Mazdaspeed Miata or Aftermarket Turbo Miata?
 

I've been wanting another miata for a while and this time I'd like a turbo miata
I like the mazdaspeed miata a lot.. and I'm thinking it should be more reliable and less trouble than a regular miata with an aftermarket turbo kit

Obviously there is the price difference also..

what would you guys recommend?

It depends.

If you want a little more power than stock, without having to do any work, and with the option for bolt-on expansion, than the MSM is a good choice. It also gives you a head-start on other upgrades such as suspension, chassis bracing, clutch, etc., plus the MSM special bodywork.

If you want a GOOD turbo setup, you like to DIY, and/or you prefer the NA body style, then it's better to buy a regular Miata and turbo it.

We have a biased opinion. I'm not sure there are ANY msm owners here.

True!

You mean I don't exist? Damn it .... gotta visit the local exorcist again.

Seriously, there ARE some msm owners here, such as me :) but we've learned to blend in!!

Hmm lets see:
mazdaspeed: basically same motor, tiny ass turbo, joke of an intercooler, piece of crap stock ecu, only cool stuff is the transmission/diff and the bilsteins. Lost of misc shit different but no one really cares about it. MUCH bigger price tag.

aftermarket: bigger turbo, good sized fmic, most running a good engine management, and many well sorted. smaller price tag.

There are exceptions to this but thats it for the most part.

I love my msm. especially after installing the meth injection and running 15 psi safely. I dont feel the power tappering off at all either

Haha, i retract my previous statement. There are very few MSM owners here.

post this thread on this site also: Welcome to Mazda-speed

Heh .... the response will be similar facts but a very different slant!

Totally different directions.

We're comparing apples and oranges here.

One is vastly more expensive (stock for stock) than the other.

Base MSM was only $500 more than a loaded NB.

What are your HP/handling goals?

If you are just going to replace half the turbo parts and suspension in a MSM anyway, don't bother. If you are happy with one as is, and will remain happy, then it could be a good deal (although a used NB with an FM2 or similar is probably still a better idea).

Mazdaspeed owners, eh?

If you are lazy and have money, get the Mazdaspeed. But if you are a broke ass college student/aspiring ricer/etc definitely get the NA miata and turbo it the right way.

The stock MSM turbo, ecu, and intercooler are all pretty shit in the grand scheme of things. But as mentioned, our bilstein dampers, bosch limited slip diff, and 6 speed transmission are worth having the cute wittle turbo and intercooler combo.

I have a Mazdaspeed Turbo System installed on my 1999 10th Anniversary with Voodoo Card engine management and timing set at 6BTDC.

Truth is, the Mazdaspeed Miata's have gone down on price pretty much. You can get a Velocity Red 2004 with 30-50,000 miles for practically 13,000-14,000. I'm finding that, the more I look into the Mazdaspeed Miata, the more little features it has that 01-05 Miatas' didn't have.

Lets start with the good stuff, we all know it has a nice set of 17x6 Racing Hart wheels, a supposedly stronger transmission, a bosch limited slip differential in a 4:30 final drive. (I would prefer a 3:90 myself) And the bilstein monotube shocks. Then there are other things...

Mazdaspeed swaybars.
Mazdaspeed springs.
Powdercoated brake calipers F+R and I betcha better pads too.
Turbo intake and exhaust cams.
Exedy Organic Clutch that is good for 288 ft-lbs of torque.
Kick ass powdercoated valve cover.
Direct Coil Ignition on a BPW4 motor.
And the engine internals are slightly stronger. Tom Neel of Parts Groups knows all about the little difference.
Thicker half shafts and stronger CV joints.
Great set of pedals, easier to heel toe.
Integrated Oil Catch can system with the strut tower brace.
Stainless steel turbo oil feed line, oil drain line, and water lines too :)
No VVT :)
Larger radiator, better radiator fans.
MSM exclusive chassis braces and butterfly brace.
I think even the bushings are made for more dimensional stability; they last longer...
An expensive as shit front lip spoiler that can be sold for 200-400 dollars if the market is good. As well as the rear lip spoiler and rear lip too :)
Expensive as shit headlights too :)

So there is a short little list...

Consider this, you buy a Velocity Red MSM with 60,000 miles for like 12,500 and recuperate some of your expense by selling the hot ass headlights, and ground effects, that is if you don't care for them. That's prolly around 1,500 dollars to boot right there once you sold all that. Use that 1,500 to transform the MSM from a 150 rear wheel horsepower car to one with about 200 rear wheel horsepower...All with affordable bolt-ons! Add an adaptronics ecu for another grand and you got a reliable 230 rear wheel horsepower, without even having to replace the clutch :)

Heck it can cost alot of money to start with say a stock 99' Miata. And if you don't have the facilities to work with, then you have to pay to use a shop. An ACT HD street clutch and labor to have a new clutch installed could run you around 500-600 dollars...

I've driven the 04-05 Mazdaspeed Miatas' and the biggest complaint I have with it was the 6500 rpm rev limiter, the boost that comes in too late, and the shitty ecu... True I can't think of a way to up the rev limiter (crystal mod maybe) but an 02 signal modifier for 60 dollars transforms the MSM's ECU and drivability. (I can testify to that)

The MSM's intake and exhaust is very restrictive from the factory, so be ready to work on that immediately. Purchase an affordable cold air intake such as the AEM intake. (248 dollars shipped and your choice of polished aluminum, or powdercoated red or blue) Purchase a manual boost controller like the one from flyin Miata (40 dollars); it is much better than the ecu controlled solenoid valve. Install a T-Bolt clamp on the throttle body intake hose to eliminate the problem of it blowing off. (5 dollars) Bell Engineering sales a kick ass recirculating bypass valve that doesn't leak, do that. Buy a 28x7.5x2.5 ebay intercooler (around 50 dollars) Then replace the downpipe, midpipe, and exhaust. (900 dollars should do) Just make sure it has a catalytic converter and a good resonator. Once you do all that, you'll be at 200 rear wheel horsepower running around 12:1 air/fuel ratios at 8.5 psi, and in six gear, you should hit full boost right around 2900 rpms. (instead of 4,000 LOL) So you got good reliable power for less than 1,300... :)

All this talk makes me wish I could trade my 10AE for an MSM.

The stock Mazdaspeed IHI RBF-5 turbocharger, from what most people tell me, is very comparable in terms of power potential to the GT2554R. So 230 rear wheel horsepower is about as much as you want to push out of the IHI. I've supercharged three miatas and turboed two. My fastest Miata was my 97' with the MSPNP, 460cc injectors, and Bell engineering's Series 3 system with a GT2860RS. It made around 260 rear wheel horsepower and was pretty damn fast. But in my honest opinion, 200 rear wheel horsepower is just perfect for a Miata. And it is pretty fucking fast too, you'll have no prob hitting 140 mph...

I love my Mazdaspeed turbo system on my 1999 10th AE. I haven't replace the intake yet, but I am using a 2.5 inch enthuza dual exhaust with the 2.5 inch flyin miata midpipe and the stock 99-2000 naturally aspirated downpipe. My spool up is so fast!

To echo Cody a bit here:

"Integrated Oil Catch can system with the strut tower brace.
Stainless steel turbo oil feed line, oil drain line, and water lines too
"
are the 2 primary reasons I still have my stock turbo, even though its a pretty shit unit for output, it has the potential for quick spool, and the lines are very nice.

However, I change my answer, if you have money and are lazy, buy this car: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t37729/

Former MSMfag checking in.

I miss the car. Picked it up for 14k in 2006 with 15,000 miles. Sold it for 18k in 2007 with 34,000 miles. Changed the oil every ~4000 miles with synthetic, blew through a few sets of tires, never really abused it. Never even cut one donut in it, but many many many powerslides around corners.. Surprised the fuck out of 350z/G35, Mustang, and Camaro owners alike.

They had their downfalls, True. It'd be a great platform to start on IMHO. If you weren't ever interested in reselling it, find a good deal on a mid mileage MSM, pull the engine and sell it on ebay for 8000$ like every scrap yard tries, and build a forged motor with big BEGI or FM turbo setup. Or, DIY It.

That right there, is one of the reasons I'd get a custom turbo'd nb. Exactly everything you'll need (in a street car) with a 10k price tag:)

I agree. 2554 is said to be slightly smaller but it's ball-bearing; ours isn't.

There will be a very interesting comparison when I dyno this fall - my car vs. Paul's old daily and/or his gf's current daily. Both are 2554, MS, 14-15 psi, Absurdflow, big IC, big injectors, COPS, etc. ...... essentially the same as my MSM will be at that time except for the turbo (ported MSM-IHI here.)

I'm surprised nobody has told this noob to search.

Search, noob. Its been discussed several times.

If you want a car you will never have to wrench on, buy an MSM. If you want a fast Miata and you don't want to wrench on it, find a GOOD shop and be prepared to pay them well.

You know its funny how you can try to start cheap and end up spending a whole lot of money. Okay that is kewl... so check this out, say I bought a 2001 classic red base model with the typical shit, power windows, open diff with 50,000, but it was in superb mechanical condition and the paint was like knew. I paid market retail price of around 8,000 dollars.

Okay i'll show you how easy it is to spend more money when you could just have the best of the best, the Mazdaspeed Miata....lets get to modding...

In this example, we'll say the owner is me. I am mechanically inclined and have everything except the help and equipment that is definitely needed to pull the motor or drop the tranny. (But I have dropped and replaced about 6 rear ends, those are a little tricky, but very manageable with one guy)

Factory suspension, that is shit... I'm tossing that out and getting some real suspension from my guys at Flyin Miata. Shipping included in estimates.

FM Stage 2 suspension with Tokico shocks, springs, and sway bars. 850 dollars shipped.
Fat Cat Motorsports MCU 46mm/36mm bumpstops and boots, 69 dollars.
FM Level 1 clutch, 375 dollars shipped, 200 dollars labor. 575 dollars installed and ready.
FM 2.5 inch midpipe and single exhaust, 725 dollars shipped.

Now I gotta put good sound system in :)

Clearwater audio 8 inch system, 200 dollars.
Pioneer 300 watt amp. 100 dollars.
Panasonic Ipod receiver, 175 dollars.

Things are adding up. Now I gotta get a roll bar...

Harddog Sport M2 roll bar with double diagonals, 425 dollars shipped.

We will stratch the tires... since that is more or less too many variables to consider...

Now for the turbo kit. Flyin Miata Voodoo II turbo system with GT2560. 3450 dollars!

With all that power, you finally need a torsen. So shell out 800 dollars for a 3:90 torsen in the carrier and speedo gear.

Lets add this shit up... We gotta a 200 rear wheel horsepower car with the works... :) 15,369 dollars and a whole lot sweat involved... 13000 dollars if you considered you bought every little aftermarket piece used including the turbo kit. (That is considering the typical slightly used resale value of most FM parts. 80 percent resale value)

Okay kewl. I got my 2001 with 50,000 miles all hot-rodded and that good shit everything but the good weed and 'dat purple drank :)

Now here is what I could have had if I went with the MSM Miata. A velocity red with 50,000 miles for 13,000. and the bosch already included, the bigger cv joints and shafts, that's included, the turbo intake and exhaust cam, the fancy ass interior, the bose audio system. the decent turbo system, the bilstein shocks with mazdaspeed springs and sways, the racing hart wheels, the powder coated big sport brakes, the 6 speed transmission and the list goes on and on. And if you don't like the factory suspension, sell it for around 500-600 dollars. Don't like the factory bose, sell that shit for..yeah 200 dollars for the headunit, amp, speakers. Don't like the front lip, sell it...for 300 dollars.

So i'll stop there but you quickly get the drift that for the same 13,000 I spent on the 01, I could have a damn good car that is equally as fast. With alot less hassle and oh yeah...I don't even have to mess with the clutch :)

With that, I am going to take a good long shit :)

he's got a point

If I had a choice I would have gone with the MSM. That "little things" list is actually pretty desirable to me since the whole car is better prepped for making power. I'm actually looking for some MSM parts - transmission, axels etc for that reason.

Shoot yeah man me too, if you keep a watchful eye there is always somebody selling a low mileage unit in the range of 13,000 dollars. Truth is, you don't have to go all crazy with the MSM. You can have a nice 160 rear wheel horsepower MSM with perfect drivability by simply replacing the stock intercooler with a 60 dollar 28x7.5x2.5 bar and plate ebay intercooler. (Just make your own aluminum bracketry and cute about 4 inches of the left and right charge pipes and bolt it right in) and then add an 02 signal modifier. This practically eliminates the fuss caused by the ecu going in and out of open-loop and makes for a much smoother drive. (don't believe me, drive a Jackson Racing Miata with the old powercard...IT SUCKS) And lastly on that number, if your stock recirculating bypass valve isn't leaking more than a .5 psi... I wouldn't even worry about it...

With just 120 dollars worth of upgrades, you've already attained the typical performance that is featured in a Begi S Series or Voodoo 1 kit. (Both outstanding kits I must say) Want more power, start with a very affordable AEM intake and manual boost controller. That opens 15-20 horses right there! Whoa! Want a good recirculating valve, forge motorsports has the answer. People fuss about the factory exhaust but lets be honest, how many people here on the forums is going to keep a factory exhaust anyway... I sure as hell am not going to run a 1 7/8 NB exhaust on my turbo car. Do all that, replace the exhaust and say hello to a reliable 200 rear wheel horsepower. Incredible for simple bolt ons.

Want more power, heck sell the stock turbo assembly, everything and purchase a BEGI MSM Series Turbo system with the GT2860RS. Your factory turbo equipment can bring anywhere from 500 dollars to 900 dollars. The whole kit that is, or part it out... :) That will help you recuperate some of your expense.

Go with an aftermarket turbo setup on a regular Miata, MSMs are slow.

Oh yeah, check out that sweet ass fuel curve! P-P-P-Powercard!! FTL:

http://jugrnot.com/dyno.jpg

What a fantastic argument! You've got me sold right there!! :jerkit: If a low 14 second car bone stock is slow, sure. They're quicker than any bone stock GT mustang I ever ran across, along with 3/4 of the cars on the road... Including the illustrious race car known as the "Type-R" :jerkit:

What he said.....

I would own a MSM ONLY if you ripped out the turbo kit and replaced it. And added an Xede (or alternate Engine Management). That is totally necessary to fix the MSM Bog/TPS problem that the stock ECU has.

The stock turbo on the MSM is a total and complete piece of crap. I have seen a turbo (with 20K miles on it) that had a crack in the turbine housing. A turbo with 30K miles that had shaft play. A turbo at 40K miles that seized. So yeah, in my opinion, it has to go.
Stephanie

weak i didn't receive any email notifications from this thread..
ok so after reading page 1 I was leaning towards buying an N/A miata and adding turbo etc..
after page 2 I think I'll look for the MSM and upgrade turbo/fuel/etc later on

I usually get crazy with all the little thing mods myself and like the fact that it came from the factory that way

Thanks guys

Why in the world wouldn't they have a sticky at Mazdaspeed for a power upgrade path. Intercooler, exhaust, intake, downpipe, turbo, ecu, etc. Here's what gets you 200hp safely, here's 250. It has to be beaten to death there with clear and obvious paths to do it. They must love answering the same questions constantly like members here do!

Woops uh I didn't notice the comparison to an aftermarket turbo miata.

I would look for a aftermarket turbo miata. Definetly. But one with the following only--

1) a real ECU e.g., Hydra or MS.
2) Decently installed BEGI or FM turbo kit. Not a hacked together greddy.
3) upgraded suspension
4) roll bar
5) wheelz and rimz
6) upgraded clutch
7) 99+ because the old body style is lame.
8) decent paint and body

This sounds like a pretty specific and demanding list but it's actually very common to see cars with the above mod list going for under 10K. If you wait long enough, you can find one with an engine that's already been built. I bought my car for 16K with 15K miles when it was 2 years old. For that much I could have bought a well sorted aftermarket turbo car with the above list in perfect condition that would piss all over a mazdaspeed.

For 1500-2000 (maybe less) I think you could get the mazdaspeed tranny, axles, maybe even cams.

If you must, just buy an MSM and replace the turbo assembly with a Begi or FM MSM Kit. I've heard a few examples of bad turbos on the MSM, but plenty of examples with 60,000 miles or over. I bought me a brand new IHI turbo. It was 269 dollars and included oil lines, oil drain, t-fitting for us guys who get our oil from the oil pressure sender (that is a tough part to find) and other stuff... No prob with it so far.

My guess is that you shouldn't have a problem selling the stock turbo assembly for 600 dollars...

Ahh, I'd say go after a 2002 SE since you get the cool headlight / tail light covers, stainless door scuff plates, aluminum pedals, 6-speed, 3:90 rear with LSD, killer chassis stiffening, great seats, and a whole bunch of the things you would have seen on the MSM for less money... then add the BEGi turbo kit, adaptronic, and oh wait.... that's my car!

Seriously, you will likely change the shocks and springs after the car has 50k miles on it... you'll want more boost than the stock MSM has... and you'll eat a cluch and have to replace it... So if you want the body upgrades, roll MSM. Other than that go aftermarket on an NB non MSM and have more fun.

My 99 automatic destroyed a local MSM on a 1 mile trip. Back then I only had the more or less BEGi S1 and ran e85... in an auto. So bang for buck, MSM is not it if you can turn wrenches. but they look sexxxxxyyyy

There is absolutely no way you would get $600 for a used MSM system. I could sell it for more than $300 for the turbo, manifold, and downpipe. They truly are not worth much.

Plenty of people may still be doing 60K miles on their stock turbo, but they have yet to remove it, and they won't be for much longer. 10:1 when they take it off, there is problems. The stock turbo is truly a piece of crap. Not worth $5 as a paper weight. There are people driving MSMs that have had bad turbos, straight from the dealership. I'd put a cheap Chinese turbo on my car before I'd use an MSM turbo. (Even though the IHI turbo is a Japanese turbo.)
Stephanie

Seriously Cody, I think you are just a bit too carried away with MSM's. Nothing wrong with that, but you just refuse to see the many down sides to them. Great cars, but better can be had for cheaper.

Its cute how many of you actually secretly like the MSM as a normal, factory-turbo car :3 it ain't so bad after all, eh?
Sure its no STI/Evolution/Corvette/etcetc but its relatively inexpensive for the goodies you get.

However, I still stick with the assertion that SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING can build a better turbo miata than the MSM, given the proper funding (you guys know who you are).

Also: I lol`d at stephanie

My car, as of this morning, has 99,200 miles. I don't recall the mileage when I took out the stock turbo and installed BEGI's ported stocker last year ..... Stephanie do you have any memory of that? LOL, nor did you ever tell me the mileage of the one I bought from you, but it was in better shape than the stocker I removed.

EXCELLENT IDEA!

I forgot all about the 02 special editions. They too make a great platform to boost. Nice strong aisin 6-speed manual. Sport suspension, big brakes, and that much nicer geared 3:90 Torsen. Plus its got lots of good gatchets and upgrades. And bilsteins.

Actually any of the special editions make good platforms. The 99 10th Anniversary is great, the 2000 special edition is equally good, the 01 Se, 02 Special Edition's. After that, they discontinued the 3:90 rear end in the 6-speeds. In fact, if you go asking for the 3:90 ring and pinion, you're shit out of luck...

Yeah you could get 500-600 dollars that includes absolutely everything, chargepipes and 28x7.5x2.5 intercooler. But 300 is realistic for the manifold, turbo, and outlet...

People can call the factory turbo shit all day, but they don't know nothing until they experience the true shittiness of the Jackson Racing M45 with moss motors (get ready ooooo!!!) revolutionary pah-pah-pah POWERCARD! Engine Choke Card with awesome 9:1 air-fuel ratio.

that damn Jackson Racing is a paperweight if there ever was one... :) I can't say much, I hope my little IHI holds up for a good 60,000 miles. As it is right now, its a great little turbo for us pleased with 170 RWHP. If you're abitious on the power, then definitely invest in a nice Garrett T2560 or T2860RS (Disco Potatoe) I won't lie, I have owned a 260 rear wheel horsepower Miata and they are a blast, but having 170-200 rear wheel horsepower is great to, plus you have piece of mind of knowing that, at 8.5 psi and good maintanence, that engine will go own for at least 175,000 miles of use... Not saying your engine is going to tear up by running 12 psi, a good tune makes all the difference in the world :)

Maybe because they haven't driven any other turbo miata. I won't lie, Flyin' Miata and Begi got the factory stuff beat in quality all they stuff...

If you look at the factory MSM turbo manifold, the casting is sorta shitty...

I'd have a lot more fun gutting and modding a pre 94' NA.

Dude, think about it. There is about 5248 Mazda-speeds in the USA, minus the probably 100 or more TI's who've been hit by the curse. Now, without potential buyers and noobs asking the same old questions over and over, at what point do we no longer have a forum :-/

No biggie though, just like you guys say here, all they gotta do is use the search function, and its there. Flyin miata also has a list on their site for MSM parts and suggested upgrade lineage, and even some dyno stuff. Unlike here, the MSM forum is heavily biased towards FM vs others, just because of the way everything seems to fit together so nicely.

Anyway, all not to mention, for about $1200 I'm on an FM full intake, Downpipe, Blousch turbo, SpeedHut digital boost gauge, Fm frame rails, and a few other bits... Putting me over 200whp, its a nice package. Used parts, obviously. Don't care. Still makes power.

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate.... Hate. The 6-speed, shot-peen-in-my-ass transmission, though. I'd ditch it for the 5. (any takers on a trade :-))


Oh, just wanted to mention that we have a 4.10 rear end, quickly, and I assume a shot-peened gearset is stronger, but who cares when it sucks.

As well, aside from the Xede, Hydra, or a custom MS, not seen success with other ecu options as far as watching others.

I'll put my vote in for a 99' SE or 02' SE over the MSM most any day, and turbo it. Don't forget Absurdlow's stuff, which is very nice as well
But, yea, most of us ditch the stock suspension, ditch the 17.4lbs (or 18.2 on 05') boat anchor wheels, Some love the Bose (not bosch???) system, most don't, and some ditch that, many ditch parts if not the whole turbo system, a few people do not like the 6-speed for inconsistencies as well (including FM).

Anyway, I still enjoy my car. It also works. Every day. Even in the winter. Go figure.

Get 3.63 gears. You will fall in love again.
Stephanie

If 3.63 gears would make it stop sucking ass at shifting, I would Stephanie, but I have one of the worst 6's I've ever felt. I'm guessing its just tolerances in the box are out of whack, but I'm much too strapped for time to take the bloody bugger apart and spec everything out.

I've been in about 4-5 other MSM/SE 6 gang cars, and mine has some of the worst notchiness I've felt. I can get to the gear I want no problem, but it doesn't give you that nice warm fuzzy feeling.

Oh, 'band-aids' for the trans include oil changes (royal purple, redline, now Ford Ful synth.) bushing changes, new boots, etc...

mazdacomp sucks:
The ring and pinion gear mesh is all wrong as it sits in my shop. No spacers or shims were included with the gears to make sure the alignment was right, so I had to assume the set was meant to be built without shims (this is not abnormal). When I assembled the differential, there were issues with the clearances associated with pinion shaft length, which was solved using an additional spacer (that does not affect gear mesh). The Pinion was too long to obtain proper bearing preload when built as is was before disassembly (read: slack and play in the pinion bearings). Once re-assembled with the new spacer, the gear mesh was all wrong. Proper gear backlash is not attainable while retaining a smooth-spinning gear mesh. Once the gear teeth are brought close to (but still outside of) tolerance, the gears begin to grind. The corners of the pinion teeth are drgging along the faces of the ring teeth. As each gear tooth engages/disengages, there is a notchy/grinding sensation felt and heard (hand-spinning). Surface texture of both gears appears to be fine. There is no pitting or gouging, nor are the edges of the gear teeth worn or rounded. The gear set arrived with sizing compound (for aligning gear teeth) on both gears.

Once you start to modify the MSM the only reason for owning it goes right out the window. Reliability of a stock car and not having to fuck with it.

The 3:90 is what you need. Such a great rear end :)

LOL I can vouch for that.

Not true, most of the bolt ons are relatively easy to install and there are no reliability issue with the basic mods.

Also, on my MSM, I put down 184rwhp with nothing but a cheap $189 AEM intake and a MBC I had sitting on the shelf already. With my current setup, all mods I got cheap, mostly used, I'm at 210RWHP. I have 46K on my odo and my turbo hasn't craped out or shown any signs of failing.

IMO, if you want a NB miata, in the end, either way you go you will have about the same money invested. I've modded a lot of cars, and never has my guesstimated budget come out like I expected. you almost always end up spending more than you planned. I think the main difference:

If you like to tinker vs get down and dirty with some serious wrenching, get a MSM, if you like to get down and dirty, go with the NB and build your own turbo.

Shoot your at 210 horsepower. I say if that shit never craps out be happy and know you didn't spend 3,000 dollars replacing the entire turbo system because 99% of all MSM turbo prematurely fail ;)

I like whoever it was who said 100 out of like 6000 MSM have bad turbos, cause that's probably the truth. I know a man in florence that has a silver one 89,000 miles, oil changed every 3,000 miles, no prob at all... Hell how many fucking 90-91's had short nose cranks (Not really an issue as long as proper installation of the woodruff key and sufficient torque and threadlocker is applied to the crankshaft nut) and how many 99's had the shit no.4 thrust bearing issue?

If the turbo was that popular and prone to failure, I would think C&D, Motortrend, some automotive magazine producer would have caught on to it and made mention of it for real... Yet the only people I find that really talk it down are business that offer alternative setups, good well engineered setups don't get me wrong on that, but quiet expensive...

You know if I were to change the turbo, I wonder how hard it would be just to sale my MSM manifold, turbo, and outlet and go with a BEGI Manifold, GT2560, Seperated Gases Stainless Steel down pipe, and simply utilize my existing oil lines, drain lines, water lines, MSM charge pipes and intercooler. (And no I use my own custom oil feed/drain and water lines. We probably just talking using a two pieces to adapt the intake to the compressor inlet, and another piece to connect the compressor oulet to the existing MSM charge pipes...

Now that would be hot, nice, cheap, and could be had for 1,250-1,500 dollars in used condition :) And considering using an AEM MSM Intake and a Bell Engineering throttle body inlet hose, and a forge motorsports recirculating by pass valve, you would have a pretty damn good turbo assembly. And yeah, like I said... Sell the MSM manifold, IHI turbo, and outlet, and heatshields all that shit... Make about 300-400 dollars on that. :)

You know I may be on to something. If any of you guys got an Mazdaspeed Miata, you just try replacing the manifold, turbo, and outlet with BEGI's Shangai Series Turbocharger, manifold, and downpipe. Get you that good begi throttle body intake pipe, recirculating valve, and an AEM intake, and retrofit your existing turbo lines and charge pipes to work with the Chinacharger. It may take nothing but a reclocking of the compressor wheel and you'll have one nice setup. Save you some money cause you could utilize your existing MSM 28x7.5x 2.5 ebay intercooler and charge pipes, which I don't really find to be bad at all...

I don't know... 3.63 gears would be a bit steep on my 170 rwhp car, but I bet that shit is good for 250 rwhp. :)

I'm not sure where this misconception about MSM turbo failures come from, but I've been on the MSM site for years and there have only been a hand full of turbo failures reported and all were pushing the turbo far beyond it's limits. I've decided to do a turbo upgrade. I'm sending my turbo off to have it ported and a bigger wheel installed. This should run around 500 to 600 bucks and I've seen guys pushing 240-260 rwhp with similar upgrades.

How about someone make a manifold that has a T2 flange that directly replaces the MSM manifold and a downpipe that mates up to the MSM downpipe (after that cast POS piece that bolts to the turbo...where the FM downpipe bolts to) that fits a good Garrett turbo?

Oh wait...

:giggle:

Are you telling me you can make that, or were you just waiting for a cup of coffee... :laugh:

I do like the begi cast iron manifold, it is a work of art and haven't heard manifold cracking probs to be an issue. My setup is sorta hybrid. I am using a stock 99-05 downpipe, a 2.5 inch 99-05 FM midpipe, and a 2.5 inch enthuza dual exhaust. It bolts together perfectly. You might be like, oh wait that spool up is slow but it isn't. The diameter of that header to midpipe piece is the same as the diameter of that POS MSM cast turbo outlet and there is no catalytic converter in my 99-05 downpipe either. Spool up is amazingly fast.