"Forced" Hydra 2.7 upgrade - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 03-11-2013, 11:50 PM   #1
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Default "Forced" Hydra 2.7 upgrade

Are you ******* kidding me?

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Hi Hydra 2.1 & 2.5 owners,



Hydra has informed me that they are implementing a final (big) sale for you to upgrade to the 2.7 platform. After this period is over they will be discontinuing support for 2.1 & 2.5, and any upgrade requests will all be full price. We at FM can still support these older units to an extent, however keep in mind that our only Windows XP laptop is on its last leg- and once it’s gone, our Windows 7 computers will not work with anything pre-2.7. The following is Hydra’s wording on the program.



“We are now offering a final upgrade sale for all 2.1 - 2.5 units. This Sale will last till end of June 2013. As of July 1st, we will no longer be supporting the 2.1 - 2.5 Hydra platform. All manuals and Software for those platforms will be removed from our site, and units will need to be upgraded to 2.7 at regular prices for support. The sale price for both 2.1 and 2.5 systems is $600 which includes Gamma upgrade, Flex Fuel and CAN support upgrade and Long term fuel trim (auto tune). A savings of over $700. All units coming for upgrade must be tested to be determined if they are eligible for upgrade. This sale will officially start on March 25th and will be posted on our website and Facebook then. You can start emailing your Customers now so we can start the upgrade process.”



Let me know if you have any questions or if you’d like to get this done- I think it’s a great deal. Once you’re issued a RMA# you have 30 days to send your ECU in for the work to be done. I will handle the billing, I’ll provide you with a RMA# & Hydra’s address, and I will also provide you with new base mapping for the 2.7 platform. Technically there is a way to import your old maps into 2.7 (via 2.6), but in my experience it is so cumbersome & causes enough problems that you’re much better off starting with a new base map. Therefore I prefer not to import old maps myself.



Here’s the break down of the stages, Gamma will cover most owners.

Flyin' Miata : Hydra Nemesis 2.7 package information



The Wideband long-term trim is something that I think everyone should get, so it’s good that it is included.



We do have Flex Fuel systems available which are a nice compliment to this.

Flyin' Miata : Engine/Drivetrain : Fuel and Ignition



We also now have a 36-2 trigger wheel that works with 2.7

Flyin' Miata : Engine/Drivetrain : Engine computers : 36-2 tooth timing wheel

New FM 36-2 trigger wheel for Hydra ECUs - MX-5 Miata Forum



CAN bus features are still a work in progress as far as interface devices. 2.7 works with the AiM Sports MXL dashes now, and we’re working on a basic interface with the Innovate OT-2. More to come in the future.

AiM Sports - The World Leader in Data Acquisition

OT-2 OBD-II WiFi Interface for PCs and Smartphones



Here is a link to where you can download the latest 2.7 r31 software if you’d like to take a look at the interface.

Hydra EMS - Software



Thanks, let me know if you have questions or if you’d like to place an order. J



I'm ******* done with this bullshit.

Already paid FM for two hours of tuning. Car ran worse afterwards. ~$350-$400 down.

Bought a wideband sensor from FM so i could have the car re-tuned locally, paid for rush shipping. ~$300 down.

Local guy flaked 4-5 times, still has my wideband. I need to go pick it up so i can have the car tuned. Tune will cost me $300.

So i'm already looking at about a grand just to get this ******* piece of **** EMS to a point that i can drive my car to the gas station without it stalling.


THEN, if i want continued support, i have to make the jump to 2.7. I will not have the money or time to send the ECU out during the sale. I'm taking this car on my 3 week wedding trip in June, and i simply don't trust that i would get the ECU back in time, and that it would be tuned in time after getting it back, since apparently we'd have to start from scratch with a new base map.

I don't get to take advantage of the sale, then. So then, pay full price for an upgrade when i get back if i want any support going forward (more on that in a second.). THEN, pay to have the thing tuned again, since apparently even though 2.7, like 2.6, 2.5, and 2.16 before it is God's Gift To Man, but somehow can't handle a map import without a high probability of clusterfuck.

Normal upgrade is $600, but doesn't include a couple things that i don't care about. (Flex fuel, CAN) Does not include Long Term Fuel Trim, which i DO care about, so there's extra money to "unlock" that capability. I believe it's $250 to unlock that. (I'd have to double check.)

Then what? I get to have the ******* thing tuned again. $300, maybe $450 since this time we'd have to start with a base map.

So.... $1150 to $1300.



Long story short, if i want to continue with Hydra, have support down the road, and have the car run worth a damn, i'm looking at another $2300 invested.

ARE YOU ******* KIDDING ME? WHERE'S THE VALUE IN THIS?


Also, i find it HIGHLY unlikely that "Windows 7 computers will not work with anything pre-2.7."

Why? Someone is going to have to explain that to me. Is it an issue with logging? Because the software will absolutely install and load on Windows 7. (I have 2.5 R12 on my windows 7 laptop as a backup just in case something goes wrong with the tuner's.)


Sorry about the rant, but this is ridiculous. I refuse to support this insanity any further than i have to, and for the moment, that simply means that i pay my money to have it tuned, and wait for it to **** the bed again, at which point i'll sell it to some poor sap on ClubRoadster, and then have an EMS4 installed and tuned for the same money that the Hydra upgrade will cost me. A WHOLE NEW EMS FOR THE SAME PRICE AS AN UPGRADE.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:02 AM   #2
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But I have heard so many good things about Hydra. Oh wait, no, nevermind, I haven't.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:06 AM   #3
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I'm not sure when AEM first released the 30-1710 box, but I bought mine new 5 years ago and I have a box older than that in Rover right now. Both of them are still fully supported by AEM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by latena View Post
But I have heard so many good things about Hydra. Oh wait, no, nevermind, I haven't.

But the free upgrade includes Flex Fuel capabilities! Just buy our $995 kit to take advantage of it! It'll even trim your boost based on fuel analysis with the on-board boost control that may or may not work, despite having been one of the advertising points to upgrade to 2.5 (didn't work,) 2.6 (didn't work), and 2.7. (Maybe works? Been conflicting reports.) Yeah, i TOTALLY trust Hydra to ramp back boost when it sees a change in gas.

Pull timing? ABSOLUTELY. It's GREAT at pulling timing.

"Steve, i don't like the color of your shirt, i'm going to **** all over your timing map above 5000rpms."

"**** you, Hal."
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:11 AM   #5
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AEM still supports 30-1710 boxes manufactured in 2001.

If i'm this pissed now, think how shitty i'd be if i was actually the person that had actually purchased the EMS new and had it installed on my car. (Rhetorically of course, because i'm not actually dumb enough to buy one outright.)

I shudder to think that there's some poor ******* out there that bought 2.1, and have purchased every upgrade along the way, paying to have their **** retuned every time.

It's conceivable to think that someone has $8-$10k in this piece of **** EMS.


Good point though Sav. AEM or Haltech are on my short list for this particular car.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:00 AM   #6
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Hate to say I did it, but jumped the Hydra ship. Waiting for my AEM and a motor now. Hydra just got to greedy and unsupported.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:27 AM   #7
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Your rant is valid and honest. Go have someone build you a fully functional and perpetually supported MS3.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:35 AM   #8
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I have 2.6 hydra installed on my 64 bit windows 7 PC. The installer just has the dumb and installs half the program to c/program files/hydra and the other half to c/program files (x86)/hydra. I dont even think that would be a problem on a 32 bit windows. The installer also has the dumb and if for some reason you dont have a c drive it wont install at all.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:51 AM   #9
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Your rant is valid and honest. Go have someone build you a fully functional and perpetually supported MS3.
That's honestly the "best" option.

But i have one problem with it, and it's one of those "It's not you, it's me" kindof things.

I have no interest whatsoever in tuning this car myself. I don't want to. I don't want to spend time on the phone with anyone about why the car doesn't work. I don't want to have to post online with my logs asking what i fucked up. This car is not a project, and i'm honestly considering selling it (more so than i was in the first place) rather than deal with this whole clusterfuck.

If i "fix" Hydra by putting something else in it, it'll be dropped off to someone to have them install and tune an EMS they're comfortable and familiar with. I'm not doing it myself. I want something i can have face to face support for locally.

Hydra was supposed to be that for me, which is one of the reasons i bought the car in the first place. I was assured that this car would be trouble free, better than a stock ECU car in every way. It hasn't been. It's been a clusterfuck, and no real local support.


I realize i sound like a whiny bitch when i say i don't want to touch/tune the car myself, but i really don't have the time. I have a race car. I have a car i pretty much have to build from scratch for the GRM $2013 Challenge. I have to tear down my daily driver to fix a whole host of issues and also get it ready for the GRM $2013 Challenge. I have to rebuild the suspension/steering on my Cherokee.

I have another Miata project that i WILL be wiring and tuning myself.

I've already got too much on my plate. I'm not interested in the slightest in having another project added. This was supposed to be "the nice car" that i can just get in and drive to go to dinner, take on weekend trips without worrying about it, or just pull out to go drive in the country to unwind. NOT something that can sit in the garage while i try to figure out what i fucked up in the install/tune myself. I'm just not willing to take responsibility of this car.

I haven't really tuned a Megasquirt car before. We leave in June for a 6000 mile trip. I can't take that chance. I also wouldn't be able to trust a car that i've tuned with my Fiancee to take to work if she so chooses. (And she does.)

I've only put 4,000 miles on this car since i got it home July 2011. Because of Hydra. It's time to **** or get off the pot for me. In this case "****" means EMS4 more than likely. "Get off the pot" means selling the car and getting an RX8 or a BRZ/FRS.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:52 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I have 2.6 hydra installed on my 64 bit windows 7 PC. The installer just has the dumb and installs half the program to c/program files/hydra and the other half to c/program files (x86)/hydra. I dont even think that would be a problem on a 32 bit windows. The installer also has the dumb and if for some reason you dont have a c drive it wont install at all.
Right... so you just move the files to where they need to go. It's SERIOUSLY not an issue in the slightest. Took my buddy and i a whopping 10 minutes to figure it out.

Voila! 2.5 R12 running on 64bit Windows 7.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:05 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Right... so you just move the files to where they need to go. It's SERIOUSLY not an issue in the slightest. Took my buddy and i a whopping 10 minutes to figure it out.

Voila! 2.5 R12 running on 64bit Windows 7.
I think leafy was just adding to the '**** hydra' circlejerk.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:10 PM   #12
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I think leafy was just adding to the '**** hydra' circlejerk.
I was being helpful, kind of. But hydra 2.6 is a hateful piece of software. You mean I cant click into the middle of a table?
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
I think leafy was just adding to the '**** hydra' circlejerk.
Yeah, the installer is stupid, and the front end sucks anyways.

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I was being helpful, kind of. But hydra 2.6 is a hateful piece of software. You mean I cant click into the middle of a table?
I'm told 2.6 is actually an improvement over 2.5. Scary, huh?

My friend Chris says that 2.7 is a large improvement, though. Brings Hydra front end solidly into the "OK at best" realm.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:50 PM   #14
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no time to tune your custom hot rod? then dont custom hot rod.

Seriously, make it stock plus bolt ons and no need for engine management and just enjoy it. Having a car you can't tune is an unrealistic expectation I think you set yourself up for. Unless you can get something tuned at the local WalMart, then it's never going to be the right solution for you.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
no time to tune your custom hot rod? then dont custom hot rod.

Seriously, make it stock plus bolt ons and no need for engine management and just enjoy it. Having a car you can't tune is an unrealistic expectation I think you set yourself up for. Unless you can get something tuned at the local WalMart, then it's never going to be the right solution for you.
I didn't custom hot rod.

I don't have the stock parts. I never had the stock parts.

Having a car i can't (more like don't want to/don't have the time to) tune isn't an unrealistic expectation, provided i'm ok with paying a local tuner to tune it and support an EMS of their choice.

Luckily i'm ok with that in this instance.

When it comes to cars that have to perform at a moment's notice with no bullshit, i'd rather trust a pro to take care of that and take myself out of the equation. I know my own limitations, and admit them freely. This is also why i don't weld my own pimpy turbo manifolds. Do you weld your own pimpy turbo manifolds? Or do you pay someone else to do it/buy already made? There's no difference between "fabrication" or "tuning" in this context. I also can't weld, should i just leave all my cars stock and never buy a modified car?


I'm not afraid of tuning when it comes to cars that don't matter if something goes wrong. But then we get back into the difference between "Toy" and "Project." I play with toys. I work on projects.



Now let's get back to Hydra sucking and shitting all over their established user base.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:12 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
no time to tune your custom hot rod? then dont custom hot rod.

Seriously, make it stock plus bolt ons and no need for engine management and just enjoy it. Having a car you can't tune is an unrealistic expectation I think you set yourself up for. Unless you can get something tuned at the local WalMart, then it's never going to be the right solution for you.
It's not at all an unreasonable expectation. There are plenty of shops out there that can install and tune a box so the owner never has to tweak on it. I have tuned more than a couple of cars like this over the years - the owners want all the benefits of a standalone, but are willing to shell out the bucks to have someone else set it all up so they never have to worry about it.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:15 PM   #17
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It's not at all an unreasonable expectation. There are plenty of shops out there that can install and tune a box so the owner never has to tweak on it. I have tuned more than a couple of cars like this over the years - the owners want all the benefits of a standalone, but are willing to shell out the bucks to have someone else set it all up so they never have to worry about it.
I'm even cool with paying for an hour or two of tuning a time or two a year if i feel a touch up should be made.

I also don't tune my own race car for this reason. I need it to perform each and every time. The more the car (variables) i can take out of the equation, the better i can focus on my own performance.

Neither scenario is unreasonable or even uncommon.



And maybe someday through my Projects, i'll feel comfortable enough to tune my Toys.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
It's not at all an unreasonable expectation. There are plenty of shops out there that can install and tune a box so the owner never has to tweak on it. I have tuned more than a couple of cars like this over the years - the owners want all the benefits of a standalone, but are willing to shell out the bucks to have someone else set it all up so they never have to worry about it.
I also see nothing wrong with this, I'm solidly in this department as well.

I'm not a paint and bodywork guy. I know that I cannot get the results I want by doing it myself. I lack the tools and experience to DIY. I plan on paying someone to "do it right the first time" and then not worry about it. I understand regular upkeep will be required, but that is to be expected.

Take my above statement and replace "paint and bodywork" with "tuning" and the exact same applies. I also feel its not an unreasonable expectation. Once I get my hardware squared away, I'll be calling Andrew for tuning services. He's local and he knows his ****, and I trust him to get me what I need.

concealer404: I don't think you are out of line, your rage seems appropriate from where I'm sitting
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
I didn't custom hot rod.

I don't have the stock parts. I never had the stock parts.

Having a car i can't (more like don't want to/don't have the time to) tune isn't an unrealistic expectation, provided i'm ok with paying a local tuner to tune it and support an EMS of their choice.

Luckily i'm ok with that in this instance.

When it comes to cars that have to perform at a moment's notice with no bullshit, i'd rather trust a pro to take care of that and take myself out of the equation. I know my own limitations, and admit them freely. This is also why i don't weld my own pimpy turbo manifolds. Do you weld your own pimpy turbo manifolds? Or do you pay someone else to do it/buy already made? There's no difference between "fabrication" or "tuning" in this context. I also can't weld, should i just leave all my cars stock and never buy a modified car?


I'm not afraid of tuning when it comes to cars that don't matter if something goes wrong. But then we get back into the difference between "Toy" and "Project." I play with toys. I work on projects.



Now let's get back to Hydra sucking and shitting all over their established user base.
no.

I just sold my highly modified turbo miata with megasquirt to someone who hasn't ever tuned one. I'm part of the problem!

Also I only welded my wastegate flange on to my manifold and the turbo back exhaust. I did not do the manifold. I mean come on, it was my daily driver.

But I tuned on the way to work and on the way home because I could and wanted the eke out the pinnacle of driveability. And my car did drive very stocklike. Point of fact, the wife of the guy I sold it to is driving it now and she's not a car person. Sure it's hard to start sometimes because I never had time to finish tuning the startup enrichments in 30F weather, but no shop will be able to do that for $1000 in tuning either. OK, nobody'd pay for it if they would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
It's not at all an unreasonable expectation. There are plenty of shops out there that can install and tune a box so the owner never has to tweak on it. I have tuned more than a couple of cars like this over the years - the owners want all the benefits of a standalone, but are willing to shell out the bucks to have someone else set it all up so they never have to worry about it.
It's not unreasonable if you have convenient access to those guys. If I were the OP and lived in Maryland or DC, I'd keep the Hydra and just shell out big dollars to Element Tuning or whatever. or FM in Colorado. Or whatever.

But that's the tradeoff, right? If time is money, money is time. What do you think I'd have had to pay for 4 years worth of tuning and gigabytes worth of datalogs at a shop?

Ultimately the equation for me worked like this:

1 turbo miata
+ megasquirt
- time because of baby and other social engagements and no garage

=

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Old 03-12-2013, 06:02 PM   #20
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Well that's just the thing.... this car is never driven in 30 degree weather. It operates from mid spring to mid fall, and sits in storage the rest of the time. It's rarely driven in rain, for that matter.

I have convenient access to a tuner that i trust. I will be removing Hydra and replacing it with an ECU that he supports.

Money most certainly is time as you say. It'd take me hundreds of hours to get the car running half as good as a professional could get it running in 2 hours and maybe a couple mornings of cold start tweaking. I'd say paying for 2 hours of tuning is a pretty good use of my time and money. :P


You and i are on the same page, the only difference is that i'm just flat out not willing to take the time/risk to tune this particular car myself, and that's that.


It's an interesting topic, though. And maybe one day i'll be "that guy" that tells everyone to tune their own cars themselves because i tune all my own cars like a man should. *grunts*

For the moment however... i have 6 vehicles. 3 of them have standalones. Two of them are/will be running massive piggyback clusterfucks that do give a semblance of "tunability."

I have a whopping total of ONE out of SIX vehicles that doesn't need some sort of tuning from time to time. I'll leave the "nice" car and the race car to the pros.

Last edited by concealer404; 03-12-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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