Supercharger Discussion Forum
 

I have a question about the caption Supercharger Discussion Forum, specifically the caption which is attached to it "For all you misguided souls". I understand this is miataTURBO.net but why is even the owner of this forum against superchargers?

I don't want this argument to be about which makes more power as such (this is not in that section of the forum for a reason) But I want this to be about is this Turbo is better supercharger attitude all up to personal opinion or is there more to it? I have owned a turbo car before (R32 Skyline) and I have driven a few turbo MX5's (na6+turbo, SE [aus version of Mazdaspeed], NB2 + Turbo), and I have not enjoyed driving either of them. Yes they had more power but won't a supercharger make similar power/$ + better throttle response (which IMO I feel would suit this chassis better) ?

It's not that I hate turbo's I loved my Skyline but wouldn't a supercharger just suit this chassis better?

I ask as I have a NB2 i want to put a kraftwerks kit on but it seems like no one likes superchargers and I am wondering if I am missing something?

That's because you're in Australia, your turbochargers spin the wrong way.

throttle response lmao

To let ride, or to lock, that is the question.
Let's see if this idiotic thread delivers the lulz.

Nitrodann alt-account please go

OP doesnt understand what throttle response is.

Okay that answers a lot of my questions as to why everyone prefers turbo. I do too to be honest, I love the flutter I just have been let down by all the turbo mx5's i've driven. although that powerband being linear does look appealing to me already. Maybe it's time to go and look at some properly set up cars of both turbo and super and see which is actually better for what I want it to do

LOL Graph is too small

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1431656776

TNTUBA and Mobius in here? Prepare yourself for the supercharger circlejerk

HAY GUIS WAIT FOR ME TOO

http://www.akilla.net/pics/miata/miatadyno_20140302.jpg

FAPFAPFAPFAPFAFPAFAP

(P.S. superchargers rock)

Hahahahhaha!!!!

That's awesome.

So much so that yours is for sale. trololo

No, I took it apart and built a Lotus instead. With a supercharger!

Well I do. I've driven a miata with a medium sized turbo (GT3271) and a big turbo (EFR 7670). And now a miata with a big SC (1.6L pulley'd 2:1) at 20 PSI.

In order of power production, based on seat of the pants/no dyno:

1st: EFR (17 PSI) (landslide victory, lot of power)
2nd: GT3271 (28 PSI) (maybe 350whp, midrange torque was nuts)
3rd: Supercharger (20 PSI) (maybe 350whp, no midrange torque like a turbo though)

That said, from 0-30mph, SC car is wayyy faster. 0-60, SC car is a bit faster. 0-80, GT3271 would probably pass the SC car around 80-90mph mark. After 100 the EFR would fly by both spinning the rear tires in 4th.

SC's are different, it really just drives like a big NA motor. Probably like having a stock LS1 if I reved to 8K to make 400hp, that's what a hot SC motor drives like. It's fun, and it can be powerful.

But turbo motors are easier and cheaper to setup, and that's a big benefit for the turbo. I've done DIY turbo setups and now a DIY SC setup. DIY SC is probably 5x more work! But for me to compare a ~350whp turbo miata to ~350whp SC miata, I'd take the SC no doubt, it's wayyy more fun/responsive, and anyone that things response is a joke, they've never driven a nasty SC'd engine. In 1st gear when you smash the pedal to the floor, the front suspension is fully unloaded before your foot hits the firewall. Turbo motor is at about 106kPa in comparison.

I'm waiting for you to dyno yours and take it to the quarter so I can compare to my z06 :party:

You got it! I got the longblock assembled finally! Now the details/final bits, and a new tensioner. Hope to have it running again to begin breaking in the new motor in a couple days.

Nice! Can't wait to see your numbers, Pat. Excited for more people with SCs. :)

Still haven't sold my SC kit. Maybe I'll just throw it on a bone stock 99 with a cracked softtop so I can spin tires through 3rd gear from a roll on my way to work.

Thanks! Maybe I can get your email and ask you some questions on how to fix my belt slip issues. I can only get 20 PSI right now, after 20 it slips. For good numbers to impress people on internet I need the belt slip to go away. (and to make the car fast/not destroy the belt)

PM'd email. For belt slip, really depends on how you're tensioning the belt. Are you using an autotensioner of some sort (preferably the GM-style high-torque ones), at least a 6 rib belt, and getting at least 180 degrees of wrap around the pulley? I haven't seen pics of your setup. I never had any issues with belt slip whatsoever and I was pushing 21psi at redline at the end on the 1.6L whipple/lysholm (making a fair bit more power than my dyno above, but never took it to the dyno to get actual numbers, just kept timing the same on E85 and got the fueling right -- what could go wrong!?)

I emailed you. But for the curious, I currently have a manual tensioner, but am switching to an autotensioner setup to see if that improves the belt slip. Yes I have a 6 rib, and I have 270 degrees of belt wrap on SC pulley.

I'll repeat what I emailed you on here for others to see -- an autotensioner is huge with a supercharger. With the amount of torque that the SC is eating, it stretches the belt way beyond what you'd think is possible. My autotensioner moves through a couple inches of range during a dyno pull. When sitting at rest, you can barely deflect the belt by hand it's so tensioned. To then watch it move multiple inches under load is mindboggling.

Unless it's heavily modded OR a C7......you got nothing :)

So I wrote up a huge response going into detail of everything but when I went to post it, it disappeared :(
In short:
Thanks for the discussion it was exactly what I was looking for it's given me idea's ill research into.

The linear powerband looks more appealing to me as the mountain roads in my area are very tight and technical so having a turbo up there is just always sideways (that is the reason I sold the skyline) I plan on keeping the miata resonably dailyable and reliable and keeping the bottom end stock, for now atleast. The end game is just how much I can get out of the Stock bottom end which I *believe* is 200-250hp. So considering the above should I go with the C30-74 or C30-94? (I want the Kraftwerks kit) I will be keeping the car N/A for as long as possible getting ready for boost, so it'll be running E85, cams, standalone ECU (Haltech or Adaptronic) and the other basic goodies.

Isn't the C30-74 good for like 300 hp? I think that should be more than enough to wreck your stock bottom end. Also, you should wait for the Jackson Racing or TDR kit.

I thought I read that past 7200rpm on a 10 psi (I think it was 10psi) pulley it would overspin the shaft, Please correct me if that is wrong!

Yeah I don't plan to put the supercharger on for a while, this is all probably a year or so away so I can hold-off, what will be better about the Jackson Racing and TDR kit? Kraftwerks kit has been around for a while now and is proven to work?

Should be a better overall design and certain configurations will be carb approved. The main benefit in my eyes will be that you get jackson racing product support which from what I understand blows kraftwerks customer support out of the water.

Jackson racing has been co-developing their kit with Emilio (949 racing) on this forum so you know it will work as intended under hard use without any problems or needed modifications.

74 won't hurt the bottom end. 94 would require some boost trim but you'd have room to grow.

I believe you are correct on this one, I was thinking that C30-74 was capable of higher boost at redline. It seems the larger unit would be required if you want to maximize power within the limits of the stock internals.

I'm torn between this debate as well. At least I have a year to figure it out when my built engine will finally be ready. By then the jackson Racing SC kits should be on the road and hopefully the trackspeed efr and more of the fab9 efr kits as well.

I really should have just went K24 rather than building a BP but oh well.

Unless you post up actual dyno plots, you got nothing too, right? :)
(so post up the dyno plots ;) )

Never gonna happen.

But I'll race you however you want to race (don't race dyno plots anyway). 1/8th, 1/4, 40-140 roll, autocross, time attack....you pick.....just bring a pocket full of money ;)

Why so serious? :laugh:

I would love a 40-160 race though.

I'd need to change rear ends....and take the wing off......but that could happen ;)

LOL.

With the stock crank pulley (130mm IIRC) you can run a 75mm pulley producing 12psi peak at 7200RPM. At this point you are also redlining the C30-74 but not over spinning.

On my set up, I'm running a 85mm pulley and seeing 9.5psi at 7100RPM and the blower is well under it's redline.

that sounds good. I think I saw somewhere that if I were to run a 94 it would actually have less power in the bottom of the power band than the 74 (I need to try find this graph again so i can confirm what i saw). If I were to get a 94 and then bleed the excessive boost off would it essentially build all the boost then power "taper" off when it reaches full boost till redline?

The 94 should be moving more air at all speeds, period, so you should have more lower end and a faster rise to peak boost compared to a 74. I'm not sure what dyno plot you're thinking of that shows differently.

Essentially, what you describe, yes. There are a couple of ways to bleed the boost - put a wastegate onto the intake manifold, or put a blowoff valve into your piping somewhere.

Hopefully I should be able to keep to the 74 then so the powerband stays linear. I read on TDR's website they estimate their supercharger kit for the NB2 (VVT) should make 200HP on 10psi,(i'm assuming this is on a fairly stock setup) I plan on doing cams (and probably valve springs because I want fairly big cams), full exhaust, Haltech/Adaptronic and E85 before I put the supercharger on so i should be able to make ~230HP which is plenty for an mx5 I plan to drive the hell out of

Why not save the money on the cams and just put the bigger blower on it? Stock cams are reasonably aggressive already, they won't be holding you back. Just add moar boost.

Just to toss this out there on the original subject.....

The real issue is that you have serious shit to handle on these drivelines before 300WHP, which is sort of sad compared to most other platforms.

So most people basically want the most power before hitting diminishing returns on their $$. And like most platforms, that means the most power on stock bottom end and transmission. Which is low 200s ish WHP on these. Or at least that the conventional wisdom. Frankly I think that's pessimistic, but since I'm not exactly pushing the envelope over here I cant talk trash about it.

So if you are going for low 200s WHP, what's the most economical way to get there?

DIY-esque Turbo. This is not really debatable.

And while throttle response is cool no doubt, consider the absolute shit TQ curves of many cars that are hailed as 'drivers cars' of whatthefuckever the hard parker magazine term is now. The Toyobarus are great fun, I have driven one many times. Its just plain entertaining. It also has a TQ band that looks like a drunk with a twitch drew it on the dyno chart. Doesn't seem to ruin the experience for people. I like driving it.

So, as you sit there with your ~4K car and you want more power, how inclined are you to spend 5K on supercharger stuff to hit high 100s WHP with most off the shelf solutions when you could spend the same or possibly/likely much less for low 200s WHP, in a car that will be even more incredibly fun to drive than it is now?

Now if you can get a reliable supercharger setup that has no custom guess work, makes low 200s WHP easily, and does not cost 5K, you have a real competitor. That's not so easy. The JR/949 looks promising. CP's used setup is maddeningly tempting, but that's not a deal you see all that often.. Superchargers are generally a road less traveled with a lot of pot holes in it.

Superchargers can be cool, turbo's can be cool. We always bust each other's chops with smack talk towards the junky supercharer setups, and the guys with cool supercharger setups return the favor in every thread they can by talking smack towards the turbo guys. It goes round and round.
Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's drama, sometimes it's......

Eh. I think the arguments are fairly solid.

Turbo:
* More torque
* Have to wait for spool (Anyone who says they have a no-spool setup gets punched in the junk)
* Cheaper, due to massive proliferation of used kits

Supercharger:
* Less torque
* Get it right now, linear throttle response, just behaves like a bigger motor instead of a turbo motor
* More expensive setups

Anything past that is opinion and dickwaving. Not that there's not a place for that.

Personally, for a daily driver, and for an autocross car, supercharger is absolutely where I'll go, because the drivability and linear throttle response is paramount. For a track/road race car, I'd likely go turbo because it's just easier to get more power out of it, there's less moving parts to break/deal with, and I can set up my gearing to never be out of the turbo's powerband.

You just can't do that on the street/autocross course. Bundy's car is about as close as you can get, with a small turbo, but when you have a 25mph pin turn, that still puts his motor at 2800 rpms in second, which is way out of the powerband. If you downshift to first then you'll light up your tires madly with the ridiculous torque at the wheels and then shift back into second after getting the car pointed the right way again. If he can get spooled coming out of a corner though, he'll have more torque than I would. So, there's lots of places he'll be faster than I will with an SC as well.

The nuance to these discussions are important. You can't just say "turbos are better" or "scs are better". If you want to wave your dyno penis around and only have 2k$ to do it with, go with a turbo. You'll do fine. If you have more nuanced needs, then there's a discussion to be had. Again, on the street, I'll take an SC any day, because you're always in your powerband, and I don't really like the vario-torque of a turbo as much. But you'll never get the silly kick-in-the-nuts as your big turbo spools either, which some people really like. It's really an opinion game for the vast majority of cases.

Anti-lag?

Miataturbo.net circle of life says N/A is best.

At 2800 rpms, there's just not the mass air flow required to spool the turbo. Antilag can't make your engine push more air than it's capable of, it can just make your turbo spool as if you were floored even when you're not. You'll be floored at that 2800 rpms, but nothing real will happen until the motor gets up to 3500-4000. Antilag is much better for things like rally, where the motor is at 5k RPMs and you just want to keep the turbo spooled even when you're off throttle.

I sold my '15 BRZ after 5 weeks because of how un-entertaining the torque curve is. Unless you happen to have curvy roads nearby or on your daily commute, the torque hole in those cars makes them very not fun on the street.

Another option is to run a C15-60. Several guys on m.net did that and they all got right at 200 whp and 150 wtq. Run E85 and I bet that would pick up another 10-15 whp and be super safe and reliable on a stock engine.

Forget this supercharger vs turbo nonsense, kmiata is the new hotness!

Thats definately not true.

You can build unusable amounts of boost with enough fuel, air and ignition retard at 2800rpm.

FTFY

Dann

While I'm intrigued by your response, I'm skeptical. You only use, at absolute best case, about 1/3 of the heat energy of your motor accelerating your pistons. So, the best you can do is recover 80% of that 1/3, which isn't a lot of delta.

if that third gets me down the 1/4 in 11 seconds I reckon it will have no trouble getting the turbine to spin (yes im being facetious I know).

Dann

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about

Aggressive flat shift actually holds my boost at like 170kpa. Too crazy for me, so I dial it to holding like 130 while shifting. I assume antilag can do similar.

My cheap ass chicom turbo will make too much boost at 3100, full spool on wastegate alone is 3800. There is inertia which would be better with a BB or not china turbo, but there is way more than enough airflow to spool down that low.

2800 RPM = 25mph or so on 4.10s