worth it to build a 1.6L
 

I need to get in on the GB for the low comp pistons. The question is, what motor do i build. Right now i have two 1.6L motors that i can build and dont have to look for one (although pretty easy to get a 1.8L). The car is going to be a fast street/track car with 300 whp. Should i build the 1.6 i have? Or get a 1.8. And if i do get a 1.8 what year should it be? 94-97 99-00 or 01-04 (not sure about the end year on the last one)

What types of advantages would i see by building a 1.8 vs 1.6

Better overall torque curve. Faster spool. Better flow up top (99-00). Those are a couple things that come to mind. No replacement for displacement. PERIOD

A wise man once told me you could build a 1.6 just as strong as a 1.8 but they have there own ad/disadvantages. I know I will build my 1.6 when I get to that point. Only because I have 1.6's available to me. Many will say do the 1.8 because you can get the 99 head which flows better and such plus the 1.8 puts down a little more power. In all honesty I think it's how you build it that matters.

A lot of people would tell you to build a 1.8l. I am going to build a 1.6l this winter becuase I have a spare 1.6l and I have a turbo kit that works with a 1.6l and I have 1.6 mspnp. And a few hp is not that big of a deal to me.

1.8 will always make a better power/torque curve, and the 99-00 head will always flow more. However, if you have a ton of spare parts for 1.6 and want to do everything the cheapest way possible go for the 1.6. Hell, built and with lots of boost either one will make good power. The 1.6 powerband will just always be more to the right;)
just my .02

im might be building a 1.6 right now. I like it because its a peaky, quick revving SOB and I have two. even though it'll be a 1.7L when im done im going all out with it so the numbers should be interesting. im looking to make about 300-320whp but easily capable of more with a button. 1.8s will always be capable of more power if built right and only at the cost of acouple more pounds. I just like to be different.

It's a 15%+ bump in displacement, and if you use a '99 head, that adds some as well. It's your choice - I'd never drop $2k in a 1.6 motor.

Like I said It's all about what's easier for you to get..

Its really about whats readily available and easily accessible to you. If you can build a 1.6 for cheaper than a 1.8 then yeah you might wanna. 300whp, you might as well keep the 1.6. if you're building a 1.8 for about 50 more than it can make on a good turbo setup with a stock engine then you're really not working your built internals to much of their potential. It will be reliable i guess. Either way will be fine if you're planning to stay at 300whp

No one said what year 1.8L motor i should nab. Jay has a 99 motor that didnt run but the crank turns. The head has some scoring on the cam caps. He also has is 2001 motor with 22k miles that was running when pulled that i could pick up for a deal. The only thing is the motor has VVT and im not sure how that will work with my 90 wiring harness. Or should i just go to the junkyard and pick up a 94-97 motor?

Built a 1.6... people do it because they have spares.. or just blow their motor and want to get shit back together asap. If I had the time and preparation.. I would have gone 1.8.

Why don't you sell both of the 1.6L and get a 1.8L? If you are needing to keep one to drive the car during the build, then sell one and get some money towards the 1.8L. The cost difference would really be negligable for a decent shift on a dyno graph.

The correlation between then engine size and turbo size are directly inverse. The smaller the engine, the larger the turbo. This will create lag and will bo more expensive to get the larger turbo. In the end, you will be surprised as to how close the costs would be if you have two engines.

So what one then 94-97 99-00 or 2001

94-97 would be cheapest, but 99-00 would be best. A 94-97 typically runs between 350-500 and a 99-00 will run between 600-1000. Honestly, I would build the 94-97 engine and wait to find a head if you are a tight budget, unless you find a good deal on a 99-00.

Slight thread drift, but does fit this thread. Is there any difference between a 94-97 block/crank and 99-00 block/crank? I know that compression ratio is different but wouldn't matter as it would be getting rods/pistons.

I have a spare complete 99 motor/head/tranny dropout. I also have a spare 96 shortblock with a warped head from an auto car so it wasn't beat on but has 160K.

If I was to do a built motor, I'd do one of the two that is out of the car.

If I could drop my 99 head on the 96 block and everything would fit/work in my 99, I could sell the 99 motor. I just didn't know if there is anything port/sensor, block strength, etc that was different between 96 and 99 that would justify using the 99 motor?

There is no major difference between the two blocks. The only thing I don't know is about the oem knock sensor hook up. I have used a 99 motor in a 97 with no difference on where things hooked up, but don't know about using in reverse. I don't see a possible problem with anything but possibly the knock sensor, and even then I think it hooks up fine.

i almost built my 1.6 but then decided against it because i can make 2.0L out of 1.8L (and thats exactly what im doing right now)

Build a 1.8 period...... No Point building a 1.6. Swapping to a 1.8 is quite easy and the power difference is worth it!

I agree. I think it was already stated before, but "there's no replacement for displacement".

There is a cool build on a 1.7l 10k RPM race car from Maruha. Anyways you can add displacement to the 1.6 but not much. You still can build a 400hp motor from a 1.6 block.

Totally up to you. 1.6 aftermarket are found more often and are typically cheaper. This is why I built a 1.6.

Head flow better on a 1.8 and you have cylinder head options.

You can build a 1.6l to make as much power as you could possibly want in our tiny little cars. So it doesn't matter.

I have a spare 1.6L who wants to trade me for a 1.8L?

It does matter to tons of people hence this thread, It's all about What is easier to obtain IMHO

Buy that 01 and build it.

You're fucking stupid.

all I can say is..I am ditching my 1.6L and going for 1.8L setup. No replacement for displacement!!

Yes there is and it called driver's skill.


I really suppose it is up to you. Either way, It is rare to see a 400hp Miata (which is beyond my comprehension) and both motors will get you there with the proper turbo, build, engine management etc. In the end it really doesn't matter because that 400hp mark is mostly a dream everyone on this forum and with a 1.6 or 1.8 Miata. Build what you want.

But then again some folks don't build for power. I have many reasons for building my M62 1.6. If I just wanted power I could get 400hp out of my motor with the correct turbo.

To the OP, to answer your question if you are goaling for 300 then go with either motor. Either way both motors kick ass because they have iron blocks, stock low compression pistons, good cams for boosting, oil squirters, and will run until you car rusts away or until california goes under water.

What a creative and well thought out response.

When you don't have a good rebuttal, just call people names.

:loser:

sure, if you don't mine 1500rpm of boost.

1.6l rev higher stock than the 1.8l. The slight increase in displacement isn't gonna make it spool a bigger turbo much faster.

You'll be able to spin a 1.6l higher to make up for it. I prefer to spin 8k rpm, and make full boost around 4.5-5k rpm. Even with a GT2871R (good for 400-450whp) that should be easy to do. If you are going for over 500whp, get a LS*, cause 500whp (LS7 + mods) NA > FI 4cyl running tons of boost.

Savington, I am guessing you are running a 1.8l, and your sig says you have a 2871. At what RPM do you make full boost?

hitting target boost at 5k is pretty pathetic and I wouldn't want to drive that shit on the track so I could wait for it to hit target on every shift.

The justifications that people are providing for building a 1.6L seem to come from people who have not made high horse power with a 1.6L. It seems to me that what you guys think is that if a Miata can get X HP then it is the same as another miata with X HP. Overall HP should not cripple your power band. Like I said before, the relationship is directly inverse between the size of the turbo needed and the engine size. Getting a 1.8L will not only give you more torque in the low end, but require a smaller turbo. This will give you a much closer to linear power band.

I could strap on a damn GT3076R to a 1.6L and make an ungodly amount of HP, but it will be so unusable that it won't matter. I undertand that this is an extreme, but it just helps prove the point.

Also, dont' start feeding bullshit into this post about driver skill making it faster, because that is not what this was about. The question was simply whether or not he should build a 1.6L or 1.8L. Keep it that way.

It seems to me that too many people talking out of emotion rather than logic on this.

Most of you loser queers are going to need the extra torque from the 1.8 to pull your lard-ass girlfriends around.

FM has a direct comparison betwene a 1.6L and a 1.8L here with same specs other than engine.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno_...s_1.8_FMII.pdf

The cost difference is at most 10% of the total for a fully built motor...and you lose nearly 20% power over a 1.8L.

Simple math says it's a no-brainer.

Going back to OT. The dude wants 300hp. He can build an near linear powerband from both motors. If he truly wants a linear powerband then he will need a eaton or whipple to get to 300hp like BigGulp, Boig or Gibb.

Not many corners would require letting the engine go below 5k rpm. And the whole point of full boost at 5k is to help with TRACTION on the exit of slower corners. Sorry, but spinning the tires out of a corner isn't the fastest way to do it, unless you like drifting.

I'm only going for 400-450whp on my 1.6l. I'm gonna use either a GT2871R or GT2876R, which shouldn't have any issues with spool and make plenty of power.

um...I didn't have any problems with the loud pedal and 280wtq at 4000rpm at MSR.

Wow.....just wow. You really are fucking stupid. I am not saying that because I have nothing else better to say. It is just that you can't argue rational thought with irrational people.

What kind of tires? I was on unshaved 235-40-17 Toyo RA1s. They were good for a few laps, but then they went away pretty quickly. I guess trying to catch a 500whp Evo can do that to a set of tires.

Right....getting too big of a turbo is to help with traction coming out of a corner. I guess I have been doing it all wrong. The fact that makes sense to you bewilders me.

You should be able to control the car and not set up the car to control you.

Really? So you don't think a 1.6l can spool a GT28 by 5k rpm? That would still leave me 3k rpm to have fun with. How is that irrational? Do I have ANOTHER doubter? DAMN, I thought I had gotten past this in the "A Greddy can't make that much power on the WG" thread. I don't say shit unless it's 100% rational and plausible. I have a very good knowledge base that I rely on, and it isnt your average forum member.

So 400-450hp on a 1.6 with a 2876R is rational? Also, you only have 2400rpm to go there buddy, unless you build the head. Which you probably should with that small of a useable window to get as much as you can.

I don't have a big turbo yet. I'm still cruising with the Greddy TD04H-15G. It spooled too fast, and was making the car hard to drive out of a corner without having the back end kick out. So we tuned the boost controller and the cam gears to try and move it later in the RPMs so we could get more traction coming out of the slower corners. I try to set the car up for the track, not just force the car to work.

8k is the limit for the stock valvetrain in the 1.6l. Not 7400. Yes, GT2876R with 9.5:1 CR Wiseco Pistons, Methanol injection kit, and an AEM EMS. Should spool rather nicely. :fawk:

Then obviously you need to learn to drive your car or get something you can handle. I have never heard anyone say "man my turbo sure does spool too fast". I am done shitting on this guys thread.

You friggin' idiot, that's what you right foot is for.:bowrofl:

I have a hired gun that drives. "The Stig" as I call him. He's been given tons of free rides in race cars just based on his skill. Keith Verges gave him a free ride in his SM, Bob Stretch gave him a free ride in his ITA Miata, and might give him a seat in a GTA V8 car. He is currently in a Sprint Car, also a 100% free sponsored ride. So driving skill isn't an issue.

You can only make some much adjustment with a tiny turbo to control car position with the go-pedal. He was having issues coming out of Rattlesnake in 2d, so we moved the powerband up so he could get more traction and hit boost when he wanted it. It showed in the lap times, that is what matters.

No one cares. This really isnt what this thread is about.......

You're going to have problems with the 2176 because it makes 18psi at 4200rpm in my buddy's racecar.

What lap times did he turn at MSR's 1.7 CCW? I'd love to see where we line up with a mystery champion.

It's like a 15% increase in displacement, you fuckwit. Let me take 15% out of your paycheck and then you can call it slight.

You're a level beyond retard. Do you even own a fucking Miata? Stock 1.6 revs higher than stock 1.8?

Mods, can we please just ban this guy? He's a noncontributing troll, just like Hyper.

Your comparing your Driving to the stigs' ...... That's just stupid enough.... Even if your not the fact Is the stig Is an amazing driver imho and for you to say BS like that, is retarded!! Your driving skill is no where near the stigs so you shouldn't even care.... why don't you and your boy friend Zach effran go have sex in the back of your mom's mini van ok? don't BS It's Gay and NOT ok

welcome to the dallas track scene. Everyone is faster than everyone, yet no one knows lap times.

Fixed.

It is a sound theory though. If you have too much power and aren't coordinated enough to adjust it by backing off the gas pedal, tuning out power for that rpm range would work. A better idea would be to figure out how to get more traction and use that power, rather than wasting it. But what do I know, my turbo'd track slut has street tires and an open diff, so I don't have traction issues to deal with.

First ever use of the Ignore List function. Works pretty sweet!

I already get >15% taken out of it.

Add a few more psi, and BAM, replacement for displacement. This is a turbo forum, right?

I was actually refering to the redline assigned to the 1.6l vs 1.8l on the stock ECU. I have only found one 1.8l (2.0l stroker 688whp, I am sure most know who that would be, rev'd to 9k or something insane) that revs past 7k (went to almost 7.5k) on their dyno pulls. I actually don't know what the 1.8l can safely rev to stock. I know the 1.6l is 8k cause of the hyd lifters.

I still don't see why this is an argument/discussion. You can make more than enough power with a 1.6l or a 1.8l to overwhelm the chassis. Does it really make sense to swap to a 1.8l and still have to build it like you would the 1.6l to not be able to make any more USABLE power with it? If the car currently has a 1.6l, keep it, if it has a 1.8l, keep it, if you find a cheap 1.8l to swap in, it's not gonna hurt you any.

This is worse than the idiot Honda guys arguing over using a B16, B18A/B/B20, or B18C bottom end. They will all make more than enough power to shit yourself if you wanted.

I wonder if we'll have the "Swap in a MZR" guys in here next, like the K20 guys in Honda world?

I would like to think enough of our society that someone couldn't be this stupid. You are puting subjective reasoning into something that was an objective question. From an objective stand point, a 1.8L will be more effiecient at making more power from the same size turbo and at a lower RPM. From a subjective stand point, I feel it is a worthwhile investment.

You have 2 engines that could be pretty easily traded for a buildable 1.8L. Once you build the 1.6L the spare will be useless.

Reading Comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it? I said my friend, whom I call the Stig. How can you comment on my driving skills, you don't even know me?!?

Lap times don't matter, it's the cars you beat/kept up with at the track that matters. Sub 1:28s (1.7 CCW) is all I'll admit to right now. :ugh:

Well, if I was using my Hoosiers the car would have probably hooked, but on street tires, eh, no. We tuned for what we were running, which is how your supposed to do it. With the tiny Greddy turbo, you don't really get much of a chance to modulate the boost with throttle inputs, plus we weren't trying to baby it around the track, we were out to beat on an Evo.