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This just reinforces my previous/current anti FM and Hydra stance. Why would anyone buy an "ok" ECU for top dollar again and again when they could go for Megasquirt one time and be done.. On top of that it comes from the most overpriced miata vendor there is.
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I've said before that i didn't build my car, i bought it the way it is. That said, it has a Hydra ECU that came with the FM kit. the guy I bought it from couldn't get the car to recognize the wideband using 2.5 and it boost surged like crazy.
Hydra wouldn't help until he upgraded to 2.7, which he did and then the wideband still didn't work. The automatic boost control in 2.7 also doesn't work. it hits the boost limit and shuts the works off each time you step on the gas. the solution was to not use it, i have a fancy boost control solenoid under the hood and use a low tech turbosmart controller because it never worked. |
Originally Posted by shanem
(Post 989253)
I've said before that i didn't build my car, i bought it the way it is. That said, it has a Hydra ECU that came with the FM kit. the guy I bought it from couldn't get the car to recognize the wideband using 2.5 and it boost surged like crazy.
Hydra wouldn't help until he upgraded to 2.7, which he did and then the wideband still didn't work. The automatic boost control in 2.7 also doesn't work. it hits the boost limit and shuts the works off each time you step on the gas. the solution was to not use it, i have a fancy boost control solenoid under the hood and use a low tech turbosmart controller because it never worked. Oh. Wait.... |
I worked with a speed shop to help clear the name of MS. It didn't help there was an issue with the build and he had to send it back to me. :dealwithit: But I believe he was impressed with my support.
The best solution is: stop being an ignorant asshole and learn how to push the Autotune button. |
It still blows my mind that people are willing to shell out 2k for that crap:laugh:
Even more so when they're willing to shell out an additional 600 on top of the 2k for a newer version that is STILL just barely on par with MS. How does that saying go? "If you're gonna be dumb, you best be tough"? It should say " If you're gonna be dumb you best be rich " |
MS3 has a bad ass feature set on par with AEM EMS-4.
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Originally Posted by Ken Hill
(Post 989226)
I know I'm jumping in a little late, but I want to offer up some information from someone with a slightly different perspective. Full disclosure, I am a former FM employee from the Link ECU era. FM picked up the Hydra about 1 year after I left when the Link went away. Since leaving FM, I have been tuning ECUs on the side since 2005. I mainly support FM customers with Link and Hydra ECUs. I also work with AEM and Xede.
I was disappointed with the Hydra 2.5 came out. I felt the set up time and difficulties with boost control, idle, and starting were unacceptable in an ECU with a $2000 price tag. Still, I set up about 10 or 12 customers with 2.5s and they continue to drive the cars with no further adjustments necessary. Likewise, with 2.6. I felt it was no better then 2.5 and I could only get fuel autotuning to work about 10% of the time. At least with 2.5, auto tuning worked, it was just a little cumbersome. I did a lot of fuel tuning on 2.6s by hand. Regardelss, once set up, the ECU performed well with no further adjustments necessary. With the 2.5 I gave up early on using the EBC function. After much discussion with Jeremy about this, I like to think I conviced him to give up on it as well, but this is purly speculation on my part to boost my ego. However, 2.7 is a different story. For about the past year all the cars I have set up (about 8) have worked very, very well. The fuel auto tuning is excellent. Starting and idle is as good as OEM. I can not comment of boost control because all my customers are happy with a $100 manual controller. During all this time, I have been running my 2002 with an older FMII turbo kit with an AEM FIC6 replacing the Link Piggy back. I have never been inclined to install a Hydra because I could not justify the price. I am a husband and father with a mortgage, $2000 is a lot of money for me. However, I made the upgrade this winter based on the performance of my customer's cars. My wife is still angry I spent the money. To the OP, I fully understand your frustration. Hydra upgrades are very expensive, and you guys who bought in early truley have been screwed. However, if you do upgrade to the 2.7 I can assure you the car will run better. The fuel auto tuning is very easy and effective so you could do it yourself. If you chose to have someone tune it for you, they should be able to set up the car in a few hours and you will never have to touch it again. I own 2 laptops running Windows XP so I will be able to support older versions of Hydra ECUs for a long time to come. |
Everything I keep hearing or reading about the Hydra makes me happy I'm still running the old Link. It just works. Of course, I also like the KISS method for things. Mechanical idle, mechanical boost, always on fan.
Of course, it makes me sad too. I have a 2.17 Hydra on the shelf that I probably should either use or unload. |
Originally Posted by mcfandango
(Post 989748)
Everything I keep hearing or reading about the Hydra makes me happy I'm still running the old Link. It just works. Of course, I also like the KISS method for things. Mechanical idle, mechanical boost, always on fan.
Of course, it makes me sad too. I have a 2.17 Hydra on the shelf that I probably should either use or unload. |
Wow. Just. Wow. There's some horror stories in here.
It all seems to boil down to DIY - MS3x HSDIFY - AEM EMS4 from TSE? Keep one thing in mind, though. Just because someone *says* they can install and tune an AEM, doesn't make it so. I have a buddy who just sold his built Supra, because no one down here can tune it. The first shop had it wired in wrong, according to the second shop, and the third shop said the second shop only said that to get extra labor. The third shop had it hooked up wrong, as it reset his tables to base every time the car was turned off (ign+ instead of 12v+?). I was going to help him tackle the install, but decided to bug out as soon as I found wire nuts splicing not the same color wires on his ECU harness. Poor bastard. |
If your looking for a plug and play standalone for an 01' to 05' the Hydra is the only option that will control the VVT. I looked at all the available ECUs last summer before deciding on the Hydra.
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Originally Posted by Ken Hill
(Post 989826)
If your looking for a plug and play standalone for an 01' to 05" the Hydra is the only option that will control VVT. I looked at all the available ECUs last summer before deciding on the Hydra.
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or a MS3x, that was made to be PNP; that's been available for over a year now.
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Originally Posted by Ken Hill
(Post 989826)
If your looking for a plug and play standalone for an 01' to 05' the Hydra is the only option that will control the VVT. I looked at all the available ECUs last summer before deciding on the Hydra.
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if the Hydra is the only thing you found you REALLY weren't looking very hard
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For the Megasquirt options I went to this website, MegaSquirtPNP Plug-and-Play MegaSquirt Engine Management Systems by DIYAutoTune Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com I did not find a plug and play unit for a 2002 car last summer and I do not see one now.
Yes the AEM EMS4 is out there, but it is not a plug in and I did not want to make a harness for it. My car is a daily driver. I expect it to start and idle perfectly with the AC on. I did not get the feeling the the EMS 4 is up to the task of giving me OEM performance. AEM support is good, but not Miata specific. I have set up 24 customer cars with Hydra ECUs. Its a known qunatity for me. Like I said above, I was very impressed by the performance of my customer cars running 2.7 ECUs so I decided it was the best option for me. |
That's cool.
Or they can get an MS3 from rev for $699 and do everything just as nice and have a remaining $1300 for hookers and blow (or like 3 professional tunes, or wheels+tires, or or or or or......) |
it's closer to 750 but yeah.
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Yes, they can get the Basic MS3 for $754 shipped, which fully controls the VVT, alternator, CEL, A/C, etc.
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 989948)
Yes, they can get the Basic MS3 for $754 shipped, which fully controls the VVT, alternator, CEL, A/C, etc.
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Originally Posted by Ken Hill
(Post 989226)
I am a husband and father with a mortgage, $2000 is a lot of money for me. However, I made the upgrade this winter based on the performance of my customer's cars. My wife is still angry I spent the money.
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So tell me, for us folks with a Hydra that are considering switching to MS3.. Can you use the same wideband and knock sensor?
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You can use any wideband you want with MS3 as far as i know... as long as you can get the correct offset curve on there.
Or you could sell your hideously expensive Hydra-specific wideband and use the money to get a brand new MTX-L and a 12 pack of your favorite brew. I would ASSume the knock sensor could carry over, but i was also under the impression that Hydra used the stock knock sensor. Is that not so? |
The Hydra wideband can't be used, because its only a sensor, and you also need a controller to control the sensor itself. So sell the wideband to someone else with a Hydra and get an AEM or an Innovate.
The knock sensor can be used with the MS3. |
Oops, sorry. Thanks for straightening me out, Rev.
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 991704)
The Hydra wideband can't be used, because its only a sensor, and you also need a controller to control the sensor itself. So sell the wideband to someone else with a Hydra and get an AEM or an Innovate.
The knock sensor can be used with the MS3. CONN-85590 for pigtail or CONN-00135 for kit: Home » Shop » Wideband O2 » O2 Connectors » 8 way NGK / NTK Connector Kit to adapt Bosch LSU Sensor for NGK Powerdex AFX |
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
(Post 991785)
Exactly. Just to add to this, I would personally recommend the NGK Powerdex AFX which would allow you to still run the same sensor (and it comes with a new sensor when you buy the unit too) IF you modify the connector back to stock.
please say yes. |
1 Attachment(s)
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when the purple text comes out, all hell breaks loose
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Originally Posted by vtjballeng
(Post 991785)
Exactly. Just to add to this, I would personally recommend the NGK Powerdex AFX which would allow you to still run the same sensor (and it comes with a new sensor when you buy the unit too) IF you modify the connector back to stock.
CONN-85590 for pigtail or CONN-00135 for kit: Home » Shop » Wideband O2 » O2 Connectors » 8 way NGK / NTK Connector Kit to adapt Bosch LSU Sensor for NGK Powerdex AFX I like the NTK wideband, I hate the fact that they're morons and refuse to make it with a 52mm round gauge. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 991787)
Do you want to know why I think the AFX is an awesome choice in order to save $35 for a sensor!!!!?????
please say yes. The AEM units have gotten better over the years and are presently a solid choice. The innovate systems have gotten better over the years though I still have a few issues with some of their products. I have personally used several controllers from AEM and Innovate and ECM product and the Powerdex. For any application under $1500 (when you start to step into the AFM range) I currently recommend the Powerdex AFX. The exception is when you need some of the features of the AEM or Innovate that the Powerdex doesn't have. As a side note and perhaps what Brain is alluding to is that my company does sell the AFX. I also sell the AEM and previously sold the Innovate units (we stopped because of problems with the product). Having experience with all three and presently selling two of them, I recommend the AFX based on price/quality and in reference to this thread because he can re-use his sensor. In reference to the $35, the NTK sensors cost more than this and are generally regarded as better sensors. In regards to the connector, just pointing out what can be done. I'm not here to cull profit for a connector sale, just trying to help because I have a Turbo Miata myself and follow this forum (one of the better ones I have used over the years). Same reason I created a Miata specific connector page and will be working on that for the community. Because track enthusiast with same car. Not because $$$. Miata parts sales aren't likely to put a dent in anything either way so just here to add to thread. |
you guys are making it too hard.
here's the top 12 reasons Brain thinks you should buy a AFX:
2 - LC-1 User Manual 9 - User Experience 11 -Universal Digital Tuning Products and Tuning Tools from Innovate Motorsports 12 - http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.php?p=6177062&postcount=2 |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 991803)
you guys are making it too hard.
here's the top 12 reasons Brain thinks you should buy a AFX:
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:laugh: ordering one now
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I always wanted to make a bracelet with a friend.
Now I just need a friend :cry: |
Just for a cost prospective, I spent about $275 to build my MS1 back in 2007. Then in 2010 spent $200 on the MS3 daughter board, then another $90 on the expansion board when it was released. In 2012 I spent $85 on the knock module. So I have had some upgrade costs along the way to go from an MS1 to MS3X, but even all together build costs have been less then 1 hydra update cost.
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That's because MS is clearly inferior. I mean it has a manual. Its obviously too simple.
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I really like it when I have to scroll through my tables cause they wont fit on a single screen
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I used to have to do that with the early adaptronic WARI software
boy do I not miss that :laugh: |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 991817)
I really like it when I have to scroll through my tables cause they wont fit on a single screen
You poor poor peasant. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 991803)
you guys are making it too hard.
here's the top 12 reasons Brain thinks you should buy a AFX:
2 - LC-1 User Manual 9 - User Experience 11 -Universal Digital Tuning Products and Tuning Tools from Innovate Motorsports 12 - http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.php?p=6177062&postcount=2 Crosspost from miata.net :fawk: |
Brain was original in like 2007.
Now he just copy/pastas everything *edit: actually nvm. he was never original. he just copypastas his previous copypasta:brain: |
i wrote that only a few weeks ago.
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 991795)
I like the NTK wideband, I hate the fact that they're morons and refuse to make it with a 52mm round gauge.
It really only does one thing which is control the NTK or Bosch sensor properly, dump out an analog and display the reading on the screen. However, it does that thing better than any other controller up to the $1500 range where you are then comparing ECM product to other ECM product (calibration quality equipment to ther calibration quality equipment).
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 991803)
I only went through this because some of the arguments are just asinine like the range (stop going rich stupid) and having to calibrate often (all units that require calibration have exactly the same requirement, if the NGK people happen to tell you to calibrate more often then they are just asking you to be more diligent but this is happenstance and not a function of product quality). I will stop with threadjack now. Today with the features available, software etc I think I would end up going EMS-4 due to price / performance. Also thinking about the Hydra a little more, each time they are doing an upgrade from say 2.6 to 2.7 they are doing a board change and really offering a different product. Were it AEM they would like give it a new name and consider it an independent product. AEM would keep the old product alive and well with full function and continue to support it. With that said, the Hydra method does force the upgrade path considering it a linear, moving product. Their method is fundamentally unique and a marketing / support nightmare for a reseller. Especially when some versions are just duds. If AEM released a dud independent product, it would get an independent product based bad reputation and simply not sell well. AEM would release a new version, call it something else fix the issues and move on. In the Hydra method a bad product or rev affects the entire line and company in a much more fundamental way. Even if Hydra Nemesis 2.7 is great (and it is MUCH better than 2.6 in so many ways), it will take a long time to flush the bad rep of other recent versions and the upgrade path just tends to leave customers dissatisfied. |
tl;dr the AFX is a joke.
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Everything you just said is a terrible terrible "argument' and Brain is going to have a field day with it.
Just saying Q-Why does the range suck? A-Do you REALLY need a wider range? Q-Why is the packaging bad? A-Do you REALLY need better packaging? Q-Etc A-Stupid pathetic excuses why the product is inferior to everything and counter-questions along the lines "do you absolutely need this?" terrible |
Hey, excuse me I'd like the range to make it somewhere leaner than 17 because lean cruise.
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My car easily cruises above 16.0:1 when i've got it set up for long hauls.
I don't want to sit there watching that stupid box freaking out showing nothing or error or whatever the hell it does. This all said, we've been using it on my buddy's MR2 Turbo for a long time and it's been pretty reliable. The display does suck in sunlight for sure. I'd use one if given to me for free, but i'd never buy one. |
Yeah, so this forum hates the AFX. A continuation should be moved to it's own thread or just end threadjack which was in my "tl;dr". The end of my "tl;dr" is about AEM / Hydra stuff per thread.
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Originally Posted by vtjballeng
(Post 991846)
Also thinking about the Hydra a little more, each time they are doing an upgrade from say 2.6 to 2.7 they are doing a board change and really offering a different product. Were it AEM they would like give it a new name and consider it an independent product. AEM would keep the old product alive and well with full function and continue to support it.
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Originally Posted by thenuge26
(Post 991872)
I've never owned or used a Hyrda. But I'm just guessing that they do the 'upgrade' thing rather than call it an entirely new product because the features that were advertised for 2.5 didn't actually work until 2.7. If it wasn't an upgrade, they would have even more people pissed at them for that.
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Haha I was sort of joking. If you promise X in 2.5, but it doesn't work, and then you try to release v3.0 with X working, people aren't going to be happy.
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Originally Posted by thenuge26
(Post 991899)
Haha I was sort of joking. If you promise X in 2.5, but it doesn't work, and then you try to release v3.0 with X working, people aren't going to be happy.
The part that still gets me pissed is that if you pay for extra "unlocks" on an earlier version and you want to upgrade, you have to pay for those same unlocks AGAIN. |
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 988636)
I have 2.6 hydra installed on my 64 bit windows 7 PC. The installer just has the dumb and installs half the program to c/program files/hydra and the other half to c/program files (x86)/hydra. I dont even think that would be a problem on a 32 bit windows. The installer also has the dumb and if for some reason you dont have a c drive it wont install at all.
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Originally Posted by devgru38
(Post 997854)
Sorry for the OT, but I just signed into this forum for the first time in years, as I recently obtained Sonny/VagaXT's Hydra 2.6 and couldn't figure out why the hell the installer wasn't working. Google/forum searches gave nothing. I randomly read through this thread, as it was near the top of the forum, and bam, there's my answer. Much thanks
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Originally Posted by fooger03
(Post 998095)
Sonny gave me a ride in that car, it's a nice piece.
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Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 988507)
If i'm this pissed now, think how shitty i'd be if i was actually the person that had actually purchased the EMS new and had it installed on my car. (Rhetorically of course, because i'm not actually dumb enough to buy one outright.)
I shudder to think that there's some poor fuckers out there that bought 2.1, and have purchased every upgrade along the way, paying to have their shit retuned every time. It's conceivable to think that someone has $8-$10k in this piece of shit EMS. Good point though Sav. AEM or Haltech are on my short list for this particular car. |
Originally Posted by Ken Hill
(Post 989875)
For the Megasquirt options I went to this website, MegaSquirtPNP Plug-and-Play MegaSquirt Engine Management Systems by DIYAutoTune Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products - DIYAutoTune.com I did not find a plug and play unit for a 2002 car last summer and I do not see one now.
Yes the AEM EMS4 is out there, but it is not a plug in and I did not want to make a harness for it. My car is a daily driver. I expect it to start and idle perfectly with the AC on. I did not get the feeling the the EMS 4 is up to the task of giving me OEM performance. AEM support is good, but not Miata specific. I have set up 24 customer cars with Hydra ECUs. Its a known qunatity for me. Like I said above, I was very impressed by the performance of my customer cars running 2.7 ECUs so I decided it was the best option for me. However the prototype 01+ MSPNP is currently running in my car right now. We were just waiting to knock out a few little things, and those things are now done. Our PIDs work very well, so boost control, idle, VVT, and alternator control all work spectacularly, all closed loop, no excuses. It is MS3 based and will retail for substantially less than Hydra. Expect release shortly. Future firmware updates occur at no charge. The hardware, software, and firmware developers are openly contactable and provide support via email and forums. Do you ever see the developers of Haltech, Hydra, AEM, et all supporting forums and asking users for their feature requests? Common with MegaSquirt. Tuning software is compatible with 32 or 64 bit Windows XP, 7, 8; Linux; Mac OS X 10.5+ Datalog programs are also available on Android. Android tuning interface release expected this summer. Android interfaces communicate via bluetooth, via serial > bluetooth adapter plugged into MegaSquirt. |
Its a race between you and Reverant to see who gets my money for a PnP solution for my 01. Get to it!:party:
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2 Attachment(s)
Like I posted in miata.net, you can get a Basic MS3 for the 01-05 from us. VVT control included.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1366700426 |
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