Miata Hardtop Pricing Bubble
 

I haven't been in the Miata scene TOO terribly long, but a couple years ago (at least around here) hardtops were available fairly regularly for 500-800. Then they were 800ish consistantly. Now it's pretty common to see them for $1,000-$1,300 if they're nice.

I just checked, and my insurance company values it at $200.

It seems to me that the main reason for the hardtop "bubble" is because the OEM one is the only one that really fits well.

Although I just saw this: Smooth Line: Hardtop: Miata which is a brand new top for $1,000 and I know there are some other companies out there making a "race" top for much less, it just isn't perfect fitment (yet.)

So what do you think? It has been TWENTY FIVE YEARS since the NA/NB oem hardtop was designed..tech has come a long ways! How long before someone out there capitalizes on this pricing bubble, and comes up with a brand new, lightweight top that FITS WELL, and it's available for ~$800 brand new shipped to your door? I don't think it's that far off..

What will happen to the price of OEM tops? Or do you think we're destined to just run out of them as ricers crash them, and no one will ever match the technological glory of 25 year old Mazda?

Insurance companies can and will pay out far more than $200 for a hardtop.

I'm sure they will, as they're required to give some sort of "real market value" but the actual book value of KBB and NADA is like $200 or 5% of the value of the car.

I've wondered myself why there hasn't been a good aftermarket hardtop submitted to the market.

My assumption is that it has to do with the cost of manufacturing being far greater than the potential number of actual purchasers willing to pay enough to cover the cost of fabrication/production.

That said, I don't foresee any end to the OEM hardtop "bubble". Because OEM yo.

A OEM quality HT will cost more to make than the OEM top costed new ($1500?). Add the shipping cost into the mix (customers will not be local) and it will be hard/impossible to compete with even $1200 refurbished OEM HTs (new paint and new rubbers). OEM-quality latches, hooks etc will not make it cheaper either.

Is it possible to make molds that will produce well fitting HT shells, sure, but they will be a bit heavier than the lightest flimsiest version that some racers might want.

The market for non-OEM tops are not homogeneous, to say the least.

The last top I fetched was 380 euros in Hamburg (odd color, a black one was 500).

The 93 we have has a Snugtop hardtop. It's honestly not terrible. With some OEM seals on it, it's fine. The latch mounting sucks and breaks, so i just got on the train when Garagestar made Spec-Miata-ish mounting brackets for the Snugtop.

you can thank spec miata rules for the prices of hard tops. Unless that series opens it up to aftermarket tops (unlikely) they will just get more and more expensive. :party:

I have a race top that I purchased bare for over $500. Though it serves a purpose, it is a total piece of shit. I spent a week of my time getting the thing to fit and look remotely as good as an OEM top. It would take me another week to get it to actually seal tightly. How much do you think that would cost for a professional to do that? There are a lot of materials involved to go from a race top to a nicely sealed top.

There is not a chance in hell that any company will produce a top that is half as good as OEM for $800.00. As Miatas get rarer, factory components are going to go up. It has been like that for as long as cars have been in production.

Apparently it is likely, soon hopefully.

"Bubble" implies that it is going to burst and that prices will drop, which isn't going to happen.

I agree on the prices being oddly high for hardtops. Also depends on your area. In the SF Bay Area, ppl are asking between $1,000- $1,300 for a decent hardtop. One's beat up w/o glass are going for sub $1k.

I was able to pick a 2005 oem hardtop in Los Angeles for $850, so to get a better price, you may have to drive further out of your radius for a decent price.

I think it is partly an issue with people confusing asking price and selling price and then over asking slightly more each time. The long term effect is price inflation. Around here I see a lot of turds listed for $1000 and occasionally I will see a red hardtop with paint chipping that the seller wants $1200 for. I don't know anyone who has paid that much for one.

They are pretty expensive, but as far as hard tops go they are cheap. When I wanted one for my MR2 they were like $2500, and had to be imported from the UK. Luckily there are enough miata hard tops floating around that they are selling for at least attainable prices. I'm pretty sure an S2K hardtop is more expensive too.

No one has bothered to mention another real big problem that price inflation causes: THEFT! I'm afraid to park my car in most areas around the bay area when I have the HT on. Tops can and do get snatched here in mere seconds. (BTW, CL ads are the best place to locate your top if it gets stolen) Security hardware can help, but it's still not infallible to a determined thief given a little more time.

paying over $1k for a top seems crazy to me considering the prices of the cars themselves. It is what it is, but picking up a decent priced NB and then forking out that much for a HT is rough. Read up on the snugtops and decided it wasn't worth the poor fit and headaches. I'll be keeping an eye out for an OEM top and dealing with haggling for a hopefully reasonable price. Major bonus if I can get one in green mica, or at least black so it's kind of close to my green nb.

It's funny because you truly can't get more than ~$2000 for a fair condition 1.6, maybe $2500, even with a hardtop. But you can easily flip the hardtop for $1000-1200, and still sell the car for $2000.

A local just did this, $1000 for the car+hardtop, then sold the hardtop for $1000. Free Miata! That was a smoking good deal though.

Really speaks to the regional differences in prices too. In the Northeast, I can't imagine finding anything near that deal unless it was a complete rusted out basket case. Seen some like that, but you get either a crap body, or a crap engine. sometimes both.

I bought a rusted out 90 with a hardtop for $1200 a couple years ago. Parted the car out and made way more than $1200 while keeping the hardtop for my own car.

I don't think "bubble" is an accurrate term - bubble describes something that is likely to "pop" in the near future. T think the current hard top pricing is more of a "hill".

I did pick up a white car for 1700 with a white hardtop a couple years back, and then several months later, I picked up a red car for 1600 with a mint condition red hardtop (guy bought the car new in 93 with a HT, stuck HT in basement, and it collected dust for 20 years) Also picked up a black NB with a HT for 3500, later sold the car sans hardtop for $4300.

It seems that the cheapest way to buy a hardtop is with a car attached. This will likely continue until the day that the Miata is no longer a popular low-cost racing car....

This is the only way I have heard of anyone getting a cheap hardtop around here.

I just saw a NA6 OEM hard top, the one with less insulation and no defrost sell for $1500. But that was among racers where OEM is required. I need to find an OEM hard top for my car since a bolted on OEM top would let the car run a couple different classes easily. My plan is to just wait for a $2000 POS to come on craigslist with a top on it and pull the top then hold the car till spring and sell it for the same money.

I am seriously looking hard at welding some nice DOM tube from my ghetto roll bar to the windshield pillars, then running a piece of DOM down to the trunk area somehow to make a structure for a fast back. From there I might just ghetto it up even more and just rivet aluminum sheets to that and put in a flat lexan window. I got my car for 2200, screw paying half that for a HT.

To be fair, the ZZW30 with a hardtop is a fine looking machine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...W30_racing.jpg

I disagree wholeheartedly.

A stiffer version of my bikini inspired flop top then?
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1408029237
:D

But if you want real inspiration, find the Fastback made by LightYear.
Forming the shape from plastic sheets can probably be done, but good fitment around the door windows requires some mad fab skills.

flannel and fiberglass resin, make a hard top out of your soft top frame.

That awesome bit of work he did inspire me. That was pretty great.

I doubt I will come anywhere close to that nice a product, but then that's OK because DILLIGAF.

I wanted a really nice looking car I would have bought an NB.

Your solution there is pretty epic.

RANT/

I guess I just don't understand why someone could not make a roll bar with some brackets on it. These in turn anchor one side of a very simple rectangular fiberglass T-Top, with the other side of this T-Top using stock latches to the windshield support. The back portion of the top is similarly attached to brackets on the bar and anchored with some stock-ish hardware ahead of the truck lid. Optional is a hinged setup (which could still easily be affixed to the same brackets on the central roll bar) that allows for ditching the truck lid and running a fastback. Have some narrow modules for the sides and top and done.

The T-Top would need a slight curvature downward on the sides to locate window seals well. The side modules would have a slight curvature to look right and provide the side seals for the windows. The top module is a simply arc more or less. Let the side modules come up to it since they already have the curves for the windows. The top might even be doable as a pure rectangle. The back is the only really complex shape. It could even be shipped windowless and have people source lexan themselves. A square window fastback would still look pretty nice.

My point is that a modular deal that used a roll bar might be a sight easier to make, to ship, and even to get fitted right, and it would not be all that heavy. Basically a OEM weight plus extra brackets and seals. Lexan window might make up for a lot of it. Certainly not a big deal for street cars anyway.

/RANT

Sparetire, I don't really follow you. Can you draw it? From your description that sounds like it would be a lot more complicated to make since it has more parts that need to fit together well.

I searched for a solid month about and managed to find a decent oem top with defrost for $700. It needs a nice sanding and paint but there were no chips in it other than a few scratches and the latches were in decent condition. I called insurance and they wanted about an extra $200 on my 6 month premium to insure the top on the car. Raising my full overage payment from $120 a month to $155.

You are so soooooo wrong, my friend.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1408048154




And just in case you think it's the rest of the car that makes it...

FOR SALE: 2003 TOYOTA MR2 SPYDER, 5sp, 55K -- with OEM Hardtop

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1408048154



10/10, would bang.

In fact, i'm currently trying to dump my Miata to get into one of those machines.

I think they are both ugly. Its like an even worse looking gen1 boxster and that is a pretty low bar my friend.

All i'm sayin' is that my car is a big ricey wing away from being set up about the same as that black Spyder, and there's no way in hell i'd put the Miata in the same solar system as that hot little number.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1408049472

This thread inspired me to do a little searching locally, since winter is approaching.

Found this gem: Mazda Miata Hard Top Red 1992

There's a red early OEM one locally for 1k looks decent its the lightest one legal for racing. Otherwise there's currently no other hard tops on craigslist in new england on cars or off.

I'm going to have to agree here... that is a sensual MR2. Here's his build thread: LINK

Which contains several track pictures and this:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1408052709


In the midwest I was able to score a color matched top with defrost for $1000. I had to drive 3 hours to get it, it's covered in scratches and some light gouges, no cracks. Had to clean a ton of plasti-dip off, and use neigh-on a gallon of touch up around the edges. I probably would not have done it if it wasn't the right color; but you're looking at $700 for a nice repaint.

It was worth it. Putting the soft-top in the basement was very satisfying. Rennen brackets work nicely after figuring out some spacers. Shade plus 1/4 window vents and I don't miss having the top down (that much).

Folks in the bay area are starting to ask 1300-1500 now for hardtops on Craigslist.

Kind of scary... especially if they are selling them for that.

Not the same car, but that one is pretty cool, too!

The thing about the OEM HT is that it has a fairly substantial STEEL frame. It's not just a skin of fiberglass for rain protection and aero. It's the best damn chassis brace you can put on an uncaged Miata. It's easily 3x as effective as a $400 butterfly.

I am not saying you are wrong but I have seen some busted up hardtops and no evidence of a steel frame.

Yep, they are definitely trending up in the area. You can still find them here and there for less, but you have to be quick; like within the hour.

My guess is that you could get this guy to part with his for a lot less than that:

2002 Mazda Miata MX-5

or this one:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/pts/4564476952.html

The MR-S seems to be a great car but the owners group has an average IQ of potato. The responses to Mikey's K20 swapped MR-S in particular were incredible.
What thickness and at what points? I was really surprised how bad the hardtop fits with those things... I've got it closer but still not happy with it.

Ya, you're right. The part that I thought was steel is just injection molded plastic. Whatever. It transformed my car.

I'm greatly interested by the fact that I've heard numerous people indicate that installing a hard top on their car caused it to become much more rigid.

Beyond the simple fact that the notion of 30 lbs of plastic sheet adding chassis stiffness is preposterous, I go back to my own personal experience of having run a hardtop, very occasionally, on my 90 and 92 cars. While the hardtop obviously cut down on wind noise dramatically, it's presence greatly increased the amount of squeaking present in the cabin, serving as a reminder of just how much chassis flex was actually going on.

Rennenmetal brackets with factory plastic panels hashed out ITT: https://www.miataturbo.net/general-m...nfusion-79145/

After fiddling with the solid, one piece brackets, I was able to nearly eliminate all hardtop rattles, squeaks, and leaks. One thing that was paramount was getting the chrome latches tighter on the Frankenstein's Monster's bolts, which was done easily with some flat washers. You also need to put some kind of padding under the latch. Gorilla tape folded over a couple times works for now, but a thin piece of foam or mouse pad would work nicely.

Why not? You think that 5# of sheet metal bolted to the floor pan has any affect? Hint: it does, which is why the FM butterfly brace sells. It's also not just "plastic", but SMC, which is fiberglass reinforced and also molded into a shape conducive to bracing the part that flexes the most.

I have had exactly the opposite experience. Since mounting my HT (including side latches, which are extremely important), my dash/console no longer squeaks like before. Add in the fact that wind noise is greatly reduced, and it becomes a much more civilized environment.

While not as much rigidity is added as a decent roll bar, it is noticeably better than the soft top and no other bracing.

My OEM hardtop has easily been the best fix for NVH and the slight 65mph shimmy I had going on. My rollbar did very little, the FM frame rails provided protection from scrapes and that's about it, but that hardtop completely transformed at least how it feels driving it on everyday roads.

Comparatively speaking, yes.

FM's undercarriage brace is made from a material which is quite stiff (steel), and is rigidly fastened to the chassis in 16 locations, with bolts. (It also weighs 32 lbs according to FM, not 5.)

The factory HT is made from a material which is highly flexible and somewhat elastic, and it is mounted to the body with a handful of latches and studs designed to afford easy adjustability and fast, tool-less removal.



Yes, the overall effect is a more civilized car. Less buffeting, less wind noise, less water entry... But even though I had all six attachment points in both cars (franky bolts, side latches, front latches) and they were all adjusted as well as possible, there was a lot more squeaking in the cabin, in the form of the seal at the lower rear edge of the top rubbing against the trim strip of the body, with the top than without it. That's not conjecture.

But geometrically Joe, using a wet noodle turn the car into a coupe is going to add significantly more stiffness than gluing an uncooked noodle to the frame rails.

:bowrofl:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1408114998

I always wondered why that is. The earlier MR-2s have had people do just about everything to them but all I ever see on an MR-S is dress up parts.

There's some good MR-S builds out there. Fact is, there weren't a whole lot of them. The slice of the community is about the same as the Miata community. 80% mentally challenged, 18% old men wiping the car down with diapers, and 2% with an IQ greater than eggplant.

There's just a smaller sample size to begin with, so there's not enough of the 2% (MiataTurbo equivalent) to create their own community.

If/when i get one, i'll probably just do the build thread here because i hate sorting through bullshit.

My OEM hard top has decreased the stupid miata wobble/shimmie/whatever its called. By a very noticeable/significant amount. I've tested this at least a dozen times to make sure its not placebo effect. Not as effective as roll bar, but anyone that thinks I'm making this up is welcome to stop by for an on/off test. Agan, VERY significant difference with HT on vs off.

+1 to this.

Hardtop made ours feel like a car, not some limpdick floppy piece of crap that feels like it's going to fly apart on the highway.

Same with mine. The shimmy at 65 isn't bad with the top down, but it's gone with the hardtop.

Well, I guess when I get home from this deployment a second Miata will be in my future.

Location, location, location. The way I see it (meaning mostly just educated guessing) the major problem with the NA is a lack of torsional rigidity. In my minds eye I see the chassis twisting around an axis somewhere inside the transmission tunnel. The FM frame rail covers are made of steel and fastened to the floor of the car with a whole bunch of fasteners, but they're not really located where their stiffness can do much good. I added a pair and didn't perceive much difference. I have a butterfly from FM that never got installed because it reduces ground clearance and frankly I just don't see how it could add enough rigidity to be worth it. Keith has written that in his opinion the rail covers do more that the butterfly. (If anyone wants my butterfly pm me with an offer. I'm too lazy to list it.)

Getting back to the goal of improving torsional rigidity, the top of the windshield is far from the twist axis and thus provides better leverage for the hardtop to work. It's true that if you grab an unmounted hardtop you can twist it pretty easily, but the frame rail covers and butterfly twist easily too. Fortunately, none of them need to support torsional loads when the whole car twists. The hardtop needs to keep the top of the windshield from moving from side to side and it's actually pretty stiff in that direction even though it's made of fiberglass and tempered glass and a little bit of plastic.

I don't know what to tell you. My top has never squeaked even when the latches were not adjusted well. I didn't even realize that the rear brackets (Frankenstein bolts) could be adjusted and one of them was pretty sloppy for a while. Even when everything was not as tight as it could be I perceived an improvement in the stiffness of the car. When I managed to get everything tightened down really well I perceived an additional improvement.

Could it have been placebo? I don't know; I never took any quantitative measurements, but I believe the improvement to be real. I wanted the frame rail covers to make the car awesome, but they didn't. On the other hand I bought the hardtop for an HPDE and wasn't really expecting it to make the car feel different, but it did.

One thing I can say with absolute certainty: the hardtop killed cowl shake almost completely. There can be no illusion there. That alone makes the hardtop worth the price.

I have the Rennenmetal SM brackets now. They might have provided an improvement over tight latches, maybe not. They definitely are better than loose latches and it was getting hard for me to keep the side latches tight. I'd like to make a bolt-on bracket for the rears, but I can't get the stupid Frankenstein bolts out!

Frame rails really help with firming up the seats... I can attest to this, 2x.
As someone who is now at 245lbs... I had them installed when I was up at 265lbs.
The first thing I noticed was how the seats no longer leaned or gave when I sat down.
A lot firmer.

All you skinny guys wouldn't notice this difference either way... but I did.
Same thing happened when we did them a 2nd time on our other NA.

Firm seat. Less give. Strengthened up the seating area.

And... as someone who once tore a hole in the floor pan of my 5.0 from my weight and overaggressive shifting... it was a godsend.

Xida 600/300 harddog door bars,fm frame rails. I had the shitty 65mph shimmy. Bought new TRM c1m 15x7 and 205 rivals, still had a shimmy at 65, after Road forcing them to under 10lbs still had the shimmy, i tried road forcing them again 3 more times with no difference.

Just picked up a hardtop and now the shimmy is gone, true story

No scientific data, but my car feels much looser hard top off than hard top on. More squeaks and rattles without the hard top, plus it feels like the body flexes more over uneven surfaces like highway joints.

I don't understand people saying they need to add padding underneath the frankenstein bolt latches. From Mazda there should be a rubber pad attached exactly in this location to stop clunks. I also adjusted them to hold the rubber snugly against the body with no gap.

Pic? My car came with no such padding.