM cat may or may not pass the smog test. If it doesn't, you'll need to swap the midpipe back for the stock one. The FM 3 inch exhaust won't bolt up to the stock system anywhere, so you'd need to swap the whole thing.

If you're happy with 200hp, you can probably make that on the stock injectors and not have to worry about swapping those.

If you've done it once or twice, know where everything is, have anti-seized all the bolts, done all the ducting trimming, clearanced anything that needs it, etc, then swapping just the turbo bits in/out is an afternoon's work. Assuming you have the 2.5" exhaust and stick with the stock injectors, it's literally only about 30-40 bolts.

--Ian
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Old 04-16-2013, 09:42 AM   #13
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Wait if you're already close to FTD and thats what you're running for. Cut fenders, add flares, purchase 15x10 wheels and 275 hoosiers, put them on at the event. Run 1 event, realize your car is too soft, buy 850/500 spring, realize the ride is too harsh because you have cheap shocks, buy xida/penske, realize you're now consistently beating the other cars for ftd by a second. Lol, hoosiers are instant magic.
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:50 PM   #14
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Codrus,

Thanks for the helpful reply. I am considering building my own kit if it is as quick to R/R as everyone says. I am currently researching what parts I would need.

Leafy,
The M3 is on slicks, the AWD911TT is on 888's and I am running RS-3's. I want to beat them on RS-3's by a full second. :P
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:54 PM   #15
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From what I've heard, auto-xing a boosted miata on street tires doesnt work too well. I dont really ever plan on trying it unless it rains at a race this year since another set of wheels and hoosiers H2Os are not in the budget. And personally, for an a-x car I'll take slicks and lowish power rwd over street tires and ALLOFTHEPOWER every time.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
Wait, what part of my post lead you to believe I am not willing to "do it right" or spend what is necessary? I don't believe I've ever so much as implied either of those concepts. My only restriction is that I am not willing to spend 15 hours R/R. I am willing to spend 30 hours installing it the first time.

I can't forget CARB, the vehicle has to pass a visual and sniffer test bi-annually .
I have no desire to piece together a garbage kit, I want it done right. As with most things you will pay now, or you will pay later. I'd rather put the money up front and save myself the frustration of long term nickle/dime cost(s).

That said, I'm not willing to spend 15 hours every other year R/R a system.
If there is no way to accomplish my goal than feel free to say so and I'll consider something like a Rotrex system.
I think your one restriction is totally unrealistic which makes me question everything you are saying. How are you expecting to keep a tracked F/I car maintained if you are complaining about 15 hours of work every two years?

Leafy has the real solution pegged. You'd be wise to listen.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:20 AM   #17
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Okay, thanks for the reply.
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
From what I've heard, auto-xing a boosted miata on street tires doesnt work too well. I dont really ever plan on trying it unless it rains at a race this year since another set of wheels and hoosiers H2Os are not in the budget. And personally, for an a-x car I'll take slicks and lowish power rwd over street tires and ALLOFTHEPOWER every time.
I have tried boost and all season autox. It does not work. OP either man up about 15 hours every other year or just buy some better tires. A boosted car will require more than 15 hours every 2 years to run on track and autox. Also fyi on my car I can completely remove the supercharger in 15 min and all the signs off boost in an hour.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:04 AM   #19
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Also fyi on my car I can completely remove the supercharger in 15 min and all the signs off boost in an hour.
That's what I thought it might be like with a super.

Hoosiers and super and fight for FTD glory.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Also fyi on my car I can completely remove the supercharger in 15 min and all the signs off boost in an hour.
That's what I'm after. What's the set-up?

No Hoosiers. I'll stick with RS-3's or R1Rs- I like the RS-3's a bit better as far as feedback, it's a great tire.

AS much as I hate the thought of it, that Rotrex is looking more and more appealing. Not only for its R/R simplicity, but it appears to be fairly bomb proof and that slow/progressive torque curve might add just enough to start pulling me out of slow corners a bit faster without creating a deficit elsewhere.

Thoughts?

I need to drive one.
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