Pricing a "mild" build
 

I've been looking for hours and here's what I've discovered.

My longtime goal of 220whp is totally do-able with my current T25/MS at around 12-13psi. The car will be daily driven @wastegate 8psi and a dash switch to engage EBC a couple times per week. I would love to get 100k+ miles out of an engine. I've just purchased a complete used motor (high miles but babied) I'll be running in the meantime. I'm going to purchase parts and what not over the next 6-8months and need something just a little better "more reliable" than stock. I know that guys run mild boost on stock motors for 100k miles or more... but I don't mind spending a little extra money to get a lot better reliability.

Pistons: Stock w/ceramic on the doam, dry-film skirt, bottom coat.

Rods: Stock

Rings: Brand... seems to be quite a few w/several different metals and treatment options. What to buy and what to treat them with

Head Rebuild: I see the FM spring kit... used w/stock valves? Is there another "kit" out there and do I need better than OEM. Nobody seems to have many head issues on moderate boost like I'm running. I'm going to keep the stock 7200rpm redline... or maybe even lower it a little for the street.

Head Porting: just inquiring as to cost vs. gain and will a port job require oversized valves?

Manifold: Is there anything to be gained in porting/working the intake manifold... cost vs. gain?

Gaskets/Bearings/EngineRebuildKit: http://www.rpmmachine.com/engine-reb...ts-mazda.shtml I see this and think that it's a pretty good deal. Obviously I want all new seals and bearings and shit, but it even comes w/pistons, only doesn't come with rods. What kind of quality is offered in "kits" like this.

Re-Using what I've got: What's wrong with having my current pistons/rods/rings/crank removed, treated/cleaned/whatever and reinstalling them with all new seals/bearings? What am I going to need done to the block itself? I can dismantle everything, but I want someone else to do the build.

What other little bullshit pieces am I not mentioning?

I think this thread can be a good read for a lot of people. I need the gurus to really spell it out for me. What is really needed, and what is it gonna cost? What are the little "hangups" during a build and what do I need to be wary of when talking to a shop.

Shawn has recommended a good shop in town that he trusts, so I'm gonna talk to them. I just want to be well armed with the lingo.

Thanks for reading the whole post if you did... -Sam

if you want the cheapest, get new pistons "oem type" $31ea. then a better ring set $110. get the walls honed. reuse the rods and call it a day. If you are really feeling like you need more buy a set of belfab rods. Reused the head gasket you just installed.

http://www.importperformanceparts.net/ (topline pistsons, toga rings)

Sam, if you are going to disassemble and build a motor, you may as well do it correctly once. Going with a set of inexpensive forged rods and oversize pistons will cost you about $500 or so more than staying with stock stuff. At minimum, I'd go with the forged rods. You're probably looking at $2000 or so on a mild shortblock with budget forged internals and machine shop labor, with your own assembly.

this is why i opted to find a cheap ass good block. even if I invested the bare minimum on parts, it was more than i wanted to spend just getting it back on the road.

i mean, if you still just get forged pistons (weicos $510 stock bore w/rings) and belfab or ETD rod ($350 or $530), you're close to 1k or over in parts alone. getting it honed won't cost too much. however, your power goal still isn't one to justify it, imho. The weak link are the ring/ringland, next the rods. I have yet to see a rod go, it's always the rings and ringlands.

If it were me I'd either get it running again on the cheap, or I'd do a mild rebuild on your existing block and try to do something about the rings and call it a day.

Sam, i am in a similar boat as you, except my build is planned for late next year/early 2009...no hurry for me since im doing it on a spare motor i have laying around with bad rings...
My plans include rods, pistons/rings, oil pump gear (i hope loki hooks it up), knife edged crank, full valve train with 1mm over sized valves, a proper head job, etc.
my goal for said motor is north of 300 whp revving to 8K or so (undecided), the key to make my build possible is the fact that im gathering the parts over a prolonged time and once i have everything i need/can afford i will be taking it to a well known shop for the work on the block/crank/head and assembly
i hope this helps you in your vision...

^Brain, That's kinda the route I was looking at.
Just get stock treated pistons, and "upgraded" treated rings... then an otherwise OEM rebuild.

^Whaam... I like it, but I'm shooting for a lower power goal. What does "knife-edging" a crank entail? How much do you buy $$ vs. power with a valve job. Are we talking about top-end/spool/response? Am I even in the arena for larger valves? I don't think I need much more than pistons/rings and a rebuild.

My biggest concern is buying a brand that turns out to be junk. $31 for a piston seems crazy! I never new they cost so little.

If I bought 4 pistons like that, and had them treated... looks like only $25per piston/pin for the tri-coat: http://performancecoatings.com/prices.html It looks like we're only talking about just $275 total including shipping. Those pistons come with rings... but I'd opt for the Toga rings at $109.

The Toga rings say this:
Top Piston Ring: is Plasma Moly inlaid for long life and quick seating. Rings are ductile and can be twisted without fracturing. Thin ring to conform to flexing bores.
Second Piston Ring: are cast iron torsional twist, and offer good ware resistance and shaped to encourage downward oil scraping.
Oil Ring: three piece circumferential type made of stainless steel with two chromium plated carbon steel rails. Extra narrow rails are made to conform to the shape of distorted bores.
Do I have to do anything to them, or is this better than OEM already?

Ben, I hear what you're saying, but I don't really think I need the rods. I'd love the Belfabs... but if I've gotta keep some sort of budget, I think this is an area where I can.

Then I can buy one of the "rebuild" kits that comes with all the gaskets/seals/etc... and call it a day for the bottom end right?

NOW, what about the HEAD? Is there anything to be gained in my application w/going to higher quality parts? I know the aforementioned local shop can do the work and get parts, but is it better to rebuild or buy rebuilt? Valve coating is also $7.50per... so were talking about $120 to do them all... worth it?

LASTLY (maybe): Can I buy all these parts, send the block out to be honed/cleaned/etc... and put the whole thing back together myself? You guys know my skills... pretty decent with all the right tools. Is it more than I want to mess with. Parts aside, how much $$ am I talking about to get somebody to ready the block and put it all together?

dont crack open a block unless you are going to at least put in decent rods, JMHO

I don't feel like reading what sam just said above because it was entirely too long. My only qualm was the fact that @300 bucks you might as well put in belfab rods.

in a nutshell, doing head work will improve spool especially with bigger turbo aps.
the valve train is there to allow for the higher revs

Sam, we're all on budgets. What is your budget? What is your goal? From reading your equipment list, I'd assume that your goal is more oriented to quick/immediate spool and gobs o torque down low.

Now, let's look at the common failures associated with boosting a motor. From what I see, in order of most common to least
1. piston failure, at the ringland. typical cause: detonation
2. head gasket failure. typical cause: incorrect hardware torque or overheat
3. pretzelized rods. typical cause: high rpm or nasty detonation

Solutions:
1. Why spend $300 on OEM type pistons when you can get oversized forged pistons (with rings) starting in the mid $400s? The forged pistons will be MUCH stronger in the event of detonation and won't come apart.
2. Use ARP hardware, and check torque after the first drive
3. Forged Rods are only $300 at the low end

Between 1&3, we're talking around $450 extra for the hard parts plus whatever your machine shop charges to bore your cylinders. The benefits will be a virtually indestructable motor and the bigger jugs will spool the snail sooner and offer more power, or equivelent power at less boost.

Now, assume you go with oem pistons and rods, and a ringland comes apart, or detonation takes out a rod. What's it going to cost you (time and money) to pull the motor back out?

That's why I say you might as well do it right once.

I don't think you need to touch the head for your goals. There's no need to get into the springs and lifters at stockish rev limits. However, some DIY porting (like what Brian did for Scott) will tremendously help spool. I would not get into OS valves, however I would unshround and do a valve job. Save the OS valve money and put it towards the block or to adjustable cam gears.

On top of the other stuff you've listed, you'll need a multitude of bearings, an oil pump, a water pump + guides and tensioners, an ARP hardware set. You'll also want to have the crank checked for trueness, and if not lightened, at minimum filmed to shed oil (reduces windage losses).

Yeah, you probably can do the assembly work yourself. Just take lots of pics and notes. But it's only a little 4 cyl, so it's not too tough.

My .02 x 2

I am spending $1100 with a respected SM builder who's put together a handfull of FI cars that are famously reliable around here. I'm getting a bore on a plate, line bore / turning the crank if necessary, bearings, valve guides, balancing the rotating mass, and assembly since I don't have precision tools. It will be cheaper if the crank is ok. Its more than I wanted to spend considering I already dropped $800 on rods and pistons, but I can live with the cash because I'm fairly confident that it will be a strong motor. I'm still undecided on piston coatings.

thats what i was thinking for myself, to do the assembly on my own and then take it to the shop with flywheel and clutch assembled and have the whole unit balanced...
or do you do this balancing with crank out of clock? im a little confeused

Hell at that goal if you can maintain a good tune that's knock free you don't even need to open the motor. I probably got 35K miles on my bone stock '90 1.6 FMII that made 220whp that started with 110K miles and ended at about 145K miles when I jacked the boost up to 16 psi, sprayed a 50 shot, and went lean and shot a rod through the block at the dragstrip. That was with the original FMII Link with a few improvements.

Frank

balance is outside the block.

the problem is sam's engine needs work. so while it's all apart and while he may need new rings anyways he looking to do a mild build.

I'd rather build a cast motor with ETD rods and ceramic coated pistons including the machine work rather than throw a crap motor in and do the labor twice. I'm lazy.

My car has been running for the last few months with my $200 block.....Now I have a spare head and block sitting on the floor of my garage....the day I feel the need to start pushing over 12-14psi is the day ill drop it off to get bore out and start collecting parts.

Ben, I'm with you on the "only $500 more to do it right"... and then I run into a post like this: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...98&postcount=9 I've seen the same thing said about forged pistons before (problems with expansion during the heat) and that a lot of guys will say they're too many possible problems for the strength benefit... especially for my modest goals.

I totally love the idea of new rods now though... so if there's a set of those you've got for sale reserved for me (Paypal can be on the way today), then consider a set sold. If they're already spoken for, then I guess it's Belfabs... maybe a group-buy will pop up.

And I'm gonna leave the head alone as far as hardware but will have it rebuild/unshrouded/etc.

It looks like the going price for a head/main ARP stud set is gonna be around $250... but some guys quote shops being able to get the stuff for much less.

I'm learning more and more with every post, everybody thanks for your time posting in this thread!!!

Sam, the weakest part of the stock motor is the rods. Get the Belfabs. Cheap insurance. Finally, if the rings are shot but the bores are good, just get new rings. The pistons may or may not be hosed but a set of stock pistons are easy enough to come across.

Mark

does anyone make hypereutectic pistons for the miata, from the reading i've done these would bridge the gap between stock cast pistons and fancy loose fitting forged ones.

Yeah, Mazda does. They're OEM stock. :)

Sam, I didn't open the thread you linked, but I assume it concerns cylinder wear and piston slap? I don't think it's really a big deal anymore. However, Mach and Mark do make a good point. OEM pistons, with a ceramic coated dome, and upgraded and moly coated skirts would make nice pistons.

Stocks are hyper :). I had mine cryo trated and ceramic crowns/dry lubed skirts for my "mild" :ugh: nitrous app

oh didn't know that....oops.

what does mitsu use in their 4g63 motors?

Thanks Ben... I love that idea.
Looks like Topline Pistons with the treatment and Toga Rings, plus Belfab Rods and one of the better "rebuild" kits is what I want.

I'll have my shop get the block ready and see if they can't source the kit plus ARP main/head bolts.

That stuff plus a head rebuild and I'll be set.

Pistons: $136
Coating: $100
Rings: $109
Belfab Rods: $315 (via eBay)
Rebuild Kits: $250-$400 (depending on level, but the Topline rebuild kits also seem to include pistons and rings... more research needed).
ARP Head/Main studs: $130/$100
New Valvetrain: $200 (can't find one anywhere, but the FM one is $388, so figuring halfprice of that is more likely.

So, depending on whether the Pistons/Rings I want are included in the rebuild kit, I'm sitting at about $1200 in parts.

How much is the block work going to cost. Shawn said the head rebuild should be about $200 in labor... so another few hundred for the block work and a few more if I wanted them to do the rebuild?

Bottom line is I'm into this thing for around $1800 with a little slop included? Does that sound right?

+1

Though new to the turbo end of the Miata world, word from Corky is that in his experience, the rods are the weak link as far as engine internals go.

Additionally, if budget allows, valves and port matching is money well spent.

- L

I don't think that OS valves are warranted at 200 hp. Not that they'd hurt, but on a budget build of this magnatude, I'd leave them out in favor of putting the $ elsewhere. Reason being, OS valves make a % difference, and on low power they don't do too much. On a 300+ hp motor, I'd agree with ya.

Sam, I think you're on the right track, but I don't think you've got enough $ in the pot to cover everything. I'd be REALLY suprised if you got out that cheap. What are you estimating for machine labor? I think you'll be in it for a 4 digit number, the first number being a 2, and the second number being between 1 and 5 depending on what's up with your head. I also think you should check into adjustable cam gears, as there will never be a better time to put them in.

I hate to threadjack, but oversized pistons vs stock...I'll need to do a rebuild soon I think...and wont both require the block to be bored anyway?

If I was wanting ~250...which isn't far off from sam's goal...are the larger pistons needed or just highly recommended?

Assuming I needed to replace some burnt valves...I didn't see an answer to sam's question about oversized valves. (cost difference on something different in the head vs replacing stock stuff)

This mirrors my research exactly. I had a thread over at M.net discussing the true costs of motor building, and $1700-$2k seemed to be the concensus with CAT rods and Weiscos, and nothing else except a basic hone and block machine job.

I was figuring on around $400 for the work on the block and the shop actually doing the re-assembly... and another $200 for headwork. So I thought around $600 total for labor. Is that reasonable?

But I am really confused about what exactly is included in the "rebuild" kits as far as the quality of the product. I'm gonna have to makes some phone calls tomorrow. We'll use the Topline kits as an example.
The kit comes with pistons... but I've budgeted an extra $136 for pistons. The kit also comes with rings, but I assume the $109 for the Toga pistons are in addition to the kit price.

The RPMMachine website quotes a longblock for $1120 and I'll guess $200 for shipping. I need to see if the quality of parts in their stock longblocks are good enough. But if I can have them build a motor with the better rings, have them coat the pistons, and install better rods for less than I can have it done locally, then I've got more thinking to do.

And the valvetrain will remain stock.

screw the rebuild kit, headwork & arp studs.

pull the pistons, get the block honed. slap your new guys in, reuse all your old componets and your new headgasket. call it a day :) get that shit running again!

...says the guy who's had a half dozen motors in his car.

He's got a running motor, and a busted motor. Sam, throw in the running motor and put $200/month away to build the bad one up. That's pretty much what I've been doing on my motor build project: going forward at around 1 item per month, or jumping when a good deal hits.

Damn you both!!! It's like trying to choose which side of the Force I want to be on.

Those who got the CAT (belfab, 949) rods, what did you do about bearings? Do they come with bearings or do you reuse your old ones or do you source from third party? I really would be against reusing my old ones...what do new bearings run and which to get?
I've been following this thread closely and didnt want to crap on it, but this sort of interests me since i'm seriously considering to go ahead and get these rods already for my motor build.

Quote of the day....lol. Same position man...only you have a turbo and I don't :td:

Oops, already asked and answered. Sam good luck man!

Mark

are rings and ringlands going out as fast as honda's?...i know that the rods are weak but what about guys with 323 gtx rods?...what about piston coats?...do they last?...just various questions for mild oem builds!!!

Rods: $300 shipped. How can you say no?

+1 on doing this. I am doing the same as Ben, but he keeps beating me to all the deals. :)

I'm doing the same thing, just got a cheap ass block back together so I can do something with the spare one sitting on my garage floor. However, I'll still cheap out and use belfab rods and "oem" pistons with a .20" overbore :)

I'm going with the cheap rods and some JE forged overbore pistons. I'll probably have the pistons ceramic coated. The JE's don't cost much more than oe pistons + rings, and will hold up better in the event of any nasty detonation.

And Tom, I gaurantee you I won't be buying anything else for a good long while. So have at it... :bigtu:

The problems associated with forged pistons come from 2618 (more expansion) metal and poor machining. I went with 4130 alloy on my father's recommendation from experience with forged motors all his life. It expands less, and is only marginally less strong. Its all about the machine work, so find the best machinist on the planet. I'm using John Day in Dallas, TX. I have his # if you want it. I'm spending only $1200 for the full bottom end job and cleaning up the head. It may be worth the shipping cost since that seems remarkably cheap and his quality is respected nationwide in the SM class. However I didn't select him because of FM fame. He's built a handful of turbo track miatas which run for years and years and years.

hustler, $1200 seems very cheap...way to go
but what consists of a full bottom end job, just labor i assume, but what all will he do, are you boring the block or just honing, are you balancing the crank, or are you shaving the crank any? let me know, i might as well use the same guy cause thats very reasonable...thanks

It looks like I'll be scoring a set of Bens' rods... so first purchase complete!

I will hopefully be able to drop by Magnum Machine down in Chesapeake after work today. We'll see what it's gonna cost for the things I need done... and what kind of parts sources he's got. A good machine shop should have their own connection for coatings and what not.

RPMMachine phone message says they're out until Jan 2nd, so I can't learn what quality of parts comes in their Topline rebuild kits.

I'm borrowing a friends engine hoist and will pull the motor out tonight or tomorrow. The 200k mile motor is mine Sat morning... should have that installed and running early afternoon.

Anyone thought about ceramic coated cast pistons? This might add a ton of strength...and maybe I should have saved my money.

I'm fairly certain the Toplines I'm looking at are cast... definitely going to get them coated.

Self-Threadjack in Progress:
Here's the clutchnet page of all Miata discs: http://www.clutchnet.com/search.php?mode=search
I'm looking at the 6-pucks to replace my crap Spec StgII kevlar disc. I see sprung-hub and solid-hub. The writeup for the solid hub indicates it's better suited to slipping (nice for turbo's) and is $50 cheaper... although it also indicates for race-use only. What's the tradeoff for solid/sprung?

yeah the toplines are cast. huge manufacturer of oem stuff like headgaskets.


get sprung if you want to save your tranny and diff :)

+1 on sprung, search for my clutchnet thread...it explains all (i hope)

now, can someone help me with the question i asked about the bearings, i still have no answer....please help

Sprung is a lot smoother. I've heard unsprung is an actual on-off switch, vs. sprung just acting like an on-off switch, although I could be wrong. :)

Either way, you can't go abusing shit with a 6-puck clutch. I may be the lowest horsepower turbo guy to lose a transmission (219whp).

I have both, daily driver with ACT extreme and sprung disc and race car with 4 puck unsprung.
Unsprung is for race use and doesn't leave one wondering when to go, car lurches forwards when clutch is lifted. Too violent for comfort in stop and go traffic, doable but not enjoyable.
Sprung takes the edge off as well as some of the precision and maybe ever so slight difference in time.

hrk

I just got a quote from a respectable machinest here in hawaii and it'll cost me only $600 to do all the cleaning and machine work for my block!! This includes cleaning of the block, boring the block to fit oversize pistons, honing, line boring of the block after putting in ARP main studs, Balance and blueprint the rotating assembly.

You guys thing this is a good deal?

Oh and to rebuild the head with a 3 angle valve job it'll be another $500.

The machine work sounds reasonable. I assume it is assuming you do the assembly.

I've seen reman heads for $350 + core.

http://www.cylinder-heads.com/details.cfm?itemid=1409 and the return shipping is included in the $350. You have 30 days to return your head after shipping the new one to you and the core. Plus no problem with bad cores being rejected. from their website:


"All heads purchased are sold plus freight. F.O.B. Clearwater, FL. CCH will provide ARS label for the return of your core. A prepaid return-shipping label is included with your order to return your core at no cost. We accept your core whether it’s cracked, disassembled, etc. All we require is that it is complete. Orders are shipped UPS Ground."

I just paid a visit to "my" machine shop.

The labor on the head is $250 which includes unshrouding the valves. Parts are extra, but he said it's rare that a head will need anything if it's been well maintained... and all the seals/etc will be included in an engine rebuild kit.

Tanking/cleaning/honing the block, and polishing the crank is $150.

It'll be approx another $400 to rebuild the motor completely.

He showed me the book they usually buy their import OEM "rebuild" kits from and it included everything that I expected... basically everything except the block/head/valvetrain/rods/crankshaft. Pistons, rings, all seals, spacers, bearings, gaskets, etc, are included... and it was $300. The book also showed various upgrades available for the OEM parts.

It's pretty much exactly what I expected.

Rods: $320
Rebuild Kit: $300 + upgrades of $150= $450
Tri-Coat pistons: $100
Labor: $800

Total of: $1700... a little slop= $1800total.

It'll probably be a little more in the end, and I do need a new clutch disc... so the consensus of $2000 for a mild build is accurate.

Are you missing anything:
Water pump?
Oil pump?
Metal headgasket?
ARP main and head studs?
Intake mani gasket?
Clean up and port match intake mani to head?
All those little bitch ass water hoses?
motor mounts?
I don't know what kind of oil/water lines you have for your turbo, but if not braided steel you might need to replace them
Cam gears? (optional but recommended)
Plaque that says "built for samnavy" riveted to cam cover? (not optional, $2000)

I'm glad you're thinking:

I'm good on the water/oil hoses.
Motor mounts are new.
Intake mani gasket will come with the kit.

Water pump, oil pump I will investigate
ARP shit I'm on the fence again... it's $200 for those.
Metal HG... needed?
Cam gears... I'll start looking for a used set.
Port matching... can I do that with a Dremel?

A plaque is nice... but I want a gold one.

Definitely get the ARP hardware.
You could live without the metal HG, but it's nice. I would get it.
Yes, you should be able to clean up the intake mani yourself.

FM has a stock height metal HG, which is .050 I think.

My machinest told me that when you change the main studs you should get a line bore. Apparently when you torque down the main studs you distort the area where the crank bearings rest. Its supposed to make the clearences off. Is this BS or not?

I have a set of ETD Racing Rods for sale in the classifieds. Brand new - $365 shipped!

the place off military behind the volvo dealership?
If so, good dudes back there :)

Any updates? How's the machine work going?