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so hydra charges for firmware?
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...62#post3204662
I know that motec, haltech, accel, 034efi, autronic, and TEC do not charge for firmware. For $2k, i think free firmware updates are justified. another nguyen for MS. |
You forgot AEM in your list of don't chargers.
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apparently FM is an Apple user, who enjoys paying for updates...its their intellectual property. lulz
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Do you have to send them them the box or do they send you a file? If its the latter just throw money together and order 1, then spread it out amongst yourselves.
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Logistics, payments, and legalities aside, I'd like to know what improvements/differences exist in the newest hardware vs the previous.
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Originally Posted by Saml01
(Post 273572)
Do you have to send them them the box or do they send you a file? If its the latter just throw money together and order 1, then spread it out amongst yourselves.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273565)
apparently FM is an Apple user, who enjoys paying for updates...its their intellectual property. lulz
With a lot of software you don't "own" it but lease it, year after year. Keep up the annual maintenance and you can run the software with "free" updates. As soon as it lapses, you no longer have the right to use the software ... and in a lot of cases the software self destructs. Nothing new here. Apple doesn't charge for updates, major revisions yes. Same as MS, Adobe and the rest of the commercial software vendors. Do you think it reasonable that a one time purchase of software would entitle you to every release after that? I'm assuming that this is a major change in the Hydra Firmware, and not just a bunch of bug fixes. If there is a significant amount of new features and functionality it is reasonable they are charging for it. |
Originally Posted by Saml01
(Post 273572)
Do you have to send them them the box or do they send you a file? If its the latter just throw money together and order 1, then spread it out amongst yourselves.
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 273578)
According to Jeremy's first post in that thread: "You'll need to call us for a RMA# before sending us the unit. Thanks http://forum.miata.net/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif"
So I take it no one codes their own firmware are has just ripped it from the chip? |
Originally Posted by jayc72
(Post 273581)
allthatbullshit.txt
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bug fixes should be free of course. adding features is different. it's up to the company.
i love the "why didn't you tell us when we bought ours a month ago?" guy. because they would have lost your sale, jackass! whatever--rapid development cycles are rapid development cycles. I can bitch that I paid 2800 for a 34" tube widescreen tv 6 years ago all i want but it wont put a 50" plasma in my living room. once hydra figures out how to make firmware-only changes that don't require hardware changes, they can probably release new firmware for free more easily. that's how it works with the other guys. they dont change their hardware every 3 days. |
At $2000, they can give complimentary software updates. Apparently I'm a cheapass, which is convenient because I went with MS.
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I agree. Its an ecu, not a pc. We all have enough ongoing expenses with our cars that that its just a lame thing to do. Now that I know this, dont think anyone I know is going to be buying one.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273584)
no one else charges for it.
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Originally Posted by Zarniwoop42
(Post 273591)
I agree. Its an ecu, not a pc. We all have enough ongoing expenses with our cars that that its just a lame thing to do. Now that I know this, dont think anyone I know is going to be buying one.
Originally Posted by kotomile
(Post 273593)
Exactly. The MSPNP is $1200 cheaper and firmware updates are free.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273584)
no one else charges for it.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273596)
"You should have gone with an M62 and pcpro because all these people have it and it works." People act like its a miaracle that I've been driving a car on MS for 6-months.
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Originally Posted by jayc72
(Post 273598)
Once again you prove that you are a fucking idiot.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273601)
Watch yourself you little punk bitch queer beta male canadian trash. Do you fucking know who you're talking to right now? God damn I bet you're some fucking skinny ass ------ who's never touched a boob in his life. You come say that sort of shit to me and I'll fuck you up three times before you hit the mother fucking ground. Im the type of person that brings a weapon to a party if im planning on fighting. I fight to win no matter what it takes.Im not afraid to yell that's my purse, i don't know you. Im NOT afraid to kick someone as hard as i can in the nuts, FROM BEHIND. Yah thats right. I would cheap shot the fuck out of any of you, mother fuckers, and then id stomp on your face while you were on the ground crying like a bitch. Oh, and if you need anymore favors, call Obama, maybe he'll give you socialist pussies something for free, like our GDP.
+1 for Hustler |
For extra $$$ I'd certainly welcome some updated features to my link. $100 would seem like a pittance to get Launch Control for example.
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Originally Posted by J.T.
(Post 273605)
:bowrofl: Another one owned by hustler. I find that 90% of the threads you post in are worth reading just for the fact that you probably e-raped someones face
+1 for Hustler |
Originally Posted by jayc72
(Post 273608)
For extra $$$ I'd certainly welcome some updated features to my link. $100 would seem like a pittance to get Launch Control for example.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273601)
Watch yourself you little punk bitch queer beta male canadian trash. Do you fucking know who you're talking to right now? God damn I bet you're some fucking skinny ass ------ who's never touched a boob in his life. You come say that sort of shit to me and I'll fuck you up three times before you hit the mother fucking ground. Im the type of person that brings a weapon to a party if im planning on fighting. I fight to win no matter what it takes.Im not afraid to yell that's my purse, i don't know you. Im NOT afraid to kick someone as hard as i can in the nuts, FROM BEHIND. Yah thats right. I would cheap shot the fuck out of any of you, mother fuckers, and then id stomp on your face while you were on the ground crying like a bitch. Oh, and if you need anymore favors, call Obama, maybe he'll give you socialist pussies something for free, like our GDP.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273612)
I think it its as simple as coding the algorithms, then why not offer it at no extra charge to enhance the quality of the product in general?
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Originally Posted by jayc72
(Post 273613)
You are so predictable and boring. You fail at originality. This is all you've got and it's getting really old, kind of pathetic really.
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Originally Posted by J.T.
(Post 273605)
:bowrofl: Another one owned by hustler. I find that 90% of the threads you post in are worth reading just for the fact that you probably e-raped someones face
+1 for Hustler |
Originally Posted by jayc72
(Post 273614)
Depends on how much development it takes to add the functionality. Time is money right? I'm not saying that they should be charging, but I still don't think they are doing anything wrong.
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And that's the great thing about choices. You don't have to buy a hydra and pay for updates.
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You have a point, Joe, however in this case it is in fact a completely new platform. It would be comparable to going from Win 98 to Win XP, and not comparable from going from say XP Service pack 1 to Service pack 2. Personally I think they should have named it Hydra 3.0, since that's really what it is. I'm pretty much done with the first run of our manual for it. I just have to figure out the autotuning feature and write it out. (It is completely different and more involved.) Once that's done we should be good to go on shipping. |
Originally Posted by kotomile
(Post 273593)
Exactly. The MSPNP is $1200 cheaper and firmware updates are free.
Different methodologies, unix vs windows. Same thing. |
well if its new hardware, then it makes sense. I think it sucks for the people who bought ECM's yesterday though...lol.
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Originally Posted by Saml01
(Post 273624)
They are free for different reasons. MS is all open source, so everyone contributes and its a joint effort so not as difficult to generate new code. While, I guess, the hydra requires paying people a salary to innovate and improve it.
Different methodologies, unix vs windows. Same thing. |
I think this is stupid unless the are sending them a complete new board.
I remember keeping my old link thru firmware changes because I did not want to spend the cash on a new chip. |
the real question their potential customers should be asking is:
will I be fucked when the next version rolls out? the answer: probably. almost positively. they did it with 2.17. they did it with 2.5. they will do it with 2.6 when the next version is out. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 273635)
the real question their potential customers should be asking is:
will I be fucked when the next version rolls out? the answer: probably. almost positively. they did it with 2.17. they did it with 2.5. they will do it with 2.6 when the next version is out. |
Originally Posted by Saml01
(Post 273624)
They are free for different reasons. MS is all open source, so everyone contributes and its a joint effort so not as difficult to generate new code. While, I guess, the hydra requires paying people a salary to innovate and improve it.
Different methodologies, unix vs windows. Same thing. Hydra: pay $2000, then pay extra for a firmware upgrade. MSPNP: pay $800, free firmware upgrades, free middle connectors, etc. DIYautotune will have my loyalty because they don't nickel-n-dime me after the initial purchase. |
Different business models featuring different products in different markets. Sorry, no matter how much you compare a MS to a Hydra, they're only comparable in the way a speed3 is comparable to a S63AMG.
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 273639)
Different business models featuring different products in different markets. Sorry, no matter how much you compare a MS to a Hydra, they're only comparable in the way a speed3 is comparable to a S63AMG.
Fair enough. How about comparing it then to: Haltech, AEM, Autronic, etc.? If Hydra was competing in a market where every competitor charged for their updates then I would understand but that is not the case. To me as a customer, this doesn't make sense. Y8s mentioned a guy who'd bought his 1 month before. I surely wouldn't like to be in his shoes. :mad: |
If you want to compare Hydra to similarly priced and featured (though not similarly supported) ECUs, I'm OK with that. I'm just tired of the MS > Hydra threads which are so totally not true. MS is a better value. Hydra is a better piece of equipment. I swear to the lords of kobol that if unwarranted and ignorant Hydra bashing continues, the ban stick is going to get a work out.
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 273646)
If you want to compare Hydra to similarly priced and featured (though not similarly supported) ECUs, I'm OK with that. I'm just tired of the MS > Hydra threads which are so totally not true. MS is a better value. Hydra is a better piece of equipment. I swear to the lords of kobol that if unwarranted and ignorant Hydra bashing continues, the ban stick is going to get a work out.
I totally understand your point of view. One question only: I'm running around with an AEM (shitty support) but as an EMS; what can the Hydra offer me that the AEM doesn't? BTW, I just installed the newest AEM firmware and it was free. |
Originally Posted by Rafa
(Post 273643)
To me as a customer, this doesn't make sense. Y8s mentioned a guy who'd bought his 1 month before. I surely wouldn't like to be in his shoes. :mad:
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FWIW, I don't think anyone believes the Hydra to be inferior to the MS, but it is a drastic difference in price, coupled with the nickel-n-dime stuff that is irritating.
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Jerry showed me a picture today of a 1,600 hp camaro, that runs a megasquirt. If it can run a MS, I sure as hell will never need a $2k ecu.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273596)
There is enough of a fear factor (in Dallas at least) that MSpnp is a big bird nest of black boxes and mystery inside the case, which supposedly will never work right and somehow blows up engine unsuspectingly. Someone asked me last night, "are you comfortable putting 'gray market, fly by night' engine management on such a nice engine and turbo system?" People still think the more money you spend, the more you get. People in Dallas still think PC-Pro is superior to MS for reliability. I don't get it. Last night I also hear that my turbo car is going to overheat on the track, break studs, and I won't be able to get it tuned and blow it up. "You should have gone with an M62 and pcpro because all these people have it and it works." People act like its a miaracle that I've been driving a car on MS for 6-months.
I thought about buying Hydra long and hard before I made my decision to get MS because I was worried about efficacy, which I now understand was not a concern. There's alot more local support for those guys for running M62/superchargers. They don't have to blaze any trails and there's more security in that. Chris |
Originally Posted by Stealth97
(Post 273667)
Jerry showed me a picture today of a 1,600 hp camaro, that runs a megasquirt. If it can run a MS, I sure as hell will never need a $2k ecu.
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Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 273652)
The new version costs $100 more than the old version. The upgrade fee is $100. The dude has 0 room to bitch.
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I wonder if the new version works well with Vista..... if so that would be worth my hundred bucks.
Perhaps a map switching function that's easy to use? I'll have to wait and see what the advantages are to the new box before I go plunking down a hundred or more dollars for an update, not to mention the downtime for the car. |
Originally Posted by Pitlab77
(Post 273636)
sounds like the hydra is pretty sh#$y if they have to keep fixing it like this
perhaps you've heard of widows xp service pack 3 |
Originally Posted by JayMX5
(Post 273711)
I'm the dude, so here's my stance on it. It's not about the money at all. This is the engine management I want to run on my 01 and my build will be complete around the end of July. I have been slowly acquiring pieces over the past 6 months or so and this was one of them. When I made the purchase I stated to them that my build wouldn't be finished for another couple of months. This was told to FM specifically so I could avoid something like this. So, when the customer is told by the vendor specifically there's no reason to wait a couple months, I expect it to be the truth. I'm pissed that I wasn't told and I have to go through the hassle of sending it back to them just so they can send it to someone different to get the update done. It's a stupid gripe to have, but oh well.
I'd be pissed too. :mad: |
Originally Posted by J.T.
(Post 273676)
x2 Megasquirt is a pretty powerful device. From just some quick reading(and I mean really quick) about the hydra, vs. my more extensive reading about the MS, they look like they pretty much offer the same stuff. So I'll just ask it, what does the hydra offer that the MS doesn't, specifically though, id it enough to justify almost $1300?
Youre gonna have two camps arguing and no one will ever budge. |
Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 273557)
another nguyen for MS.
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Originally Posted by JayMX5
(Post 273711)
I'm the dude, so here's my stance on it. It's not about the money at all. This is the engine management I want to run on my 01 and my build will be complete around the end of July. I have been slowly acquiring pieces over the past 6 months or so and this was one of them. When I made the purchase I stated to them that my build wouldn't be finished for another couple of months. This was told to FM specifically so I could avoid something like this. So, when the customer is told by the vendor specifically there's no reason to wait a couple months, I expect it to be the truth. I'm pissed that I wasn't told and I have to go through the hassle of sending it back to them just so they can send it to someone different to get the update done. It's a stupid gripe to have, but oh well.
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Originally Posted by J.T.
(Post 273676)
x2 Megasquirt is a pretty powerful device. From just some quick reading(and I mean really quick) about the hydra, vs. my more extensive reading about the MS, they look like they pretty much offer the same stuff. So I'll just ask it, what does the hydra offer that the MS doesn't, specifically though, id it enough to justify almost $1300?
Full sequential fuel, full sequntial ignition, 3D VVT control, super huge resolution tables. Is this describing MS or Hydra? :giggle: |
Originally Posted by JayMX5
(Post 273711)
I'm the dude, so here's my stance on it. It's not about the money at all. This is the engine management I want to run on my 01 and my build will be complete around the end of July. I have been slowly acquiring pieces over the past 6 months or so and this was one of them. When I made the purchase I stated to them that my build wouldn't be finished for another couple of months. This was told to FM specifically so I could avoid something like this. So, when the customer is told by the vendor specifically there's no reason to wait a couple months, I expect it to be the truth. I'm pissed that I wasn't told and I have to go through the hassle of sending it back to them just so they can send it to someone different to get the update done. It's a stupid gripe to have, but oh well.
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Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92
(Post 273672)
For alot of those guys it comes down to tuning. They can get it street tuned very quick and never have to worry about it. They don't wanna hassle with it, or with squeaking out a couple more ponies.
There's alot more local support for those guys for running M62/superchargers. They don't have to blaze any trails and there's more security in that. Chris |
Originally Posted by Ben
(Post 273800)
The Hydra does tons of things the MS doesn't. Do a little research and you'll quickly see how the Hydra has pretty much unlimited I/O where the MS is basically tapped out.
Full sequential fuel, full sequntial ignition, 3D VVT control, super huge resolution tables. Is this describing MS or Hydra? :giggle: and most of my complaints about the hydra (UI and logging) have been very nicely dealt with. and it's STILL dirt cheap compared to a MoTeC. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 273902)
and most of my complaints about the hydra (UI and logging) have been very nicely dealt with. and it's STILL dirt cheap compared to a MoTeC.
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Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 273902)
I'm gonna side with ben on the hydra vs. ms debate. the ms can't even do sequential injection.
and most of my complaints about the hydra (UI and logging) have been very nicely dealt with. and it's STILL dirt cheap compared to a MoTeC. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 273750)
not fixing, improving.
perhaps you've heard of widows xp service pack 3 and vista sucks |
The new software is miles ahead of the 2.5. From what I recall, there is actually hardware modification that goes into the 2.6 box, not just a software update.
You guys can bitch and bitch and bitch.. but if you weren't ever going to buy one, where does all that bitching get you? |
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