Hrmm...Let's discuss Spark Plugs+Gaps+wires? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


General Miata Chat A place to talk about anything Miata

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-22-2008, 07:53 PM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: orlando, FL
Posts: 558
Total Cats: 0
Default Hrmm...Let's discuss Spark Plugs+Gaps+wires?

i did a search with the exact words "spark plug gaps"

and what i've found from searching through random threads is that people say it's good to run .35mm IF your car doesn't backfire....and .28 if it does

any insight on preferences on plugs/wires/gap setups? and it'd be great if someone could provide links as an explanation how plugs work and etc. i'm always willing to learn

(in case SOME of you were wondering.... dude who told me he'd show up kinda flaked on me *sigh* so i guess i'm stuck with the car for a while....the girlfriend is half happy and half dissapointed at hte same time....happy i wont be getting a bike and sad that i'm gonna be driving something that could kill me in the rain hahaha)
XxGoKoUxX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:37 PM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 2,957
Total Cats: 2
Default

Are you turbo'd?

If so:
a smaller gap may be necessary to prevent the spark from blowing out in boost. depending on the strength of your coils you may have to run as small as a .025 gap. I am able to run a .034 gap on my squirted 94 at 12-14 lbs of boost without spark blowout. On my other squirted 94 with coil-on-plugs I am able to run a .040 gap at 14psi. See link in sig for COP how-to.

As far as spark plug wires. You really can't beat the factory NGK Blues. Depending on where you buy they are $35-50 and are great.

Factory gap is .040-.043.
paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 09:41 PM   #3
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

The .35mm you speak of is more likely .035", first of all.

Basically, increasing the gap improves driveability (sp?) and idle smoothness a negligible amount, but will probably "blow out" in boost. Narrow the gap until you stop getting blowout under your max boost. I ran .025" with the factory ignition at 14 psi, and run .040" with COPs.

edit: paul beat me!
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 10:41 PM   #4
Elite Member
iTrader: (21)
 
paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Point Pleasant, NJ
Posts: 2,957
Total Cats: 2
Default

COPs FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2008, 11:56 PM   #5
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

I ran the stock ignition on my 99 with the 100 shot nitrous. I had spark blowout like crazy above 5500. It was like hitting a wall. Power would rise to about 5500 and then fall like crazy. By 6000 it had lost like 100 HP. New wires and plugs didn't fix it. 2 step colder plugs didn't fix it. Hmm, new coil, wires, plugs, and it runs fine without nitrous. Pulls to 7800 (I increased the factory rev limit a bit) but hit a wall on the nitrous. So I dropped the gap from .040 to .030. Helped a lot, but was still not right above 7K. Nitrous motors don't loose top end like that. So I dropped gap to .020. Then it pulled like crazy to 7500 and never skipped a beat. Forever I ran .020 with NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE in idle quality, driveablility, power, etc when not spraying. Seriously. Motor ran fine on .020 gap, plugs stayed clean, motor was as stong and smooth as it was on .040 but on spray the spark was no longer "blown out" as is said.

So after putting 30K on this nitrous motor my experience says plug gap doesn't make a god damn difference. I'd love to see some proof as to why one needs more gap. I mean, it sparks, a flame front propagates, combustion begins, and gases expand and push the pistons. So why does it matter if we use a .020 or .040 spark? I mean has ANYONE ever dyno'd a car at .020 and then some other gap greater than that and concluded more gap=more hp? If there are supposedly "gains", are these gains great enough to clearly show up on a dyno? I've never seen them. Has anyone?

Besides, if you have badass coils and run high gap but have ANY UNDETECTABLE MISS-FIRE in the upper RPMs it will quickly wipe out any gains you 'may' see running more gap. I mean seriously, is it worth it? Risk a lot of power to gain a fraction of a HP maybe?

Also, if you do have a slight undetectable miss-fire with your high gap at say 6800 and up, every miss dumps a cylinder full of oxygen into your exhaust system and your wide band picks that up. It thinks the motor's running lean from the miss. This makes tuning very difficult obviously.

As we all know, the power it takes to make a spark increases by the square of the distance. So when you guys run .040 vs. .020 your asking 4 times as much out of your coils. More heat and energy. And to think people burn up igniters....

That said I'm running EDIS4 now with .020 gap on stock NGK plugs and custom MSD wires. Made a pull today in second gear to 7500 today and it's strong as ever.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:00 AM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

Don't get so wound up man, I said "negligible". Being the grammar ****, you understand that negligible means not discernible.
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:03 AM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Furthermore, if anyone running COPs wants to do themselves a HUGE favor, they need to ditch the wasted spark setup for sequential ignition. This would help a ton in comparison to running more gap. Cut the number of sparks in half, you eliminate about half the heat induced into the coils. That's worth doing IMO. Doubles plug life too, though that's not as important to most performance enthusiast.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:10 AM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
Don't get so wound up man, I said "negligible". Being the grammar ****, you understand that negligible means not discernible.
I hear you. I wasn't really directing that at you. I just don't understand why everyone thinks they need COPs. Kinda like the dual feed fuel rail thing. Everyone speculates, but nobody has real proof that it's better, or for that matter, that there's a problem in the first place. Hell, dual feed could be worse! Who knows?! No real conclusive data to say either way. Yet people stand in line to "upgrade" to dual feed. Monkey see, monkey do. (I know there's a term for this. I learned it in Speech but can't remember it)

I've seen Abe's thread so don't link me
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:18 AM   #9
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

Dual feed is another thread, but I do know I couldn't boost past 14 psi at a .025" gap without blowing out the spark. Now I can boost 14 psi with a .040" gap, if I want to turn the boost up, I can, and if I get blowout I can still close the gap. I did notice a little better throttle response after going to COPs, whether that's due to the gap or the hotter spark is probably debatable.
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 03:47 AM   #10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: orlando, FL
Posts: 558
Total Cats: 0
Default

why go colder plugs? whats the effects of hotter plugs?
XxGoKoUxX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 03:52 AM   #11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: orlando, FL
Posts: 558
Total Cats: 0
Default

reason why i brought up this thread is because i'm baffled at what happened to me last week.... it's a symptom i'm not able to fix for some reason....before i've been able to run 20lbs no problem....then my friend touched the car(didn't do anything involving...but he checked my plugs to make sure i didn't detonate on load) he put the plugs+wires back in... i lost boost, the car would bounce and hesitate at aorund 12-14lbs of boost.... i've always kept a .028 gap on my plugs and he didn't mess with the gap at all.... only thing i could recall is that i tried pouring methanol to clean up one of the plugs.... i was told that my wires were probably going bad and i should replace'em... so i went out to discount auto and bought plugs from there...some cheap lifetime warranty plugs(which i will be returning soon since it's not the culprit at all) and i bought some regular NGK BKR6E i believe?... only difference between this setup and the old one i had was the old one was NGK wires...this one is some off brand from discount auto...like $26, and the plugs this time was the v-power NGK BKR6E-11 vs the old i believe iridium-IX'ed BKR6E's
XxGoKoUxX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 12:11 PM   #12
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,326
Total Cats: 1,925
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxGoKoUxX View Post
why go colder plugs? whats the effects of hotter plugs?
All else being equal, a "colder" plug will be more prone to fouling, however a "hotter" plug will be more prone to causing autoignition during the compression cycle.

The recommended plug temperature varied over the years. The early cars ('90-'93) were spec'd for a 6-series NGK, whereas the later years were spec'd to run a 5-series, which is one step hotter.

There are three common schools of thought as to what heat range a turbo'd Miata should run. The first is to simply go one step colder than stock, which for a 1.6 would be a 7, and for a 1.8 would be a 6.

The second thought is to just run a 7 series regardless of year (speficially a BKR7E) and be done with it.

The third is that for optimal longevity, you should run the hottest plug you can which does not cause autoignition.

Personally, I decided to do an experiment a while back. I took out my 7 series plugs and installed a set of 8 series irridiums. I've been checking them periodically, and have not observed any problems with them. Being something of a paranoid individual, I decided the extra margin of safety was worth it.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 03:24 PM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

Those discount auto wires are absolute garbage Goku, I'd get rid of those ASAP.
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2008, 03:34 PM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,797
Total Cats: 248
Default

Advance sells Bosch Professional Series spark plug wires. When I bought my 99' it had the ORIGINAL spark plug wires on it. I quickly swapped them out for the Bosch wires. They're high quality and were like 40 bucks at Advance and they had em' in stock.

Funny story: Friend had a Jaguar XJS V12. Well it had a gas leak and the top of the motor caught fire one day. Well the fire damaged the old wires so they replaced them with "Omni Spark" brand wires. They were so cheap, I think they were Imported TO China. Anyways car ran like ****. We waited till dark, popped the hood, fired it up, and behold... They don't call em' Omni spark for nothing. The wires were sparking to ground everywhere.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2008, 01:41 AM   #15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: orlando, FL
Posts: 558
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
Those discount auto wires are absolute garbage Goku, I'd get rid of those ASAP.
thanks for the up koto....returning them first thing monday/tuesday hahahaha i think i'll wait for my NGK blue wires then
XxGoKoUxX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2008, 11:28 PM   #16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: orlando, FL
Posts: 558
Total Cats: 0
Default

quick question for future reference..... how can you tell your car is getting spark blow out? i'm not getting a backfire at all
XxGoKoUxX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2008, 11:55 PM   #17
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

it feels like the power cuts out under boost.
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 01:07 AM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Missfires coupled with a loss of power.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 09:03 AM   #19
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
m2cupcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 7,244
Total Cats: 291
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
...I took out my 7 series plugs and installed a set of 8 series irridiums. I've been checking them periodically, and have not observed any problems with them.
Were the 7s standard copper? Wondering if the iridium is the difference...
m2cupcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2008, 09:54 AM   #20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: orlando, FL
Posts: 558
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
it feels like the power cuts out under boost.
under boost load u mean? because the car gets up to 10-12lbs and then i feel power cuts out really badly..... but no physically heard noises..... the rpm just bounces and when i let off the throttle and the boost gets down to 8-10lbs it runs fine it's getting irritating because i swapped wires from discount auto(even though i know they're crap...already returned, a waste of 25$ hahaha) and same symptoms, swapped in my NGK blue's back...same symptoms.... i'm gonna order new NGK blue's but i'm unsure if this will help or not...dont want to buy plug wires for no reason

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce View Post
Missfires coupled with a loss of power.
misfire? or backfire? can you elaborate on the events that happen? because mine's silent....no popping noise or anything but i lose power
XxGoKoUxX is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS/FT: 03.5 Mazdaspeed Protege leatherface24 Cars for sale/trade 15 10-16-2015 12:35 PM
Time to start learning and play with tuning The Gleas MEGAsquirt 3 10-01-2015 10:30 AM
01-05 Fab9 PNP COPs (used) FrankB Miata parts for sale/trade 6 09-30-2015 12:48 PM
In need of AEM guidance W/pics E=MC^2 AEM 1 09-17-2015 01:34 PM
Obligatory "N00B" post! D_Breezy Meet and Greet 5 09-08-2015 06:37 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:36 PM.