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Old 12-18-2014, 09:58 PM   #1
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Default No spark or fuel in my 96 Miata.

So, I'm ready to stab a baby. I inherited a miata that has been sitting for 5 or so years. I put a fresh battery in it and tried to fire it up but I wasn't getting fuel. I pulled the fuel pump and it was totally trashed:



At that point I didn't even think to look for spark, because the pump is so clearly garbage. I replaced the pump with a walbro and replaced the tank as it was full of **** too and I found a good clean one for $100.

Today I dropped the tank and pump in. Put a freshly charged battery in, and it turns over but won't crank. The fuel pump is working, and getting power. I'm getting power to the coil connectors. I luckily bought another 96 Miata parts car, so I pulled the coils from it. Same. I thought it might be the CAS, so I pulled that off the parts car and replaced it too. No change.

My plugs are dry, so the injectors aren't firing. I'm getting pressure at the rail though.

I pulled a plug and wire and turned it over, no spark either.

The CEL comes on when I turn the key on, as it should, but it has no codes, probably because it won't run. Anyone have any ideas? I'm running out of them.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:15 PM   #2
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Have you checked the fuses underhood? I mean the big ones.
Also, how about the main relay - also under the hood?

Also, check ground connections just below the TB and the one between the IM and the valve cover, again, just behind the TB. Those are important ground points for fuel and spark.

If you have jumper cables, attach one end to the engine bare metal, and the other end to unpainted chassis member. Try that for the hell of it, you'd be amazed at what happens to electrical connectors if a car sits for too long in adverse conditions.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:18 PM   #3
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Also, if what's pictured in your post happens to a fuel pump, consider the fact that the same thing just may happen to your injectors, which are not too dissimilar in terms of structure (windings and moving bits) and environment.

I would definitely change the oil before I circulated that stuff too much in the engine.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
Have you checked the fuses underhood? I mean the big ones.
Also, how about the main relay - also under the hood?

Also, check ground connections just below the TB and the one between the IM and the valve cover, again, just behind the TB. Those are important ground points for fuel and spark.

If you have jumper cables, attach one end to the engine bare metal, and the other end to unpainted chassis member. Try that for the hell of it, you'd be amazed at what happens to electrical connectors if a car sits for too long in adverse conditions.
All the fuses seem fine, I'll check them with a multimeter tomorrow. I'll also check the grounds, but I didn't see any that looked bad.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
Also, if what's pictured in your post happens to a fuel pump, consider the fact that the same thing just may happen to your injectors, which are not too dissimilar in terms of structure (windings and moving bits) and environment.

I would definitely change the oil before I circulated that stuff too much in the engine.
Yeah I considered the injectors, but it seems unlikely that they are all so clogged no fuel at all gets through, and that doesn't explain the lack of fire. I already out clean oil in it.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:49 PM   #6
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step 1 would be undoing the injectors, getting a hose to flush the crap out of there. Most motorcycles get gummed up over the winter without stabill and this sat for 5 years.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:53 PM   #7
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step 1 would be undoing the injectors, getting a hose to flush the crap out of there. Most motorcycles get gummed up over the winter without stabill and this sat for 5 years.
I flushed the lines. I'll pull the injector rail tomorrow, but that still wouldn't explain the lack of spark. I was hoping I was overlooking some main relay or something that would kill both spark and fuel.
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:16 PM   #8
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If you have a multimeter, check the resistance between the block and the chassis first. A lot of ground connections may look OK, but you would not know for sure unless you physically remove and clean them.
I use dielectric spray just to be on the safe side.

Please remember this is a very "cold" car and assume the weirdest might have happened.
I would tap and wiggle the relays under the dash, too.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:02 AM   #9
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is the fuel filter clogged?
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:20 AM   #10
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is the fuel filter clogged?
Replaced today, pulled off the line in the engine compartment and verified fuel is getting to the rail.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
If you have a multimeter, check the resistance between the block and the chassis first. A lot of ground connections may look OK, but you would not know for sure unless you physically remove and clean them.
I use dielectric spray just to be on the safe side.

Please remember this is a very "cold" car and assume the weirdest might have happened.
I would tap and wiggle the relays under the dash, too.
I'll try checking the grounds tomorrow.
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Old 12-19-2014, 03:18 PM   #12
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So far I've checked every ground I can find, all looked fine, but I took them off, hit both sides with a little bit of sandpaper, and reconnected snugly. No change.

I'm gonna check all the underhood fuses since I have spares, it was been jumped off a bunch of times and one or more could be blown, that's the next logical thing that might explain it.
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Old 12-19-2014, 05:49 PM   #13
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Replaced main EFI relay with known good, still no start but I did manage to lose some weight off my thumb extracting the relay, so that's a plus.
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Old 12-19-2014, 06:29 PM   #14
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What year Miata is this?

Had a similar issue with an old NA6 and it turned out to be an internal ground failure in the AFM flapper. Would ground so it wouldn't prime the pump, power the pump, or send spark signal. (As I recall)
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:13 PM   #15
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I had a somewhat similar issue with no fuel/spark that turned out to be a broken timing belt. Test the CAS while you crank and see if you get pulse. If you don't, remove the CAS and do the test again, this time spinning the CAS with your hand, slowly. See if you get 5v pulses during either test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=327229
Same basic test for all NAs.

Test the CAS by back probing the wires at the connector with a digital voltmeter. Leave the CAS connected, but as a safety precaution disconnect coils so engine won't try to fire. With ignition on, White/Red wire should have battery voltage (12V). Black/Lt. Green wire goes to ground (0V). Turning engine slowly so you can read the voltmeter, the White wire and the Yellow/Blue wire should both fluctuate from 0 to 5 volts. One should pulse 4 times per CAS revolution, the other should pulse once. Don't remember off the top of my head which is which. Remember, you'll have to turn the crankshaft two revolutions for one CAS revolution.

If the CAS does not pass this test, remove the connector and test for proper voltages at the connector.
White/Red= 12V
White= 5V
Yellow/Blue= 5V
Black/Lt Green= 0V (ground)
edit: Oh I see you said you replaced the CAS already. Oh well, have you had the valve cover off yet? Pull that **** off and see if the cams are spinning when you crank it.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onyxyth View Post
I had a somewhat similar issue with no fuel/spark that turned out to be a broken timing belt. Test the CAS while you crank and see if you get pulse. If you don't, remove the CAS and do the test again, this time spinning the CAS with your hand, slowly. See if you get 5v pulses during either test.



edit: Oh I see you said you replaced the CAS already. Oh well, have you had the valve cover off yet? Pull that **** off and see if the cams are spinning when you crank it.
I looked through the oil filler cap and the cam was spinning when it's cranking, I'll test the CAS if I run out of other ideas but I doubt I have two bad ones.
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Old 12-19-2014, 07:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkythesharkdogg View Post
What year Miata is this?

Had a similar issue with an old NA6 and it turned out to be an internal ground failure in the AFM flapper. Would ground so it wouldn't prime the pump, power the pump, or send spark signal. (As I recall)
96, so no flapper. I did try cranking it with the MAF unplugged and that didn't change anything, on a lot of cars if the MAF is bad, unplugging it will let it crank in limp mode. I can try the MAF off the parts car though.
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Old 12-20-2014, 02:36 PM   #18
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You say you have another 96 as a parts car.

Change the coil pack.

I have a 96 and faced a similar issue sometime ago. We changed the pack and everything was good from then on.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafa View Post
You say you have another 96 as a parts car.

Change the coil pack.

I have a 96 and faced a similar issue sometime ago. We changed the pack and everything was good from then on.
Coil pack and Cam sensor off the parts car were the first things I did. No change. When I left last night I was still not getting fuel or fire.

Now I'm really confused. I've done absolutely nothing since yesterday in terms of "fixing" anything. I got in today, found the OBD2 connector hidden in the center stack and hooked up my scan tool. I went into data stream KOEO looking for clues like a lack of signal for a cam or crank sensor or no communication to ECU or something that might point me in the right direction.

Everything seemed to be working, so I kicked the key over. Now it's firing both fuel and spark.

I verified less than 24 hours ago it was getting neither. I pulled every plug wire and got no spark while cranking on any of them. I pulled every plug and they were all bone dry after literally a full minute of cranking.

Now i have fuel on the plugs and every plug wire firing. I have literally no idea why.

It still won't run, though it gets really close and even pops over a few revolutions after I release the key. I'm thinking I need to set my timing, as I swapped out the cam sensor, but I have no idea how to do so since the normal procedure involves a running engine.
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Old 12-20-2014, 05:48 PM   #20
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Sounds like magic.

Have you made any adjustments to where the CAS sits? Try to start it with the cas in a few different positions.

Have you you verified mechanical timing is OK, and not skipped a tooth?
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