Greddy/BEGi-S vs. ITBs
 

Tried searching Miata.net and Yahoo! for How-To's on running ITBs on our 1.6s, came back with nothing.

What are the pro's and con's of the Greddy/BEGi-S kits versus doing ITBs?

Any links to How-To's on ITBs?...because installs for Greddy kits are all over...

I would prefer to stay NA, but if ITBs are a huge (or more than a kit) headache than I'd rather avoid it.

Discuss.

Well...turbo is spending lots of money...and getting something for it...

and ITBs is spending lots of money and getting...well...a cool sound?

If you want an all motor car, get an LS1, or buy a honda...the miata will never make much power even with a fully built high comp. motor...

But I'm not turbo so I wont preach anymore.

A begi S kit would make more power, be more upgradeable, more reliable, cheaper, etc. Most on this forum don't like ITB's, and will tell you to buy a begi S kit. Fuji Racing sells ITB kits, but not sure if they fit 1.6. If your looking for cheap easy hp, turbo is the way.

if when u get it tuned, (which i heard is the biggest challenge of itbs) then u can get decent results...

fuji racing managed 175hp w/ their itbs, cams, MS on a stock block...



they do look better... if i were going to stare at an engine bay, i'd stare at one w/ itbs

N/A? more like N-gAy! hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahah11/€$$€

Turbo.
Turbo sounds better too.
Even staring at an engine bay, I'd rather stare at snails.

No they didn't. Don't bring that bullshit to my forum.

You better do more research buddy. Jimmy was quickly proved wrong on that claim.
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Depends on what you want to do with your car. There's no doubt a built motor + ITB + standalone can be a quick car. It'll also be more "exotic" than a turbo set up, more expensive to build, louder, blingier, and ultimately not as powerful.

Turbo is the best bang for the buck if you want to go fast. Can be done for less $$ to get the same power. Is quiter and stealthier. Will not have the throttle response. Will have more head room to make power.

I'll take you for a ride in my car. You going to be around this weekend?
Pretty sure it will persuade you.

Use my setup for an Example. My complete kit with a new clutch cost me about $1300. Most stuff used obviously. For maybe another $600-$800 for Megasquirt and some injectores im ready for well over 200whp with a proper tune. So for about $2000 give a take a couple hundred you could have a very fast car. The kind of power you would never achieve with ITB's. :bigtu:
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That's not true. An ITB car can make big power, with the supporting mods in place. I drove one once, and it was pretty fast. And noisy, and buzzy, and loud, and didn't idle, but pulled pretty hard up top, as 200 hp should. Problem is, it cost $10k to do it, and wouldn't pass emissions. :doh:

ITBs = I Like To Spend lots of money for minimal gains and throttle responseB.


you're talking spending more on ITBs for 10-15rwhp at most (ITBs + EMS), vs. spending less and getting something like 50rwhp with unlimited upgrade paths.

^^^^ hahaha...so true....and dont foget the crappy idle. ;)

If you like Torque, Gas Mileage, Horsepower, reliability, drivability, go turbo

If you like "wow thats shiny," and dissapointing people when you tell them how much power you make, go ITB's

ITB = In The Butt, because thats what you get after spending a ton of money for minimal gains.

:bowdown:
As this thread continues to degrade, it may be an apporpriate time to know if the OP is male or female....

lol

If you want something drivable outside of a track, you're going to be south of 150whp. The Fuji car didn't make 170whp, and barely runs below 4000rpm. If you search youtube, you can see videos of a turbo miatas shitting on his chest as they shitstomp him all over the track. Do you want to make 140hp, tuned as far as it will go, or run 240whp with a conservative tune, and have more gear to play with, pass inspection, and be able to drive the car on the street?

You are asking that question on a turbo board and I am pretty sure you'll get votes for an itb setup. obviously, i am being facetious.
I've got an itb setup and I do love the throttle response. I tracked the car a weekend or two ago and I was amazed with the throttle response. I was revving the 1.6 all the way to 8000rpm and waiting for it to blowup but it didnt...lol...An itb setup will involve more work and money. I've got my next project going that involves a 99 head mated to an 01 shortblock. I wont be staying with the 1.6 much longer. Money is money and if you have it, youll spend it.
My last band aid to get power is forced induction....i would probably plumb a turbo with my itb setup.

you already get improved throttle response with a turbo, however, not as much as a ITB. You'll receive no benefit from a ITB once a plenum is built and a turbo hooked up. One large TB will suffice.

I remember the older Lotus Esprits that had a turbo pumping air through 2 side draft carbs...exotic..but it worked for them....i wonder why they didnt choose 1 large down draft carb instead.
I'd like to see empirical data on your part to prove your statement that I WON'T receive benefit from it.
Some evidence based statements from posters on this board would certainly be a treat for me.

How about you prove yours first?

Honestly... bothering with ITBs on anything but a fully built motor just is silly. It's one of the, if not the last, steps to finishing off a nice NA motor.

The only reason I can think of is that the concept of "one barrel per pot" was pretty much ubiquitous among the 4 cylinder sports cars of the time. Carrying this philosophy over would mean they could re-use the existing intake manifolds and carburetor inventory. It would also avoid the potential problem of uneven fuel distribution between cylinders.

yes, there are cares that dis it, iirc an old bmw and skyline. but the benefits are very diminishing. the same setup with an ITB and a 70mm TB would see the same exact hp/tq and feel the exact same driving, with the ITB setup losing low-mid toqure and not gaining it back up top.

Okay, this thread has completely pushed me away from getting these. Thanks.

AHAHA

Basically I was just looking for something different (which ITBs are), cheap (which apparently they are not), and can give me reasonable power for the cost (apparently isn't the case either).

BTW IM A SEXY SINGLE MALE WHO LIKES ITALIAN FOOD, HOT BATHS, AND LONG WALKS ON THE BEACH

Attachment 215136

you and hustler are going to get along nicely....:love:

I think you'll notice a drop off in the attention to your threads now that people realize that you are not a girl. Hell, if anyone else started a Begi vs. GReddy Vs. ITBs, they would have been ridiculed off the forum by now...:gay:

Well there's goes me giving you a ride. Now you'll have to post porn with all your threads to get people to look at them. ahahahhaha

If you scroll the page down so that you can only see his legs and lower elbow, he looks like a girl.

Those are some tight pants.

You a sick man, Tim.

Do you have to wear a special brace to take the weight of your enormous brain off your neck?


Definately, as others have said, ITB are another incremental change for NA mods. Thing is, most of the changes on NA are either getting you <10%, and it's certainly a weakest link type model.

Just remember what an engine does: It burns gasoline. You can put in more gas pretty easy, but getting in more air is hard. Most NA mods (and factory tuning, for that matter) center around using resonances to have pressure fronts at the valves when they are open, effectively using sound waves to supercharge the motor 10-20%. In a modern, factory NA motor, you can get 120% the volume of air that the cylender actually holds, the caveat being you do it only at a given RPM window - you play games with cames, intake runners, etc. Like being "on the pipe" in a 2 stroke.

You get all the air you can, then you put in the right amount of fuel and, with any luck, it all burns.

With a turbo/super you get air in by literally forcing it down the engine's throat. NA is like opening a peanut butter jar from the fridge, there's a little sucking as air rushes in from the room. Picture taking that same jar to the gas station, and trying to fill it with the tire-fill line. It'd happen a lot faster, no? With a turbo, you're getting maybe twice as much air in the engine (forgetting for the time being how much more power an engine makes as effeciecies go up with increased effective compression ratio)....

Lastly, think of it like this: NA mods are like running out of breath when jogging a mile, so you take a knife and slit your cheeks open an inch on each side. Sure, it might help, but not enough to justify it.

You gotta buy cams, do porting, etc etc. It's a whole system approach instead of just forcing stuff in. :-)

feel free to debate this on another forum.

sometimes, but it's more of an indication of how pathetically wimpy I am, and not the size of offending appendage...

I may be a dipshit, but I'm not emo.

mainly going to gay route with that one...... :)

you can call me a fag all you want, just don't tell me my jeans are that tight.

FYI, that's not gay, its emo...and someone those people experience coitus first hand.

needs more black bangs over one eye to be emo. I'd go more with scenester if anything :bigtu:

So do you daily a hans device scott?

Back on topic, now that the OP has ruled out ITBs due to cost, I think all the smart people would recommend the BEGi-S. In a nutshell, it's much better engineered and provided a solid upgrade path for more power.

Why's that? goodness, if it turned out I was really missing the boat on this ITB thing, I'd love to know about it.

I think you totally CAN get improvements running them, even with a turbo. Put them into a 5'x5'x5' pressurized box, you WILL see improvements over a regular turbo mani. The idea is to even out the motor, which will only help. You'll get better tip in, too - the dead volume will hurt spool, but throttle response should be good. Really, you want to have a well designed manifold, the stocker isn't too bad, but limits at higher flows.

How's this for an idea: Computer controlled, RPM/flow dependant ITBs? Hell, you could make it actively controlled by putting a flow meter in each intake port. It'd WAY smooth things out, make more power.... And you could fuel appropriately, instead of guessing on gross averages.


"We're not interested in that here" is a pretty weird attitude for someone who wants to learn or go fast to have.

Do they crack much? I haven't seen a LOT of issues with the FM mani (a begi one anyway, really), but I wonder how his stuff is.

Somebody should post a thread about this on CR.net. Same title, same first post, and see what the responses are. :bigtu:

I dont have to prove anything because I did not make a statement. The burden of proof is the responsibility of the one who makes the statement, doesnt it?

please stfu.

do the same with a 70mm TB, replace the TBs with runners....think you'll see any difference? I doubt it.

not the cast iron guys, if they do Corky wants you to send to him, he'll repair them and send them back out. but i don't think he's seen more than one or two of his cracked.

Ironically, that's exactly how my SV650 is set up. There are two throttle plates in each barrel- one mechanically linked to the grip, and a second one controlled by a stepper motor driven by the ECU. The bike obviously doesn't have flowmeters or MAP- just TPS, baro, and temperature. It is an astoundingly smooth and responsive engine. Not nearly as powerful as a GSX of equivalent displacement, but the torque "curve" is damn near a horizontal line from 3,000 to 10,000.

I've also seen a handfull of cracked FM manifolds. I know one turbo track car in particular who's been through a few.

please say that to yourself

If I was building a 1000hp+ turbo road race motor, had an unlimited budget and was restricted to 1.6L I would definately be looking at ITBs. But mainly for off boost throttle response, and becasue with the unlimited budget the entire motor would be blueprinted to completely new specs and need to match the cam and exhaust manifold.

For what they are and what they get the factory manifold has proven to be more than adequate, and capapable of producing more power NA in CSP trim, and at the levels most of us intend to play at.



Asking us to prove you won't recive benefit is like asking us to prove to you there isn't a god. You've got your shit backwards, you can't prove something doesn't exist, you can only prove that it does. Making the burdon of proof fall on your shoulders.

So go ahead and start proving to us that there is actual benefit to ITBs on a turbo miata.

sounds like a well sorted out alpha-n configuration. I read somewhere that one TVR model uses alpha-n for fueling.

Im not after a dyno queen that will crank out x amount horsepower and torque. Im after a well balanced driving car that I can abuse on the track.
I dont mind exotic setups and I dont mind performing experiments to backup claims.

The stated reason Suzy went to those was torque was too instant so they have the computer control the maxium rate of change of the throttle plates. What I don't get is why they don't just let the computer run everything - a real die by wire system

Oh, well, if you're talking noticeable differences, all bets are off. :-P
But there's a lot to be said for intake manifold design. Telling yourself it doesn't matter is giving up a lot. It might not be worth the trouble, but it would buy you something, I'm sure of it. Who here hasn't seen where they'll put a leaner injector in one cylender from the factory because the manifold sucks? Only with modern CAD and/or lots of flowbenching can you get it right. In fact, that's how you make a manifold, you flow bench it with individual flow meters on each port. Then you look at how it changes with RPM (which is tied to the cams and to manifold pressure, humidity, etc) and you choose the best compromise, after deciding if you want a maxium horsepower peak or a flatter torque curve.

Adjusting those factors individually would help. Just run of the mill ITB's would only let you make up for deficiencies in the manifold design. But independently operated ones would completely let you maintain even flow across all cylenders at all times. Like the SV, you could have your total flow throttle in the front, and just a small adjustable restriction on the inlets.


So, someone talk Joe into letting me drive his bike. :-) Maybe I'll let him drive mine but then he'll rave twice as much about how much better the system is.

Hahahahhaahhah

Sorry bros but I'm not what you say.."emo."

My music is on the other side of the spectrum...metal y0! http://www.fmvperformance.com/forum_...ault/irock.gif

we don't need your sausage fest here.

So, why are you here then? :greddy:

They already have that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variabl...ntake_Manifold

Like you said, if the stepper motor decides to crap out while wide open, I can still close the plates that matter. It'd be an interesting experiment though to disconnect the motor and open the secondaries up, then see how it rides. I'm sure the bike would throw a CEL though. (what an odd concept...)

Please, don't tempt me. My upstairs neighbor's son just bought a GSXR750 last month, and then immediately got deployed back to Afghanistan. The bike is parked in the garage next to mine, and the neighbor keeps trying to convince me to ride it to work once or twice a month to keep it limbered up. I've thus far gotten away with the excuse that the color clashes with my helmet, and that the shifter is too small for my big ole' size 14 boots. (I had to modifiy the shifter on my SV to lengthen it so I'd fit)

But it is tempting.

You should ride it. It's not nearly as comfortable as your SV, but so much more powerful. I had a GSXR750 for a while, and while I decided that it wasn't for me, I'm glad that I got the chance to pilot it for a while.

Oh, yeah, except, that's not what I was talking about. It's a step in the right direction, but again, it's all map based. And, I'm not talking about increasing velocity or swirl, I'm talking about balancing between cylinders. Just cause it's a valve in the intake doesn't mean you know what it does. :-) The other issue about Mazda's set up specifically, it only adds a couple (hopefully broad) peaks. Now, a sliding, variable length runner would rock. :-)


Heh, well, I didn't mean the Kawi. I meant this useless toy:

http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/56131637-M.jpg

Anyway, that's down for a carb-change that never happened, but if this miata works out I think I'll microsquirt it. It'd be weird to have boost control on there, but it would be very useful! I always figured the gsx-r750 would be about an ultimate bike. Then again, I've ridden some modern sport-600s and the lack of torque till 50,000 rpm is kinda weird. But it's hard to imagine the 750 isn't at least ok.

Anyway, I'd be really curious to know how it runs that way. Let me know.

I really hope you don't ride that.

Not only do I, I even have a couple ridiculous get-ups I wear. Extra special dork clothes.