Problem Found! New Block, New Concerns, Please Read Page 4
 

I just got my injectors back from Injector Rehab (who are great people btw!) and installed them tonight. Did everything by the book there, got everything hooked up and reinstalled the way it was before. Needless to say, the car ran fine before I took the injectors out.

In any case, my roommate comes out to start the car for me so I can stand at the passenger side fender and keep an eye on the area around the injectors to make sure everything is ok. He engages the starter and before the engine even has a chance to start turning over there is an awful crack/pop sound. (It startled the shit out of me, so I honestly can't say where it came from, but I think it was towards the rear of the engine.)

After some consultation with Stealth97, I tried turning the crank by hand, I could get it to turn smoothly and then it would reach a point where it would stop and not go any further, no matter how much force was applied. It could spin back around the other way but would then reach a similar stopping point.
Then he suggested testing for hydrolock, and I found that there was fuel on the cyl. #1 plug, but not on any of the others. So leaving the plugs out, and disconnecting the CAS, I attempted to turn the engine over. I engaged the starter and it sounded like it was moving freely for a split second, and then reached that stopping point, and would not spin anymore. And now the crank will not turn at all in either direction by hand. Hitting the starter only results in what I can only describe as the starter trying to turn, but just not being able to at all.

So, what's the problem here?
We thought that there might be something bound up in the transmission, or worst case scenario, I bent the fuck out of a rod (I'm hoping not of course). I can't get under the car here, too low and I'm on a gravel driveway, so the earliest I can tow my car to the shop at work is this weekend.

can u bend a rod with a starter??? i dont think so, but im just guessing?

I don't honestly think so, but with my luck lately, I'm not ruling it out. The fact that the crank will not turn at all now has me worried about it. But I'm really threw that out there just to get people's minds going with what could be wrong.

Weird, I was going to say if you tried turning it by hand with the plugs in it could be difficult but the whole thing freezing up is bizarre. Nothing fell in the combustion chamber?

No, I sealed it off when I took the injectors out, and the spark plugs are intact.
And the engine does have oil in it too. Meant to have that info in there as well.

sounds like a broken starter. possibly a broken tooth. stock flywheel?

OEM starter, FM flywheel.
I considered the starter being the issue until I got it to start turning over like it normally did, up until the point it just stopped. Now that everything is completely stuck, I don't know. In any case, it's going to be the starting point of my investigation when I get the car up on a rack.

Pull starter first and inspect all teeth.
If it looks good, check the teeth on the FM fw and try turning motor by hand now.

just to confirm, you turned it by hand with ALL the spark plugs out, right?

No, not the first time. After that, yes, and it was still doing the same thing. Why?

My friend broke a gear in the gearbox on an old Opel once, which locked up the tranny and the engine. He could turn his engine if he pressed down the clutch, but not if he just left it in neutral. A quick thing to test...

If a cylinder were filled with fuel, and the spark plugs were in, that would explain why you couldn't turn it over by hand. With them out, the fuel would have an escape route. You probably knicked an o-ring when installing the injector. It's odd that you still can't crank it, I'd don't see the starter being able to bend a rod.

C

Yeah, i would try to turn it over by hand with the clutch in.

Tried with the clutch in last night. No effect. Still completely stuck.

Even with plugs in, it would turn by hand. However, it would reach that stopping point, and the same thing happened with the plugs out. However, it never made a full revolution anyway. I'm sure nothing went wrong with the injector install, I spent a lot of time and attention to make 110% sure.

I think it is something with the starter/flywheel engagement. It is just a wierd coincidence that it happened right after an injector install. Pull your starter and check the teeth as others have stated. If it wont turn with the starter off and the clutch pushed in, your f'ed.

I agree with Brian, but first do pull the plugs and inspect for fuel in the cylinders. Probably a starter issue though.

Judging from the "crack/pop sound" thing, I agree it's the starter or flywheel. You sheared a tooth, and it's jammed in there. Hope it's just the starter, as that should be easier to replace.

Pop crack and sizzle sounds like an electrical issue.... then no starter movement, I would follow that route too.
Goodluck

Already did that as mentioned in the first post. Cyl #1 definitely had a lot of fuel in it. The spark plug was covered in fuel. The rest were dry. Hoping for a starter issue though.

Me too. Thanks.

No sizzle ever mentioned. Everything electrical is fine. No popped fuses, etc. The starter is trying to turn the flywheel, but for some reason cannot. The pop/crack sound was definitely metallic.

Well, just to ease my mind, I put an optic scope down each of the spark plug holes tonight. Everything inside each cylinder looked normal, nothing on top of the pistons except some carbon, and no sign of any problems or any pieces of anything.
So the next step is getting my buddy's car trailer and taking the car up to work tomorrow to get it on a lift and get the starter off.

Something in the clutch/flywheel area... Sounds almost exactly like what happened when I fubared my clutch install awhile back.

Sounds like a starter pin.....if you get a jack handle and a hammer and give the starter a few good taps to see if pin will disengage. This will allow you turn the motor over by hand and see if any "real" damage lies elsewhere.

wtf, suddenly the dallas crew is exploding on here.

For an update, one of the master techs I trust here at Honda and Brian/wildfire (thanks for coming out man!) helped me out today. We got the crank turning again once we got it in the air to get some leverage on it, but it still gets stuck. It actually only makes about a 350* spin either way you go. Cyl #2 and #3 almost make it to TDC, but the stop is hard and sudden.
Got the starter off, issue remains, and starter looks fine. Driveshaft spins freely, so shouldn't be an output shaft issue. So we slid the transmission back to disengage the input shaft, tried to spin the crank again with no change. Everything about the FM flywheel and the ACT clutch look great, no bolts backed out or missing. There is a seal seeping somewhere, but no big deal.
We cut the timing belt to turn the cams to make sure that the valves were still ok, and that checked out. My new timing stuff is on the way, so didn't care about the belt. The tech and I used a different borescope and looked around during all that and agreed that everything looked good.

So I guess the next step is to take the engine out and start taking it apart... This makes no damn sense at all.

I'm calling hydrolock and a VERY strong starter.

C

What do you mean?
The starter is off, it now has nothing to do with the crank not making a full revolution. I don't even know why you think hydrolock, the plugs are out and the insides of the cylinders are dry...

I think that he's implying that you hydrolocked the motor with fuel and the starter the first time you cranked it (cylinder flooded, and starter bent eh rod while cranking possibly) but I doubt this is the case, not sure what it COULD be, but i seriously doubt you bent a rod with the starter.

This has to be a bent rod, but how?

Did the motor turn over several times and then stopped turning over, then you pulled out the plugs and tried again with same results, or was it still turning over completely with the plugs out?

Oh, I see now.
I agree with your doubt.

Almost certain it's not a bent rod. Right after we got the crank free again today, we had small, equal-length dowels sticking up out of the plug holes while we rotated the crank. Not exactly scientific, but the movement seemed right on. Cyl 2 and 3 are not quite reaching their highest point, and 1 and 4 of course are not reaching their bottom-most position.

When I went to start the engine after reinstalling the injectors, the engine never turned over once. As soon as the starter engaged, the loud noise occured. That's when I found that with plugs in or out, the crank will only make approximately a 350* circle, and then be suddenly stopped. That point cannot be passed. It's not like the normal turn, turn, turn, resistance because of compression, pass resistance, turn, turn, turn. It's turn, turn, turn, STOP!!! No matter which way you go.

I'm actually wondering if maybe one of the rod bolts has backed out some on either rod 1 or 4 and is getting caught on something (as highly unlikely as that is). Only reason I say that is because when the crank movement is stopped, it's sudden, and the resulting clunk almost sounds metal to metal. And that might explain the ~10* lack of rotation in the crank.

So are you tearing the motor down now then?

Yes. You I mean HE did say one of the plugs was wet.

I'd be surprised that you I mean HE could bend a rod with the starter as well, but your (HIS) symptoms are pointing to a bent rod. I had a similar scenario after an SR20 engine swap. The guy I was doing the swap for, took the fuel rail home to paint it, and he installed the injectors in the rail without any lube (Vaseline works great BTW). When we went to crank the car over, the engine locked up because he fubar'd one of the bottom injector seals. Cranking it over by hand was exactly as you describe.... everything was great, I could rotate the engine nice and smooth up to a point, then it'd lock up hard. Pulling the plugs revealed a swimming pool in one of the cylinders. I fixed the o-rings, blew out the cylinders with compressed air, and we went on our merry way with no permanent damage.

C

Just for the record, not my car and you quoted me...but everything you said could fit with what the OP said to, just want to make sure noone gets confused.

Yeah. Monday I have to get permission from the Service Manager to occupy a stall and an engine stand. I'm going to start by pulling the motor out and taking off the oil pan and seeing if I can figure something out. I'm almost certain now that the issue lies at the bottom. I'm hoping to avoid a complete teardown though, but I will definitely do it if I have to. If I do, I guess I'll be devoting some of my savings account to a forged build. Might as well.

I think that's only because the injector sprayed fuel during the attempted startup and of course was never ignited. Because the plug was wet, but that was it. Nothing inside the cylinder to point to it getting flooded with fuel. And definitely nothing came out when I turned the crank to test for hydrolock.


Well, the injectors and the seals were properly lubed and installed, I took a lot of care to ensure that was done carefully and correctly.
But I really wish now that your scenario was my case! This is a real headache.

Fixed

C

Hrmm. Did you happen to take a whif of the dipstick to check for fuel in the oil?

C

I already asked him to check that. he said no fuel in the oil. When I first spoke to rotornut I suspected hydrolock, we ruled that out because the engine would still not turn over with the plugs out. I also suspected the accessories, but he only runs a alt/wp. when the starter was rulled out, my next thought was that the ring gear slipped off the aluminum FW and contacted the block or oil pan stopping the engine, but the transmission was pulled and inspected. I have not seen this problem myself, but after everything we went over on the phone, I dont see how this problem could not be internal.

The engine could have bent a rod due to hydrolock on the first startup attempt. Seems unlikeley but I cant think of anything else to explain it.

I'm probably not really on to anything here...but have you taken the injectors back out and made sure they are all 100% intact?

No. Because there was no evidence of anything entering the cylinders. I will be taking them out on Monday though. I hope they're intact though, because then I'll probably be replacing a turbo too...

I can't see how any FOD made it from the engine to the turbo.
And I'm still not sold on hydrolock resulting in bent rod. Complete coincidence makes more sense, unless the rod was already det damaged, cracked, weakened and about to shrapnel anyway.

Didn't you just sell your forged rods?

PS, you should be sleeping at 5am on a sunday

FOD - Foreign Object Damage?
IDK how a rod would be bent either.

Yes, I just did sell the forged rods.

PS - I couldn't sleep for a bit, so I got online.

Riddle me this. How could a bad injector o-ring flood the engine? Only a stuck open injector would be able to flood the engine, a bad o-ring would cause fuel to leak out the fuel rail once the fuel pump is on.

Truth....with my old 1.6, i got my 1.8's in the mail while i ws leaving the house one day..got about 20 minutes from the house and looked down i had 1/4 tank...not a big deal then I thought about it nd i had almost a full tank when i left the house because i filled up the night before. Two o-rings had gone bad on the 1.6 injectors and there was fuel COVERING the engine bay, talk about good timing for the 1.8's to come in the mail!! This story ended with an injector swap on the side of a back road.

I guess I was pretty lucky, could have been MUCH worse, I mean imagine if gas was 4 bucks a gallon instead of 2.XX then!

Truth be told, I'm almost certain my issue has nothing to do with the injectors or their installation...

truth be told I don't think so either.

I am still thinking something broke and is either catching at the bottom of Cyl 1 or 4 or something is getting caught on the crank.

It rotates perfectly smooth until you hit that "wall". I still wonder if something like an oil ring broke, or maybe a rod bolt did come lose. Like I said Saturday, drop the oil pan first and see if anything falls out. I have a feeling that as soon as the oil pan comes off the answer will be found.

BTW, it was no problem helping you out. I am just glad my girl or my roommate didn't have a problem hanging around the shop. Also I will get the photos cleaned up and send you a link to them.

TADA!!!!
Attachment 212310
Congrats to you guys calling a bent rod. I really just did not want that to be the case. Fortunately, the crank is not scarred in the least. What was causing the stop was the crank contacting the bottom of the piston where the wrist pin goes through:
Attachment 212311


Cylinder #1...

OK, so things I need to know to to get moving in the right direction here:

1. How can you test injectors to make sure they are not stuck open? I'm praying that the rod was already about to go, and just bit the dust when the car was being started. But with the evidence of fuel on the plug, I'm not so sure, but thinking that may have just been what made it in the cylinder from the start up sequence. And there was NO pooled fuel inside the cylinder to indicate hydrolock (if it hadn't evaporated off of the plug that soon, there'd be evidence in the cylinder), so it's confusing. I'm just hoping the injectors or their servicing did not cause this problem. So thus the test.

2. For the ATL guys, anyone know any reputable machining shops? Going to go ahead and install forged pistons and rods. Need to get the work done though. No serious power build, but figure that since the engine is apart, might as well toughen it up.

Overall not a good day.

That sucks fucking dick. Glad the mystery is over though.

Makes it even worse that you just sold a set of rods....good luck with the rebuild. Must be one beast of starter....EBay that bitch with the story, you might makae some money :giggle:

Miata injectors are open on ground. So if you installed the injectors and pinched a wire under the bolt by the rail, the injectors would stay open as you cranked it over. Check your injector wiring and make sure none of them got caught under the bolt that holds the injector harness to the head. There is a bracket in that area that you usually loosen to remove the injector clips.

I don't know this because I'm a brilliant motherfucker. I know this because I hydrolocked a motor in my '90 when I reinstalled it.

Frank

KPLAFIN - Why would I want to even think about selling the starter? It's a keeper!!!

fmowry - No good, but I guess you have to learn some things from experience.
However, I did check the wiring post-install just to make sure nothing was caught, kinked, or otherwise. I checked, double-checked, and triple-checked everything I touched or moved. (And my roommate was getting impatient and calling me OCD about it. lol)

You are OCD about it, but I also didn't see any damaged area to the injector wiring, and when you where trying to remove the wiring harness for the injectors they each seem to be moving freely. I would just double check the wires but I am sure they were clear.

Again man it sucks what happen, but it was still fun to pulling your motor out.

Oh you need to post the photos of the best way to install the Bell Downpipe :giggle:

Are you doing your own tear down and build up, or do you need a shop to do it all? Will's Machine Shop does good work if you just need the machine work. If you need disassembly and reassembly, (I'm probably biased here) I'd recommend my dad's shop in lawrenceville. He usually builds high power n/a 8 cylinders, but I'll have him cut you a deal if you want.

Ben

Rotornut check out these guys

http://www.chastainraceengines.com

They built my engine and did a great job. They Quoted me $1500 but I ended up spending a little over $1k. I brought them the engine disassembled, along with all my own parts, the block was cleaned, bored, and decked, the head was rebuild with multi angle valve job and oversized intake valves, decked head, fully balanced, etc. They also assembled the engine to the timing belt.


EDIT- looks like their website is down right now.

Thanks Ben and Justin!
To answer your question Ben, I want to do the work myself, but would need a shop to make sure that the cylinders are properly bored (probably going with either a .010 or .020 over piston) and that the crank is in good shape, balanced, etc., and that when everything goes together it all will fit properly. Realistically, I'd love a place where I can learn to do the building work with an experienced eye and hand ready to help out if needed. However, that may prove hard to find...
That being the case, I don't want to screw anything up, so maybe having someone experienced just do the work may be the easier route to go since I haven't built an engine alone before. But all the parts of course will be supplied.
And this may sound dumb, but I really think I'm going to end up leaving the head alone for now. I'm trying to forge the internals on a strict budget at the moment.

wow that sucked. makes sense though, albiet an odd time to happen...

Wow, never would have forseen that. But now you have the perfect excuse for that bottom end rebuild.

Yep! Except I'm not liking the price tag right now. lol

In any case, I'm strongly considering a MSM short block at the moment. I would prefer to get that in there just to get the car going for now, and build my current block on my time schedule and budget. And when I have the built block ready, I can toss over the nice support plate.
Rumor also has it that those engines have a dedicated spot to get coolant to the turbo and the pan is already tapped for oil return. I'm liking that. Just hoping that it will be a pretty uncomplicated swap into my car.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...69&postcount=7
which makes me wonder how much more power could the MSM make with a 99-00 style intake manifold.

I just unwrapped and lifted a MSM block to study it. Pretty neat thing really. For coolant flow, they tapped a water jacket on one end, and it goes to a "Y" in the mixing manifold pipe on the other. Oil supply has a fitting just like the earlier cars. Oil return has a flanged fitting right below the turbo in the pan. The cold side of the pan has another flanged oil return fitting for the catch can. Good stuff.

That or, you could have dropped something down in the head when changing the injectors. I did this once on my mustang. A (very) tiny screw fell down in the injector hole and logded between a valve. I didn't know at first. After I pulled the head I found the srew. I've also seen started break a tooth and lodge between the flywheel and cause a similar problem. I'd probably pull the injectors back out first to make sure something did not fall off it, like the pintle or plastic cap.

Dude you like 20 steps behind us, we had to pull his motor apart cause the head was fine, the tranny was fine, the flywheel was fine.

Look up a few post and you will see a lovely picture of his motor, with a nice bent rod. That was a bad sight to see at 9pm after busting are a$$es to get his motor out.