Am I Crazy?
 

Or do the latest Mustangs seem like a pretty good deal? The V8 with the track package and recaro seats comes in right at $30k new. Sure it is fat, and $30k is a lot of money for a "Stang", but looking at what you get, it's quite impressive.

The reviews are favorable as well.

The 5.0 is pretty badass. The car looks fucking good. The only downside is the shit interior. $30k for a new car that isn't a Versa seems to be the norm. The closest thing I could find in price, performance and options is the 370z.

The NC miata is cool and all, but even for the weight it is so damn slow.

Unless you go European, the only two options are the 370z and Mustang if you want something new and unmolested.

So what am I missing here? Did Ford make a decent car?

This is a goddamn good looking car:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1401983034

Mmm recaros
http://forums.themustangsource.com/a...stang-gt-3.jpg

I just types up a huge post about how much I hate my '11 mustang after 3 years, and I got fucking logged out. Fuck my fucking life.

Recap:
Its heavy.
Shifter sucks (It feels like a stick stuck in a vat of dildo rubber).
No 2nd gear when cold, unless you double clutch it.
Stability control is to prevent retards from crashing, not for going fast. So when you drive it hard without remember to turn it off, it turns it a chaotic shitstorm of seemingly randomly applying different brakes. It has put me into crazy high-frequency oscillation/tank slappers when driving well within the cars limits.
Steering is vague and inspires little confidence.
Engine ticks from the bottom end every time you change the oil. The dealer puts some friction modifier in the oil to make it go away but they wont tell me what it is. Pretty sure its going to blow up one day.
Water pump went out already.
One of my axle seals blew, there is gear oil all over one wheel, and the differential is whining.

The plan is to trade it in on a slow hatchback with a good feeling shifter. Probably an Impreza, Mazda3, or a '15 Fit.

No, not crazy. I haven't driven one, my main concern would be the same for any Mustang, Camaro, or other retro muscle car, which is that it'd feel like I'm driving from inside a tank. AKA: zero visibility.

But to compare build prices:

Mustang, you get 300hp/29mpg: $23,180. Couldn't find an LSD option here.

370z, you get 332hp/26mpg: $33,830

MX-5, you get 167hp/28mpg: $27,700

Edit: I was going to edit this saying it's hard to beat the Mustang's pricing and engine performance, but after reading FTB's review above....nope nope nope nope.

These prices are all "out the door", which means after delivery, MSRP. From what I've heard you could possibly knock a couple grand off the Z and 'stang, but not more than a few hundred off the MX-5. Also, they're all freeway MPG. City MPGs are just sad.

FRT, maybe "old" is a better word than "crazy".

Bottom line:

The non-American car company which competes directly with this car pays for the labor and materials to build their car, plus a reasonable amount for some retirees which negotiated such benefits as a condition of hiring.

The American car company has to pay for all of the same things AND they have to pay the union retirees 5x as much as the average working American plus benefits

In order to be cost competitive, the American car company has to skimp somewhere, and they're surely not skimping on giving raises to retirees. The big 3 currently do not have the money to invest in reliability of their herds, and they know that their bottom line doesn't rest on the resale value of their cars. You pay them money for a car, they make sure it runs for 36,000 miles, and that's the end of their obligation to you.

The horror stories I've heard from direct contacts buying new "big 3" cars in the last 3 years is enough to keep me away from them for a long time. The golden age of the American Car ended sometime in the early nineties. The golden age of the foreign car began sometime in the early 2000s. Between the early nineties and the early 2000s, there are a few good reliable cars, that's a timeframe requiring diligent research before buying an unknown car.

Tesla is an American car company. I would buy a Tesla. You would get far more value per dollar out of a Tesla than you would a Mustang. They are sexier too.

I wish I could buy a brand new '96 Civic EX, right now.
I would gladly give up my 400hp V8 to have a nimble, gas sipping, reliable, little coupe with a shifter that feels like a well oiled bolt-action rifle.

Cars just suck now.

Ford makes awesome trucks. I have two Expeditions (and two Miatas). Back when Ford's small cars and trucks were rebadged Mazdas, they were really good too.

Already given up on the 2002?

Yes you are crazy.

/thread

The '15 is an all new chassis and interior though yes? IRS, which had better be good considering they made the last live axle fairly competent. Better styling, etc. This thread is the first time I have heard people talk about the 4 cam 5.0 or the DI V6 negatively, though I have not been looking.

Test drove a '13 V6 with my Mom when she was car shopping. Its felt big, but it did have a nice turning radius, and it soaked up mid corner bumps that a low mileage '10ish car did not like at all. In fact its was a pretty nice driver. Did not feel like 300HP to me, but then all these modern cars are heavy as hell. It did make decent TQ and hold on to it up the revs which was nice. Main-line V6s have only made sense in the last 5-10 years IMHO. Before that they were almost universally a horrible combination of V8 mileage with warmed over 4 banger power. The 3.7L Mercedes/Jeep/Dodge engine is a great example of that. These new ones are actually fun to drive. The interior was blah for looks, but then her BRZ interior is also fairly plain, as is most everything below 35K that is not a VW product.

Just wait for what V8 Roadsters has in development and is going to release in a few months.
You will be clamoring for a good used NB.

No, in fact I've made a ton of progress. But I don't want to be racking up tons of miles on a car that will be practically new when I'm done with it, and will only increase in value the better it is cared for.

I need a daily when I graduate in a year, and I want something new, or used but in absolute mint condition with no tampering or wear. Starting my search now because I hate every new car out, and all the good old cars are $50k or have been fucked with so extensively that it would takes years to sort.

I'm so sick of slow stock. I don't want to put half the cars price back in to it to make it fast. A miata (NC) would be nice, but they are expensive for what you get, and of course, slow.

I guess I could get a nice NB, and have a good shop drop a V8 in it and have the best of both worlds. Any little issues with cars these days makes me go crazy though, so it would have to be OEM-like. I am getting old.

Its nice being able to blast passed slow traffic at half throttle without downshifting, but turbo does the same thing.
I love the Coyote engine, but everything else about the car ruins it.

Im just going to get a slow-mobile, meanwhile Im building a turbo ready Honda longblock which Im going to drop into a civic (once I buy one) and that will satisfy my need for speed. Plus it wont feel like a battleship.

I believe he's referring to this
http://gmpowertrain.com/2014_images/...dillac_cts.jpg

320hp, 35mpg, flex fuel, 11.5:1 CR, 6-speed option, etc. etc. etc.

Oh, and as kind of a side note, GM has started building a 420hp/430lb-ft twin turbo version of the engine for MY14 cars...

Camaro, yes. Tank. Like driving through a viewport.

Mustang, surprisingly airy.

BP is better :party:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402012471

Paced with a fully cammo'd what i'm guessing to be a 2016 cobra. Basically this.
I've been seeing these for months now, somehow it's a big deal on the internet all of a sudden.

I was along side of him in the NA until he made me look silly. A simple revmatch downshift and he was gone. Up onto ford road then into the Ford HQ. I must admit, it sounded awesome i'd buy one just to be loud and obnoxious like everyone else around here.

370z seems like the only option if you want fast, well put together rwd sports car.

lol I take it you don't like it? I always double take the newer model mustangs on the road, they look pretty damn good. Plus, not like the NA or NB is exactly a looker...

too heavy. they're only 250lbs lighter than the v8 mustang, and you don't get back seats.


I've driven my Dad's 350z on track- it felt big, heavy and understeered a lot, although compared to Miata everything feels heavy.

Why not 'vette?

Starting price of $53k... That is pretty much the main reason.

Nope, i think the retro mustang looks horrible. Way to heavy to be a sports car, soft body, horrible suspension even when upgraded. Only good thing is the giant engine..

The na or nb may not be a mclaren F1 however it flows together, its designed great overall while the mustang it looks liek they ripped off bunch of stuff from the old design and slapped it together.

Might as well get a corvette.

The 2007-2009 mustang I agree with you. But the latest body design improved a ton. Not saying it is the best looking car, but I really like the look of it. The front end is worlds better. A miata with decent wheels, a hard top and a bit lower looks good, but stock it ranks somewhere around dodge neon and that chevy milk truck thing they make.

Just buy an LS FD or an NSX and be done with it.

lolz at haters complaining about the live axle suspension and stuff when it's obvious they haven't driven one.

Go look at what Terry Fair is doing with his 2011 GT in NASA. Instake/exhaust/tune = 430whp, you can fit huge meats on the car, he's destroying people in his class.

I loved my 2013 Track Pack GT. I only got rid of it because it was taking money away from the track car.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402060304

It is a huge car though

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402060304

Agreed. They are pretty cool.

Around here a clean c6 is 25-30, and a absolutely love c6's

And its way better in every way

That said, a guy I know got a '14 Mustang GT recently and is raving about his. Has all the bells and whistles, brembos, recaros, etc but set him back something like 40k.

They drop in price like crazy. I've seen them in the low 20's already. If it were my money, I'd buy a mildly used one and save a ton of cash.

If you're going that route I guess

Maybe you care more about straight-line acceleration, but pretty much the only new car I'd be interested in is a Toyubaru.

I don't think I could ever actually buy a Mustang. I was just browsing around considering all options when I was pleasantly surprised. I feel that most Mustang owners are probably biased, and talk up their car because they want it to be something it's not. But who knows.

I want something that is fun on the highway. So yea, straight line performance is more important than handling for what I'm looking for.

You should buy mine. Please. Take it.

Past cars include swapped E30s, Speed 3, 350Z, NA track car, NC daily, and the Mustang.

I don't even own it anymore. It was a beast. I'm seriously considering picking up another one in a few years. The lighter, stiffer chassis and IRS of the S550 is hugely tempting.

I have so much want for a C6 Z06.

Vorshlag has done a ton of development on the new 'stang. They have a very long, build thread on their site: Link (and it's on corner-carvers, which is (was?) the de-facto mustang road-race site). It's a pretty good read.

Would daily:
http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-E...SC_3885-X3.jpg

However, I've driven a 2012 and (brother-in-law's) 2008, and I just don't like the newer cars. Too big, too much plastic, and I hate the vestigial plastic vents everywhere.

In another life, I had a 90GT for a couple of years. It was a good time, but the crazy rear suspension geometry tried to kill me too many times. I even had a turbofan-ish excursion into some evergreens once :rofl::rofl: (but I was only 18).

As long as I'm talking about Fox Bodies, I have been in love with this car since I first saw it in CarCraft years ago:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402065130

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402065130

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402065130

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402065130

It's actually a good article, check it out:
1986 Ford Mustang - 5.0 Mustang Aiming For The 12s - Car Craft Magazine

I would daily the fuck out of this thing. If I ever found this exact car for sale I would actually have to think about selling the miata or building a bigger garage.

/threadjack

And its not like Fair is ignorant about other chassis. Didn't he have a lot to do with the first really bolt-in LS swaps into E36s? I would love on of those.

A part of me have always loved both Mustangs and Camaros. I test drove a 2001 Z-28 Camaro just a few days ago. The car was an absolute bucket, but with some pretty good aftermarket parts. When I drove it, I just loved it. Visibility was very good, it had great power, and it was actually pretty nimble when driving it.

If you spend any time at the drag strip at all, both cars are just hard to beat. I get it that most of the members here are not fond of drag racing. I just happen to love it.

I'll always be grateful that Ford stuffed a 302 into the early-80s Fox body. It was the move that lifted us out of the Great Car Depression of the late-70s/early-80s. Many of you weren't even alive back then, but the 302 Mustang was a big reason why cars got fun again. The Miata in 1989 was another significant milestone. I'll never forget how awful those late-70s smog cars were. At the nadir, I think the Corvette made 180-190 at the crank -- barely enough to move a disco ball.

My 1977 'Vette was rated at 180HP, and I think that may have been pretty generous. That thing was a pig (but the huge secondaries were fun!).

So... this is either a new thing i haven't heard of concerning maybe... the new 5.0?


Or the GM V6 swap that also seems like it would be the tits.

Terry IS a smart guy. Too bad he's an annoying and petulant man-child.

Yeah, it was almost a factory made hot rod. Take a 4 banger econo car, stuff a V-8 under the hood, beef up the suspension a little, and add big, meaty tires. All for way less than you could do it yourself. I think I paid less than 15 grand for my Mustang GT in the late 1990's.

Sure, it still plowed through the corners like the other Mustangs (and, to be honest, most cars of the day), but it sure went like a bat out of hell when you floored it.

Would it even fit? The Coyote is HUGE with those DOHC heads vs an LSx

Pretty sure it was the GM DI 3.6 he was talking about. :rofl:

What the....I don't......why.....

Light, compact, makes good power.

And probably fits without a lot of tunnel mods. I'm following the project with a lot of interest. Did you see that torque curve? No curve at all. What a dream it would be on track.

Coyote big.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402084025

Im not sure I really get the 3.6 swap either. Doesn't sound like a sports car motor to me.
Maybe I dont like it because its a 90 degree V6. Its a compromised design.

LFX is a 60° V6. 7200 redline. Flat 275 ft-lbs. Overhead cams. Direct injection. All aluminum. 340 pounds all-up. Etc.

Seems like a really good swap for a BP.

Looks like we could bolt turbos directly to the head....

Here's a stock photo of the same engine, as used in a couple of the 2014 cadillac lineup...

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402086163

designated LF3 instead of LFX, but from what I read, it's the same footprint.

Not sure if the LFX 6-speed will be able to handle the LF3. That trans is only rated at about 350 ft-lb. The LF3 is only mated to automatics in the cadillac lineup. It seems like GM did everything they could to make the footprint of this thing compact.

I have a brand new 2013 Miata Grand Touring with premium and suspension packages on my lot that I can sell for over $5k off MSRP. I can sell new 2014's for about $3k off. Discounts are as strong on the Miata as on about anything else out there.

As for the Mustang... It's a freaking sick, sick car. That 5.0 is heroic, and sounds perfect. The shifting really isn't bad, and the car does shrink as you drive it fast IMO. I think it would be fun on a road race course, not so much an autox course.

Then again... I drove it once. It's huge, and MPG isn't great. Sweet car though, and great looking too IMO.

Oh snap
I thought we were talking about something like this:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402087303

I guess this is the rebirth of the LX5?
Maybe GM is going to try to be with the times again. I always thought the old northstar/shortstar were pretty cool engines, but I guess all the good ol' boys cried so much they had to keep making OHV bullshit.

The 5.0 Mustang I priced out was 28k with the track package. According to the information I have that is about $6300 off MSRP.

Track Package:
Tires: P255/40R19 Summer-Only, Tire Mobility Kit Replaces mini spare tire, Aggressive Suspension Tuning, Engine Oil Cooler, TORSEN Helical Differential w/3.73 Axle Ratio, 14" Brembo Vented Front Rotors, Brembo 4-piston calipers, Wheels: 19" x 9.0" Dark Stainless Painted Aluminum, Unique Electronic Stability Control (ESC) Tuning, 11.8" Vented Rear Rotors, Boss 302 Radiator

With that said, I still think the Miata Club is the only real choice. Even though it is slow.

Yeah definitely. Old, complex DOHC engines with revvy powerbands and a penchant for head gaskets due to stretched head bolts from a failed design are so much better than the simpler pushrod motors making way more torque and power with better fuel economy. :facepalm:

Edit to add quote for conversation continuity

Now you understand my view on BPs. :giggle::brain:

I have no idea who you are talking to or what you are talking about.

He's talking about Northstars, which.... were cool. But sucked.

Indeed.

I added FTB's quote to clarify.

Link to LFX info:

http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lfx/

The one to get would be out of a wrecked Camaro -- setup for RWD with an M6.

Like I said, seems like a pretty cool swap.

The real question with any swap path is the driveline.

The whole K24 thing is awesome because you can use cheap/easy/available stuff. And probably not break it, and haul ass on track.

The LSXs and 5.0s are great, but they are so pricey because of the transmissions and diffs. T56s cost more than what I paid for my NA. They are even expensive used/beat up. T5s probably wont hold up to an LSX, and frankly a stockish 5.0 is not all that much more powerful than a basic turbo BP.

If the LFX has a cheap, durable readily available manual trans, then it'll dominate. But that may not be the case. And looking at the future, probably we will not see that happen anymore. 3 pedal setups are going to go the way of the dinosaur. Right along with traditional gas engine cars.