Any guitar collectors in here?
 

83' Kramer Baretta guitar - 1 owner - Original - w/case - eBay (item 110461936435 end time Dec-04-09 12:19:38 PST)

Just wanted to share my auction for my brothers Kramer Baretta with you guys. Its being talked about on the Kramer forum and I was tempted to post over there but I figured that would just be trolling on their forum. "Hey guys, nice guitars, want to buy mine!?"

Anyways this auction has got more attention than anything I've listed in the past 7 years. I cant believe how many emails I got about it. Some guys trying to buy it for $750, $1000, some even offered more than the $2k reserve. My brother told me $2k reserve and let it ride. So far so good and its going to end with a winner tomorrow!

Any of you guys into guitars and know anything about this particular one? They are saying something like only 250 ever made. Pretty rare I suppose.

no, but the dumbfuck redneck trash garage neighbor builds them and I'd like to burn that baby-woodshop to the ground.

so much anger

You need to get laid.


I'd never heard of the guitar...but it looks nice. Way beyond my abilities and too rich for my blood. I'll stick to my modified Strat.

You're a musician?

Those things are amazing. My Kramer has to be my favorite out of the bunch.

Well worth the price. I'll stick with my '80 les paul heritage though.

I'm excited to see what it goes for. A guy from the Kramer forum sent me an email saying that he bought one a couple years back and that he paid $3250. We emailed back and forth a couple times about the guitar, cool guy and gave me a good post on the Kramer forum that already had a thread started about my auction.

Over 1500 views and 130 (and climbing) people watching it :)

Sold for $3609.99! I got my brother $1609.99 more than he wanted for it. Nice commission I'll be getting on this one. :)

Awesome. I think my Gibson is one of the very few things I've ever bought that's actually appreciated in price.

3600 thats amazing, what was retail on that Guitar in 83' ?

The guys on the Kramer forum were saying it was $600 new. Lots of talk on there about my auction. A couple of the guys doubted it while others were talking $2k-$3k, and one guy even guessed $3300.

Haven't talked to my brother yet but he should be stoked! :bigtu:

HO LEE SH EE TT:eek5:

3600:eek5:

god damn, as far as guitars go it doesnt really look like much but i guess if its rare enough that doesnt really matter :)

i'm a gibson guy myself... 72 SG, 88 SG, 98 les paul, etc

The early Kramers were nice quality, then made famous by EVH.

Ok so now I get 2 emails from the buyer. :vash:

First one;

"Well, I had the Baretta looked at by my local luthier/authorized repair center and unfortunately he found some issues which came as a surprise to me. The neck on the baretta kicks up at the upper frets (like a ski slope) so they could not do a proper set up. The frets are worn down and the neck is a little twisted so to get this guitar playable they need to do plane the fingerboard flat and do a re-fret. And the electronics are not working problem (volume pot/wiring/jack need replaced). All of these issues affect the playability of the guitar and of course the collectibility value. I'm know these problems probably developed over time while the guitar was in storage for so many years and I'm sure neither you nor your brother realized the guitar had these issues. But I am asking for your help. I hope you will let me 1) return the guitar to you for a full refund (I would pay for the return shipping), or 2) keep the guitar and get a partial refund."
And this one right after it;

"And if you or I ever try to sell this guitar in the future, we would have to disclose these issues to the buyer now that we know about them.

After much thought and research, I think it would be fair to keep this guitar for $2K and get a partial refund of the difference. If you don't agree I will gladly ship the guitar back to you in exchange for a full refund.

If you are disappointed TRUST ME when I say I am 10 times more disappointed. But I know together we can make this right. Thanks-"

I would like to write the guy an email back stating that this is a 1983', not a 2008' and who ever said it was in MINT fucking condition. I have no idea what to do. The guy got the guitar and said it was packed excellent, looks great, thanks so much, its a dream come true, yatta yatta yatta. I'd like to tell him sorry, its not wheel and deal, it was a transaction and I don't do refunds. I'm not a guitar shop, I'm not a "store", I just sell things for other people.

I forwarded the emails to my bro, seeing that I don't really have much say in the matter. Problem is, after the guy wrote me back saying he was happy and all was well I deposited the money into my bank and wrote my brother a check. He already cashed it and I already spent my earnings for Christmas presents. Fucking blows.....:vash:

Any advice is much appreciated.

Did you disclose anything in your auction that would warrant a refund? If there was nothing in there stating that the buyer has XX days to inspect the item for a full refund (or anything of the sort) than I think the deal is sealed. What ever you do, save all the messages. If he files a claim with ebay or paypal it'll be handy. I hate online transactions that go south.....they blow :vash:

The auction had a 3 day return policy on it. I figured this way if the buyer got it and it was damaged via shipping that would be enough time to notice the damage.

My biggest concern is that now I use eBay as my main source of income. I get paid through paypal, transfer that to my bank, then pay my clients. If he opens a dispute and they put a $3609 hold on my shit.....I'm fucked BIGTIME.

Anyone have any advice on that part of things. Like as in should I try and see if I can open up a 2nd paypal account and use that in the meantime?

I'm not super nervous about this, just because I know I didn't fuck the guy. I sent back probably close to 50 emails with this guy and kept perfect communication. I packed THE SHIT out of the thing and insured it for $4k. Everything I could do, I did.

Trust me, I want to do the right thing. But I'm not gonna get fucked on this deal. It could really, really screw things up for my new business venture for sure. :vash:

If the ad didn't mention anything about being perfect and he didn't ask these specific questions prior to buying then that's his fault.

"The frets are worn down and the neck is a little twisted so to get this guitar playable they need to do plane the fingerboard flat and do a re-fret. And the electronics are not working problem (volume pot/wiring/jack need replaced). All of these issues affect the playability of the guitar and of course the collectibility value."

Plane and re-fret isn't that big of a deal and neither is an electronic problem. Tell jackass to just go and get it fixed.

In my first post I have a link to the auction.

This is the description I had for the guitar;

"Up for bid is a 83' Kramer Baretta guitar. Color is cream. This is the "holy grail" of guitars! Serial # C3604 *This auction also includes the original case in used condition (see pictures for details).

This guitar is in good used condition. It has been played, but never re-finished. My brother bought this new and has been the only owner since.

The locking nuts are missing and the volume control cover is missing."

Its 27 years old, so I'm not sure what he expected, but non the less its stated as "good used condition", not "ready to rock out and have jam sessions with". Of course it might need work, but I'm not an expert so I didn't disclose that type of information in the auction. If he had more detailed questions maybe I could have answered them if he had asked. :vash:

Now the guitar is no longer a "1 owner" collectible. And its no longer unmolested, he took it to "his guy" and who knows what was done with it. Its been handled and its been over the 3 days. Not to mention, how could I trust this guy would pack it up as thoroughly as I did when I sent it? I even have pictures that I took during the packaging process!

I feel like I know what I need to say, but I want some more opinions.

Thanks guys! :bigtu:

Tel dude to deal with it, not your problem.

+1... i think he just realized that he overpaid for it and wants some $ back

i agree, i think hes just trying to milk the ebay/paypal system which favors the hell out of buyers. i'll never sell anything bigger than a couple hundred dollars on ebay, because you can pretty easily get screwed out of the entire thing. the biggest thing i ever sold was a laptop for about $600... i was biting my nails for the next month praying that the guy didnt file a claim. there was nothing wrong with the computer, but it was a little beat up externally (disclosed in the auction), and people are assholes. i lucked out, but it seems you didnt.

really you should have put something to the effect of "sold as is, i'm no guitar expert so if you need detailed info or photos, ask"

Over the years I only had one dispute opened against me and it was for a Dell server I sold, coincidentally for my same brother.

They guy got it and said he couldn't boot it past the bios screen, etc etc, I didn't really understand what he was saying. My brother gave him free email support to help him, but he was stubborn and insisted on his money back. He open a claim saying it was DOA. I forwarded all emails to and from concerning the server, and that it was in fact not DOA. Took awhile, but I won the case.

Then the guy emailed me something about a baseball bat and showing up at my house. I told him to go right the fuck ahead, but that I wouldn't recommend coming here. lol

I'm going to email the guitar buyer now. I figured I would make him wait until this morning to stew things over and let him realize what a jackass he's being. We'll see how this goes.

I'm going to make it short and sweet. "I had a 3 day return policy, you should have asked me any and all questions concerning the guitar prior to even bidding on it, and I will not accept a return now that it has been handled." Something along those lines. Then if he writes back throwing a fit or threatening me, I'll write a more detailed email back.

In response to those 2 emails he sent me;

"I had a 3 day return policy and it has been 8 days since you received the guitar. The guitar was listed as "1983' baretta in good used condition", and I feel that in no way was the guitar misrepresented in the listing. It's a 27 year old guitar, so the solder might have come loose in shipping. I can refund you $20 to have the solder fixed."

Cant wait to read the response. :facepalm:

I just got off the phone with eBay and had a account representative review the listing. I explained everything to him and went through some of the emails I had with the buyer. He assured me that if it goes to dispute, which it inevitable will, that I should be confident of a win.

He said eBay cannot do ANYTHING for me until a dispute is opened, so I pretty much emailed the guy telling him to go ahead.

"The guitar was in fact playable when it left my hands. It was listed as a "83' in good used condition". I had a 3 day return policy on it and that was to insure there was no damage via shipping and that you were happy with it.

I just got off the phone with eBay and spoke with a account representative about the situation. He assured me after reviewing the listing and the information I gave him from emails between us that I should be confident if it goes to a dispute.

I am sorry you feel this way and that you are unhappy, but unfortunately we will have to go through eBay's dispute process if we must."

The rep even said "sounds like buyer's remorse". Unfortunately, that's not my problem. Apparently this guy didn't read eBay's terms and conditions when he signed up. There's no "hey hey hey I want that soooo fucking bad, I'm gonna bid I'm gonna bid yes yes yes!" .........then days later you regret it, a friends says "lol you paid HOW MUCH for that?!", or your wife finds out. I am simply a seller, and you are simply a buyer.

I'll have to see what he writes back and I assume I'll be back on the phone with eBay by the end of the day. :vash:

Looking forward to seeing you come out on top of this.....what a pain in the ass!

I sometimes wonder if my 89' Jap-spec Fender P-Bass Lyte Deluxe will ever become a collectable....or even vintage.

Well since I sent that email yesterday I haven't heard from the buyer, eBay, or PayPal. I'm thinking he might be on the phone with them discussing his options before he actually makes the claim.

Whether he goes through with the claim or not, I'm almost sure he'll leave me negative feedback. That will be my first one in 7 years if he does. Fucking dick! :vash:

Don't worry about it, you're stressing over nothing for now until he at least tries to do something. As a buyer I wouldn't be deterred from buying something from someone with 7 years of good reviews with only one negative, I'm pretty sure most people feel the same way. Good luck.

Jesus I can't get over the audacity of this guy.

With out a doubt you have the worst luck of anyone. Hope it works out for you in the end.

lol :bowrofl: dick!

Not really. I actually have alot of things going really well for me! Working for myself is such a great feeling man. Things are picking up every week and I have more shit lined up to sell than I can really handle at the moment. Not to mention I have the absolute best girl in the word to spend my time with and shes very supportive of me.

The car has been a bastard since I first took it apart in 04'! And when dealing with people directly as your own boss I guess you run into problems. I take the good with the bad. Lets put it this way, I've learned to relax and deal with shit a whole hell of alot better than I used to. Its funny how living life with the right person can really affect you and keep you happy. Life has changed tremendously for me in the past 6 months.

I will handle this situation and come out on top.......I fucking hope! :noes: lol

I love my Gibson LP black beauty, my first Les Paul, 1994 Epiphone LP Standard sun burst w/ custom Seymour Duncan SH-6b and SH-2n pick-ups, my red Fender GT Tornado with Seymour Duncan Invador pick-up, Ibanez standard bass with EMGs, and my very first guitar: Harmony electric with frankinstien modified humbuckers from epiphone (I dont know why I did it, but it makes for a good jazz guitar now)

I needs more. Gibson Casino I am coming for you.

Pics of GF?


Hope it works out, fiy i would buy from someone with 7 years of positive feedback and only one negative.

Ok, chicken soup for the soul. Just let us know when this tool responds :giggle:.

You guys aren't even going to believe whats going on right now! :vash:

And to think.....every time someone had something bad to say about paypal I was there to praise them.

I'm re-thinking my new business venture as I wait on hold with ebay right now. The fact that this is going on right now has me irate as fuck!

What I'm being told is COMPLETE bullshit. :vash:

If you end up having to give him a refund, claim the thing is damaged when it gets back to you (not as a result of shipping but rather by his guitar "expert" considering it probably will be anyway) and sue him or make another claim AGAINST him via pay pal, probably take a while but I think you'd end up gettting your money out of him over it.

Sorry bout your bad luck dude, exactly why I refuse to use paypal even for something as small as a $3.50/month membership here (speaking of which still need to get that damn money order to Rick :giggle:)

The guy finally opened a claim saying "item not as described". :vash:

Paypal is fucking with me now saying that ANYONE that uses Paypal and buys online has up to 45 days to request a full refund. That even though I had a 3 day return policy, that basically they override that.

And that if I escalate it to a claim, rather than the dispute it currently is at, that I would most likely have to refund the FULL amount and have the guitar returned to me.

I tried to explain to the lady its not the money. Its the fact this guy already has the guitar and has taken it to some shop somewhere where its been molested. Its decreased in value simply due to this transaction!

I'm really at a loss for words right now. This fucked my whole shit up. I had packages that had to go out today, but with my Paypal account tanked $3600 into the negatives I can't do a fucking thing. Not to mention the money I had in the Paypal account that was for clients, not even my own.

Still waiting to hear back from my bro on what he wants to do. I should have kept this family favor out of my actual business affairs.

If it comes to that, do what you can to document the lost value, which could be substantial, try to recover that and then relist it. Hopefully, the two payments will cover it. In reality, he was hoping for $2k IIRC. If you can get $500-1000 in lost value, it will resell for enough to get him to at least $2K and he still comes out OK.

The other thing is to talk to your brother about a substantial cash payment to "fix it" to keep it sold. He did make that original offer. Maybe a $1K refund will kill it. Again, he still ends up with more than he planned to get.

The guy said he would be happy with a $1500 partial refund, which would still leave my brother with his initial $2000 he wanted. Problem is, because it was sold for a larger amount I took a bigger cut as well.

Also, taking the guitar back and re-listing it is a complete waste of my time now. At the time when it was listed I had numerous emails from buyers saying if the winning bidder flaked on me that they wanted dibs. But now after all of this.....I'm almost sure it wouldn't be worth the same as it was 30 days ago.

It just kills me that this guy made a claim on it. It was listed as "good used condition". He asked NO questions prior to bidding and was happy with it once he opened the box. Now all of a sudden its a piece of shit and he's not happy with it. :jerkit:

BTW. Paypal also said that ANY emails between the buyer/seller could not be used in the case. Also news to me.

This: I'd almost be willing to consult a lawyer on this (well the whole thing really but this is just total BS) have any legal system savvy buddies?

EDIT: See if you can't do some prowling around on some collector guitar forums and what not to see if he's made any posts about how he feels he was ripped off or find a thread about him buying it with a bunch of people saying "dude you got ripped off" this might help in a case of proving that it's buyer's remorse to paypal if they'll take it as evidence (back to the lawyer thing) .. just a thought, after all the internet "stalking" I've seen help good people out/fuck over shitbags it can't hurt to try.

Also find out who did the "inspection" on it and do some research on the person, if they're not a reputable person/business then I'm pretty sure you can claim anything that's wrong with it is a direct result of a moron messing around with it and not knowing what they were doing.

This thread was started in reference to my auction.

questions about 83 "grail" model - Kramer Guitar Forum

I am still waiting to hear back from my brother before I jump the gun and email him.

That's a good idea. Maybe I will ask him for the name of his "tech" and do a search on him.

I asked the guy for his phone number so I could speak with him directly and he said lets keep it through Paypal. So irritating. I wish I had a store that I could deal with guys like this face to face. :vash:

When the whole thing first went south I actually did go to that site and do some searching around for you. I didn't find anything positive or negative on the deal. That was a week or two ago, though.

Offer him $1K, he will take it, your brother still gets over his asking and you get a bit. Even if you break even you win on this one. You need to give up your cut and cut this one off at the knees to free up your cash.

My brother is kinda killing me here on this one.

He said he would be willing to offer a small refund to end it and in parentheses he put $100-$300.

I agree that $1000 would probably seal the deal......but I don't think my bro is ready to do that. I think I'm going to start with $500 partial refund. If he accepts that.....then I guess I'll take $200 of my cut and live with it.

I'm just sooo pissed this is even happening. How can this be happening?! :vash:

Thanks man! I really appreciate the help and feedback. I feel really alone on this one and I've kinda been in a daze all day over it.

I still cant believe what the lady from Paypal was saying on the phone. :facepalm:

Your brother is getting greedy now. If it would have went through without a hitch at $2200 he would be thrilled.

Ok, I just got off the phone with eBay again. In attempts to stand my ground one more time I'm going to try something. I asked him for the name of the shop he took it to, and the name of the guy that checked it out. This way I can check his credentials and maybe even call him directly.

I denied the $1500 claim, but I am not opposed to sending a $500 partial, but I wont tell him that just yet.

Can anyone on here do anything with a name an address as far as info on the person goes. This guy never even told me his first name and still wont. He always signs off as JAG and even his first name on Paypal is just a J.

I'm starting to feel like he's done this before......

Who did you ship it to?

J. Anthony Guadalupe in Orlando Florida.

Can't you do a white pages search with the name and address?

Found him :)

Does anyone here have a account that checks the names for you? Not sure what I could do with any info I found. But now at least I know his name is Joseph. I'll make sure I address him by his name next time.

Call him up. You can always get a better feel for what they are thinking over the phone vs email.

I already asked him for his phone number and he turned me down and said lets keep it through Paypal. Now that I have his number should I call anyway?

Now here's the latest.

I wrote to him;

"I would like to have the name of the place you took the guitar to and the name of the guy you had look at it."

His response;

"No problem. Now that you are aware of the defects of this guitar you can disclose it to future buyers from this point forward. And since you declined my partial refund request, does that mean you would like to grant a full refund and have me ship the guitar to you or how do you propose we resolve the matter at this point?"

Is this fucking guy serious?!

I just read this whole thread. Wow, what an asshole.

It sounds like you have a handle on it, but the longer you stand your ground, the more likely you are to get a fair settlement. I would say you have a better hand than the buyer. My guess the buyer laid it on pretty thick to paypal, which sounds like he has experience with manipulating the system.

Good luck man.

Don't call him, if things end up real shitty he doesn't sound like the kind of person I'd put a harassment charge passed, and since he did decline to give you his number it could very well be argued that he more or less told you not to call him, I'd save that for later.

I definitely wouldn't deal with him any longer, send him back one more e-mail apologizing again for any misunderstandings etc.. and tell him that since he wants to keep it to PayPal that you will keep all communications through them from now on. Give him you number if you want and tell him that if he would like to settle it to call you and you can do so that way but you are done with e-mails. If he calls deal with him then, but I'd still keep conversations limited until the dispute is canceled (which if you "make a deal with him" should ABSOLUTELY be done before giving him one dime back.

Good luck, hope that made since, it's 0030 and I've been up for almost 24 hours now :laugh:.

Tell him you would like a second opinion on the condition of the Guitar. Find a shop in Orlando call them explain the situation. The guy he took it to is probably his buddy at Guitar center trying to rectify the fact he got excited and overpaid. Ive fondled many Guitars and his original complaint sounds bogus to me. I bet he will refuse a second opinion at a shop of your choosing.

Ok here's the latest. I wrote back to him last night and just enjoyed the rest of my night without looking at his asshat response.

I wrote to him;

As I stated to you earlier via email the guitar was in fact "playable" and not damaged when it left my hands. As far as your accusations about the damage I cannot comment on them seeing that I am no expert. If however you had asked me any of this before bidding I could have had it looked at by professional. The guitar was listed auction style and described as "good used condition" and nothing more other than one owner, case included, etc. It was never described as vintage or collectors, only that it was 27 years old.

I declined the partial refund and I am declining a full refund as well. Now that the guitar has been in your hands and was touched by your specialist it has significantly decreased the value of the guitar. I had a 3 day return policy in place to insure it was what the buyer wanted and made it through shipping ok. You emailed me once you had it in hand stating you got it and that you were happy with the transaction.

I'm sorry it has come to this. I strongly believe that, in no way, did I misrepresent the guitar in this auction. I suggest we escalate the claim and let Paypal and eBay handle this, seeing that we cannot come to an agreement.

If you would, please give me the name of the shop you took it to. Thanks.

He replied back;

For the record, when I received the guitar I informed you that it had arrived safely and then stated that I would take it to my technician / luthier for a set up (which I do for all my guitars, especially higher value guitars such as this one). And that is when these issues were discovered. I believe that you did not intend to mislead me, because as you said you are not an expert so you would not have known about the twisted neck and the negative impact it has on a guitar. Which is why although you offered me a $20 partial refund via email, I chose to communicate with you through this resolution center for a more realistic solution. I am really trying to work with you here to come to resolve this matter equitably and amicably. PLEASE tell me what you think is fair.

He is STILL avoiding the question about who he took it to in Orlando!

He wants to know what I think is fair. Fair to me is I put the guitar up for auction and listed it as "good used condition", not vintage, not collectors, not MINT conditions, etc etc.....and he won it. He got it and was happy with it right out of the box and told me so. Fair would have been to ask these questions he obviously knows might be an issue, seeing that he says he collects guitars! If he was willing to dish out that kind of cash on a 27 year old guitar, knows these kinds of things could happen, but didn't even mention them to me, is odd.

I'm thinking that I will tell him what my idea of fair is (copy paste above). And that I can try and do my best to make things right by getting the NAME OF THE SHOP he took it to, getting the invoice on the work needed for repair, and comparing that to a local shop we have here in Danbury, and then splitting the cost 50/50. If he's not happy with that.....then there's nothing more I'm willing to do. Even this is too much. Its a fucking 27 year old used guitar. I am not a shop, store, expert, or anything like that. I feel like this guy pulled a fast one on me. :vash:

What do you guys think? How much could it cost to fix the things he says are damaged? I know NOTHING about guitars.....so this is all new to me.

i'm betting this guy did legitimately take it in for a setup/appraisal, and the guy told him he got ripped off. then he concocted a story to try and get money out of you.

people suck...

ive played plenty of guitars with slightly messed up necks. you can theoretically just set the action a little higher and live with it, thats what i do with my 72 SG. the only thing is i play mostly rythm while this guy is probably a shredder type player if he's dumping 4k on a EVH guitar.

I forwarded the conversation I'm having with the buyer on Paypal to my brother and he made a good catch.

I need to clarify on the Paypal conversation (which is really the only conversation they're going to look at) that my $20 offer was to re-solder a wire that might have come loose during shipment. He's almost implying that I am acknowledging it had neck issues.

Fucking guy is getting to me man. lol.....I actually typed something here and just had to remove it. Just in case you know......:hustler: