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Hydra 2.7 Lean under Low Load

 
Old 05-05-2019, 06:08 PM
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Default Hydra 2.7 Lean under Low Load

My FM2 equipped 2003 Miata was running fine and then developed a problem going lean AFR gauge shows --- or 17.9 -18.0 at crusing/ low throttle situations. Get into boost, AFR's are in 11's to 10's depending on rpm and psi. Like they should be. Idle seems okay. I first thought I had a TPS problem so recalibrated cold and hot. Running at 12psi., LS coIls. 3" FM exhaust.Checked grounds, checked for vacuum leaks. All good. When showing lean conditions car runs slightly hotter as would be expected, so it probably IS that lean. Nothing major just about 205 where I would expect 195 or so.

Does Hydra even use info from O2 sensor? If so, how can I test it. I'll be installing a new engine from Trackspeed Engineering as soon as it gets her ( soon) they say and do not want to have any sort of lean condition with new motor.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Paul
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Old 05-05-2019, 11:15 PM
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Your wide-band O2 sensor might be on the way out (when mine died, it kept adding fuel until it was running pig rich). I would start by calibrating the sensor (which involves removing it from the downpipe and letting it dangle in free air). If the calibration isn't the problem, replacing the sensor is a good next step. Don't forget that you need a Hydra-specific part. Which version of Hydra are you running?
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:02 AM
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Thanks for the reply Deer Hunter. I'm on version 2.7. I'll do a calibration and see if there's any change.

Paul
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:32 AM
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Okay, so you have LTT (Long Term Trim). Are you able to attach your current Map file to a post? If not, PM me and we'll exchange e-mail addresses.
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Old 05-06-2019, 06:32 PM
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DeerHunter,

Laptop misbehaving. I use Macs for all online stuff and a Windows laptop for the Hydra only. I'll have to get connected and get an updated Long term trim off the car. I'll PM you when I get that figured out. I hope I can download it to a USB drive and get it on my Mac so I can send. I don't want to connect the Windows machine to the internet since it has no antivirus and I have no Windows savvy.

Paul
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:18 PM
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Paul, the LTT *.csv file will be handy in order to see fueling trends but it's the *.hyd file (File-->Save As) that I need to see. Once you save using your Windows machine, you can certainly offload them to a Mac with a USB key.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:11 AM
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I noticed on my Hydra that when I have LTT enabled it tries to pull too much fuel at low loads. I turned off LTT and just use the temp correction map with my fuel map and the AFR stays very steady no matter the weather. With the LTT enabled using the Hydra wideband the ECU was constantly trying to pull fuel not really sure why.
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Old 05-10-2019, 08:49 PM
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Laptop that I use to connect will not charge a battery or run with one in it. So I can connect to the Hydra but not leave the garage. I acquired a different laptop but cannot connect. It's a com port issue. Hope to resolve in a few days and be able to gather some useful info and get with you guys. I apprec the feedback to this point. In the garage, the Hydra software shows my AFR's about 1.5 points higher than the AEM gauge. At idle the software say 14.7 vs. the AEM at about 12.2-12.5
problem might be the gauge. New engine coming in about a week so I need to get a handle on the issue.

Paul
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Old 05-10-2019, 09:59 PM
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I had all kinds of issues getting my laptop to connect - same reason, com port issues. The solution was to buy the USB to serial adapter from FM.






You might be able to score one from a local retailer, Amazon or Coolgear.com, if FM won't get it to you quickly enough.
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:14 PM
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You should be able to pull LTT into the map without moving the car; after all, LTT is..well... long term.

I'm an additional vote for failing WBO2. With a new Hydra WBO2, run the car with WBO2 in LTT for 6 months (starting either in the high of summer or the cold of winter) and integrate the LTT into the map every month or so. Then pull the WBO2 and go open loop fuel. Replace the Hydra WBO2 with an AEM or something gauge based so you can watch it real time.

Put the Hydra WBO2 back in if you need to retune down the road.
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pmhellings View Post
Laptop that I use to connect will not charge a battery or run with one in it. So I can connect to the Hydra but not leave the garage. I acquired a different laptop but cannot connect. It's a com port issue. Hope to resolve in a few days and be able to gather some useful info and get with you guys. I apprec the feedback to this point. In the garage, the Hydra software shows my AFR's about 1.5 points higher than the AEM gauge. At idle the software say 14.7 vs. the AEM at about 12.2-12.5
problem might be the gauge. New engine coming in about a week so I need to get a handle on the issue.

Paul
My laptop is the same. Go to AutoZone and get a power inverter. Plug into the cig socket and you have a place to plug in the laptop
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:18 AM
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Andyfloyd
I considered that, but found a refurbed Acer for $100. problem is it is missing one file allowing it to communicate with the Com port. A friend is reinstalling g Windows today. Hopefully that will do it. if not, I'll go the inverter route.

Deer Hunter
Yes, I have that adapter. Came with the FM2 kit. I expect to have the laptop deal sorted over the weekend.

Sorry for starting the thread and not being able to follow through. I'm not driving the car while I get things sorted out. In the middle of a bathroom remodel in my house so that is taking away from Miata time. spent 3 hours yesterday evening putting software from FM on the "new" laptop hoping it was an error in loading the Nemesis software....
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:26 AM
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Getting Hydra to connect to my old *** laptop last year was a pain in the ***. Im running 2.5 and I had to find a laptop that still has XP running on it. Then it wouldnt connect and I tried a couple different serial cables, and finally found one that will work. Once connected its actually not all that bad. As much as people on MT.net hate on the Hydra it sure has worked out pretty well for me. My car runs like stock for the most part, except for the fact that it has 300whp lol.
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:09 PM
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Finally got laptop to connect ( needed drivers to enable Com Port ) I drove the car and did a short pull. AEM gauge showed 10-11 in boost then reverted to 17.8 - 18 then to - - - . Checked the catalog after the pull and found that the AFR's never varied from 14.6 or 14.7. Virtually no knock detected except for .04v during shift. I assume that the sensor that the Hydra is using to output to the computer is wrong?

I opened Long Term Trim and was able to view the file, but tried to save it in various forms, but nothing came thru as readable. Any tips on exporting this info to be something useable?

Sone of the cels were in red which, I assume is out of the norm or out of spec.
I don't really understand the Lamda and Stoichmetric stuff. Closed vs. Open Loop is a bit of a mystery as well. I used FM's base map and adjusted idle settings and PWIM things to get the car running properly. I adjusted thing and fuel by using test and tune at my local drag strip, conservatively adding timing and monitoring knock ( lack of it). Beyond that, the Hydra and car just behaved until recently. I have done the usual cleaning of grounds, calibrating the TPS and running the Hydra diagnostics. No issues found. Car runs fine although, aside from the pull I did to catalog, I stay pretty much out of boost. What's next idea wise? Deer Hunter any tips on exporting the long term trim map to be useable?

Thanks,
Paul
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:44 PM
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Paul, when you open the LTT window, you'll see a table similar to your fueling table. You Control-A (select all), then right-click and "Save as". The format to use is .csv, which is readable by Excel. I've replied to your PM, so you now have my e-mail address.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:58 AM
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An update on my situation. Once I got my "new" laptop talking to the Hydra I did a pull and discovered my AFR's were flatlined according to the Hydra. My AEM gauge showed otherwise. DeerHunter prompted me to export my Long Term Trim file and send it to him. He gave me the opinion that the Hydra was pulling a LOT of fuel. Once he pointed that out, I was able to wrap my brain around it and see what he meant. I knew SOMETHING had changed dramatically and assumed it must be the Wideband sensor. After some confusion on my part about WHICH of the 4 sensors in my exhaust system it was, I was able to pull the sensor and discover that it is not heating up and will not calibrate.

At this point I'm in search of a new sensor and have researched via the old "Sticky" about replacements. I've also contacted Nemesis about a proprietary replacement, since FM no longer sells the part. I'd prefer to not get ripped off, so if Nemesis quotes a ridiculous price I'll use the info from the sticky to source a replacement. I'll update the thread once I've cured the problem.

On another note, FM's tech support was helpful after verifying that I bought the Hydra from them. Good to know that they still support their product to some degree.

Thanks to the community, particularly DeerHunter, for making the info available.

Paul
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:59 AM
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No problem Paul - glad to be able to help.

Further information in case anyone else is searching for an answer to similar problems in the future: LTT (Long Term Trim) is a fantastic feature of v2.7, as it will allow your car to self-tune to OEM-levels of drivability (ideally the LTT values should be occasionally integrated into your fueling table and the LTT values zeroed). There's a big caveat though, in that LTT may introduce some weird values in the boost rows. Mine, at one point, was continually pulling fuel under boost. A simple solution, as long as your fuelling table is good to begin with, is to set LTT so that it only applies trims to cells in your AFR table that are set to stoich (14.7). To change to this setting:
Settings-->AFR Target Settings
Under Left Module Sensor Source, set the top drop-down box to "Left internal wideband sensor 14.7 AFR"
Done and problem solved.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:53 PM
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Thanks to you both - so very little support for the Hydra now that I am happy to see and be part of a small engaged community of users supporting each other.
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Old 05-22-2019, 11:05 AM
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Update on this thread. After solving connectivity problems with "new" used laptop, I was pretty sure my problem was with the wide band sensor. So I decided to pull the sensor and calibrate it according to FM's installation manual. the "sensor disconnected" calibration went fine, but when I went into the calibration with sensor connected but in open air, the **** began to go sideways again. FM's manual states that "Miata batteries are weak, and the sensor calibration requires a lot of power, be sure to hook up to a battery charger". Made sense, since without the engine running my battery voltage was only 11.7 ( but would go to the target of 13.7 when started) So, I get out my trusty battery charger and select the 2 amp setting, but the battery voltage was only about 11.8. Not enough to heat up the sensor, I assumed. changed the charger to the 5 amp setting. same deal. I gave up for the moment and decided to ohm out the sensor while the battery charged up a little. Sure enough, the sensor that should have read about 4.5 ohms was reading a dead short. Okay. I suss out the proper sensor to use, thanks to the sticky in this forum and fire off the order.

By the way, FM no longer sells the sensors and referred me to "Phil" at Nemesis. I called him, no answer, left a voicemail, no response. Sent an e-mail on the 15th and got a response on the 20th that he'd be happy to send me a new sensor for only $275. I had already received my new sensor from Amazon by the time he returned my e-mail.

New sensor had different connector, as expected, but wires were same color as the original Hydra sensor, so I carefully soldered them to the Hydra sensor and figured it was good. connected the sensor, connected laptop, checked battery voltage and it was 3v! WTF!

Did some research on getting a new AGM battery and discovered that you can only charge an AGM battery at 1 amp or less, according to what I read. I had killed my battery.

Fast forward....have to get my car to my buddy's shop where we are going to pull the motor in anticipation of installing the new one from Trackspeed Engineering which is built and shipping in the next day or so. I put the new sensor in after "calibrating" it in the middle of the calibration slider and zero out my long term trims. I assume that, driving carefully I'll be able to get to the shop OK. Car won't turn over, even with charger on starting boost. New Marathon AGM battery might arrive tomorrow or maybe next Tuesday according to Battery Depot.

This whole thing has turned into an ordeal. My plan, at this point is to try to get the car started and get it to my friends shop and proceed as planned. it new battery doesn't give me enough voltage to calibrated the sensor and get me up and running, I'll kind of be out of options. Given lack of support for the Hydra I may have to get a Megasquirt and start this whole mess over. FM DID respond to me when I called them (they don't really respond to e-mails for a week or so) and told me that, "yeah, it might be the sensor, no we don't sell them, yeah the map for your stock VVT engine will be fine with the new one 9.5 CR vs.8.5 CR won't really matter. if you turn up the boost it'll probably be fine, just make sure to get it tuned".

Moral of the story. While my Hydra has been really good for a couple of years....it isn't so good right now and if you have a problem with yours, you're pretty much left to your own devices and the support from fellow Hydra folks on this forum. My story may end happily, but today doesn't feel so great.

Paul
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Old 05-22-2019, 12:03 PM
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Paul, none of your issues, other than the requirement for a specific WB replacement, are really Hydra-related, so I wouldn't be thinking about jumping ship to MS quite yet. A working battery should allow you to calibrate your new O2 sensor and LTT will tune the non-boost rows very quickly for your new engine. You will probably get fine numbers for the boosted rows as well, but I would check them frequently to ensure they make sense (and to smooth them out). Once in the ballpark, a dyno tuning session will be the icing on the cake and you can then turn off LTT in the non-stoich rows.

Your AGM battery probably isn't dead, BTW. I had the same symptoms once and was able to resuscitate mine using the following procedure (Option #2):
Bring Back Your Dead!

Finally, you spliced the new sensor to the old harness by soldering. Hopefully you used heat shrink tubing to keep the elements out plus I would suggest putting some kind of outer shell on the wiring that runs by your transmission to the downpipe. Grounding out the WB is what kills it, which is what happened to me a while back too.
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