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Old 10-30-2014, 01:10 AM   #1
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Default What roll bar do I have?!?

So I've had a hard dog double diagonal (DD) something in my '93 for years, with a bolt in harness bar. My '01 NB has no bar.

Friend of mine gave me another hard dog DD something in trade for some labor, but with a welded in harness bar.

My plan was to put the one with the welded in bar in the '93, sell the harness bar and roll bar, and buy one compatible with the glass soft top in my NB.

But I was looking at the rear struts of the two bars, and noticed they're different. Is this the difference between a not-compatible-with-NB-soft-top, and a compatible-with-NB-soft-top roll bar?

Hard Dog's site hasn't been updated since I joined the miata community, so 10+ years. They're pictures are small, low resolution, and don't really show uninstalled pictures, which would help me a lot. If I find an uninstalled picture, I'm not confident in the labeling of the picture to trust it.





For those of you that can't understand the picture, the first one basically goes straight into the backing plate at an angle, while the 2nd one bends before hand and goes straight down into the backing plate.
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:36 AM   #2
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My NB double diagonal hard core hardtop looks like your #1 with the straight rear bar. I take it he had someone weld in a harness bar? The HD one is bolt-in.



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Last edited by midpack; 10-30-2014 at 01:48 AM. Reason: added pictures
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Old 10-30-2014, 02:24 AM   #3
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For NBs, HD hard cores have straight rear bars at a steeper angle than the NA ones. This is to clear the glass window. NB hard core bars do not have welded-in harness bars for the same reason (they may have harness bolt tabs). There are bolt-in harness bars that work on NBs.

NB HD sport bars have rear legs that start at the same angle as the NA ones, but are bent at the bottom to provide the same clearance for the glass window. They look like this:


The other way to tell the difference between the sport and the HC is the tubing diameter -- HC is larger.

For an track NB, IMHO, you want the hard core dual diagonal (non-HT), with a bolt-in harness bar. That's what I have:




--Ian
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Old 10-30-2014, 03:27 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
For an track NB, IMHO, you want the hard core dual diagonal (non-HT)
Depends how tall you are. HT versions are better for those of us that don't fit well in a Miata. How well does a ht fit over the non-ht version?
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:54 AM   #5
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Yeah, so I have two sport bars, because their tubing diameters are both 1.5", unlike the hard cores, which are 1.75".

So since we've established that they're both sport bars, but I don't have this bend:



in either one, does that mean neither of them will fit in my NB?
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:02 PM   #6
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I think that Hard Dog's designs have also evolved over the years. Might be worth E-mailing HD the pictures to ask about glass window compatibility. I've always found them to be helpful and responsive on the phone. I wouldn't be surprised if what you have on hand would work with the glass window.
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:09 PM   #7
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Random useful(?) info:
The NB hard core (non hardtop) bar WILL fit under a hardtop but the side latches will have to be removed.
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Old 10-30-2014, 12:17 PM   #8
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Look at the m1 and m2 sport. The m2 has the curve and the m1 doesn't.
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
Random useful(?) info:
The NB hard core (non hardtop) bar WILL fit under a hardtop but the side latches will have to be removed.
Yup, it fits under my hardtop just fine.

IMHO, if you're tall, you *want* the non-HT bar. The HT version is moved backwards a couple inches to provide access to the latches, but because the roofline is lower there it's shorter.

If you're tall enough that you need to recline the seat and then your head hits the non-HT bar, the solution is to lower the seat (start with foamectomy, then race seat, then cut out the rear seat mounts and bolt the seat to the floor), not to move the bar backwards. You can gain 3.5 inches this way. (Try *that* with pills!)

As for the question about the sport bars, I think you're probably right that neither one of them will fit an NB, although calling up Bethania Garage to confirm that is probably worth doing.

--Ian
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Old 10-30-2014, 01:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Look at the m1 and m2 sport. The m2 has the curve and the m1 doesn't.
The NB sport bar has a different curve, halfway down the leg. They don't show a shot of the NA sport bar in the spot where the curve on the blue car is visible.

--Ian
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Old 10-30-2014, 03:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
IMHO, if you're tall, you *want* the non-HT bar. The HT version is moved backwards a couple inches to provide access to the latches, but because the roofline is lower there it's shorter.

If you're tall enough that you need to recline the seat and then your head hits the non-HT bar, the solution is to lower the seat (start with foamectomy, then race seat, then cut out the rear seat mounts and bolt the seat to the floor), not to move the bar backwards. You can gain 3.5 inches this way. (Try *that* with pills!)
--Ian
I bought the ht version based on the recommendation from Bethania and I believe that was the right choice. It's lower but further back which adds clearance for a seat bolted all the way back.

Ultra shield bolted to the floor with rear humps removed. Going any lower would require cutting the floor. Fortunately I don't need to.

If you have figment questions and want to know what's best for you, call Bethania. They are super helpful.
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Old 10-30-2014, 04:25 PM   #12
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Gaaaaaaahhh. This is exactly the cluster ******* problem I'm having. Lots of suggestions on what fits what, or What I should get, but nothing telling me definitively what I do have.

The consensus I'm getting is that there are three different bar ends. One with a bend in the middle, one (which I have) with a bend at the end, and one with no bend (also have).

But I'm also hearing that it's not the only difference between soft top compatibility???

One more mention of a hard core and I ban a random noob. Or a hard top, which neither of mine are. I think.

Last edited by curly; 10-30-2014 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Fuck.
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Old 10-30-2014, 05:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Gaaaaaaahhh. This is exactly the cluster ******* problem I'm having. Lots of suggestions on what fits what, or What I should get, but nothing telling me definitively what I do have.

The consensus I'm getting is that there are three different bar ends. One with a bend in the middle, one (which I have) with a bend at the end, and one with no bend (also have).

But I'm also hearing that it's not the only difference between soft top compatibility???

One more mention of a hard core and I ban a random noob. Or a hard top, which neither of mine are. I think.
Every NB sport bar I've ever seen has the bend in the middle. You don't have that, so odds are you have two NA sport bars that are slightly different, and probably neither one of them fits your NB.

if you want to get beyond "odds are" and "probably" you either need to test fit the bar or call Bethania. They've been making these things for a couple decades now, there have been running changes along the way, and if anyone has a list of which bars look which way it will be them.

--Ian
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Old 11-01-2014, 04:31 AM   #14
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Here's some emails between Bethania Garage and me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly
I can't seem to find what the difference is between roll bars that will fit my NB with an OEM glass window soft top, and ones that won't.
I have two in my garage, pictures of their rear legs are attached. Is this bend the difference? Will either work with my soft top?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bethania
Do either of the bars have a harness bar welded between the rear braces? That is one difference in the first and second generation bars. Also do you know if the tubing is 1 1/2" or 1 3/4"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by curly
The tubing on both is 1.5", so they're both sport models. They both have double diagonals, and the one with zero bend in the rear bars has a welded in harness bar, the one with the kink where it goes through the parcel shelf has no harness bar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bethania
It sounds like you have two versions of the M1 Sport. Originally that bar had a bend at the bottom of the rear braces which was changed to the straight version several years back. The M2 Sport has a bend at the top of the rear braces and has always been built that way.

The bar with the welded harness bar is definitely out as the window would hit that harness bar. The diagonals in the other bar would probably come in contact with the glass when putting the top down.
So there ya go. I have two M1s, one of which is for sale so I can get an M2 for my NB DD.
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
So there ya go. I have two M1s, one of which is for sale so I can get an M2 for my NB DD.
So which bar are you gonna buy?

--Ian
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Old 11-01-2014, 03:40 PM   #16
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M2 sport with double diagonals. $70 less than the hard core, don't need the extra .25" for my DD.
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