College/After highschool
 

So I would assume I'm one of, if not the youngest member on this forum. I graduate high school in June, I should be able to get out in April if I get my internship I applied for. I've learned a sh*t ton on this forum and I feel like it's definitely a special place because of the active members here and how honest they are. So my questions are obviously about college and just after high school in general.
First I'll give you some background about myself, I've worked for my father who owns a small landscape business for the last 5-6 years, every day, every summer. I also bounced around a few other jobs as a small engine mechanic, which I just did only for the money. Landscaping/Arboriculture is something I've been interested in for a while. My father has been in the industry for around 30 years, he just recently left his old company because they were sold to a national company and started his current business. Most of the people he hired when through the UMass Amherst arboriculture program, so I looked into it and they had a 1 week pre-college program on the course so I signed up for it, I enjoyed the course a lot, got to meet the professor, and even had some time up in trees. I applied to the school for early action in early November, I heard back and got in a few days ago. I looked at the cost and it was around $30,000 for a year. I didn't think much of it at the time but now crunch time is coming for other school and other possibilities and it seems like a lot.
I've tossed around the idea of the military as well for the past 2 years, I haven't talked to a recruiter at all, which I know is the first real step. I know quite a few of you are vets (thank you for your service and any input would be greatly appreciated). I was curious what people though of enlisting for 4 years and taking college courses at sea and after getting out. My father seems to have a notion of the military being for runts who don't know what they want to do with themselves and that the idea of supported college will be gone because of budget cuts or something (It was a long rant). I want to know is it all that they hype it up to be? Do you really leave with a good set of skills that can be used later in life? Are you really even in any competition with those who went through college? Am I better off just footing the college bill and living frugally for the next few years?
Other schools do interest me, like Wentworth (specifically electrical) and mass maritime (merchant marine) which I plan on applying too anyway. I know these are pretty much impossible questions for you guys to answer, I just didn't really know how to word them :)
Thanks for reading
--Forrest

fwiw- Wife and I both went to local state/community colleges for the first two years then transferred to the university of our choice. That's yields a significant savings. You just need to research what credits the school of your choice will except from your first two years.

It sounds like you don't know what you want. I would suggest getting a job and going to a community college. The job will give you experience. The community college will give you an affordable 2-year degree. You can even put it towards a 4-year degree, if you decide to go that route. Sometimes an associate's and some experience is all you need.
Take the opportunity to take classes you don't need. Pick up a few hours of welding or something that interests you on a personal level. Even with some extra hours, you should finish well shy of the $30k one year would have cost at UMass.
After your college years are up, you still have the option of going into the military. Most branches give you a higher starting rank when you enter with an associate's degree, and even higher with a bachelor's.

You need to talk to Troy >>Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats. - View Profile: miata2fast. He owns a successful landscaping company that specializes in native fauna. He would probably be willing to talk to you about it in some depth and might be able to give you some insight on what would be worth it for you. I know he works with the local government a lot in parks and stuff and does some work to contain invasive species. I am sure he has some other contacts in academia and other related fields that might be able to provide further information. I'll alert him of this thread. You should PM him as well.

EDIT: I have no idea how to tag another forum member in a post.

Paging @miata2fast

LEARN A TRADE.

Or how to code.

Do as others have said and do your first two years at a community college. Don't take out loans at all in that time, and after the first year, claim your income on the FAFSA instead of your parents. That should easily qualify you for a Pell grant.
As far as the military goes... it really just depends. I went into the navy with a clear idea of what I wanted to do, and I enjoyed my time, for the most part.
Afterwards, I used the GI bill to pay for whatever scholarships and grants would not.
If you go into the military without picking a job and knowing exactly what it takes to actually achieve the position, you are going to have a bad time.
Community college seems to be the answer here. Don't be like the other 95% percent of your generation and shackle yourself with debt before you even know how to live by yourself.

The military is an excellent way to pay for college and gain some experience and maturity.

I highly recommend a path that keeps you from borrowing money in the form of student loans. Whether that is paying as you go going to Community College and/or using the GI Bill, you will be far ahead of your contemporaries who have borrowed $100,000 to go to college once you are out.

I graduated college 6 yrs after my HS classmates. While they were in school I did active duty in the Air Guard, got into a mfg job as a machinist, put myself through school by putting in extra trips + weekends in the Air Guard (air crew) and going to school nights. In those days our community colleges were called "technical schools". Luckily I was single, most of the credits transferred to a 4yr school and I was fortunate to work in a place where they valued and rewarded initiative.

I finished college 3 months before my 6yr obligation ended. Buy that time I was already working in Industrial Engineering because of the experience.

There are many ways to pay for your education as you go if you do the effort. Most important thing I'd offer is try and make whatever your vocation is 'future proof' if that's possible.

You have to convince yourself no one else is going to do it for you including parents.

Good luck!

Active Duty Air Force here. It is great, they pay for your school, and on active duty the benefits are stellar. There are tons, and I mean tons of opportunities for education programs. STEM, Nursing, Air Force Academy. Even the enlisted PME (Professional Military Education) is at a bachelors to masters level. So we are no dummies.

They paid for my ME degree and I'm working on masters in engineering management. As far as being more marketable for employment, as long as you don't dick around and get your degree, you will be more marketable. Government civilian positions show hiring preference to veterans, and most companies see military service, and know you'll work.

As far as myself, I am at my 10 year mark, just made E7, and have no plans of getting out. It has been a blast. I've gotten to tour the Arabian peninsula and about half of Europe. I've spent most my career in TX but through deployments and TDYs have had some great (and maybe a couple of oh shit) experiences. If your interested, find someone like myself or a couple other members of this forum who aren't recruiters to help you through the process.

Other than that, go to a 2 year community college. That is fine. I never, ever had any trouble getting anyone to accept them. Well University of North Dakota did give me some flack, but it worked out. Those folks are overly proud of their engineering program. If you're interested in your fathers business, do it.

The main thing is, find some career that people always need. We always need engineers, mechanics, and medics. Farmers too, but I don't want my post getting moved to the political section, just count the farming thing out.

Like I said, a trade. As bahurd mentioned, futureproof.

Some guy in India can't fix your HVAC or Plumbing.

If you go the trade route, take some business and accounting class at a local community college. Trades pays well when you are young, but it is at the cost of your body. So the real way to make good money in it is to train while young, then as you age start your own company and have other younger people work for you.

There are very few days when I am sitting at my desk at work that I don't wish I was out doing something "trade" like. Then reality takes over and I accept that long term my body will be much happier with me at the desk.

I have a friend who joined the military at 17 and had a full military retirement coming in after he left at age 37. Plus he had his master's degree in Business Administration and a lot of experience in management from the military. If his degree had been in some sort of a science like an engineering degree of some sort he could have made a lot more when he got out. If he had completed his degree prior to joining the service then his retirement and his pay would have been a lot more over the 20 years. Then he ended up with a good paying job in addition to his military retirement every month.

But whatever you do I implore you to get science degree and not an arts degree. A BS is almost always going to be worth more than a BA. That is a part of the future proofing that the fellows keep talking about.

One of my customers is a power plant. They had an open position for about 9 months for a mechanical engineer. No specific experience necessary. They would train. The job started at $80,000. They could not get anyone to apply. This was in an area where you could buy a four-bedroom house with a large yard for $150,000. There weren't any positions for Bachelor of Arts graduates with no experience paying more than about 30,000.

May not necessarily be the advice for you because you don't know exactly what you want to do.

But if you love doing something, that has good career opportunities, don't necessarily be afraid of loans.

My fiance is about to start Nursing school. Nursing is a well paid profession, that is in high demand and has many paths for future advancement and further learning.

She will be taking out upwards of $60k in loans to get through her program. But when she is done she will be doing something she loves, and making a living that provides a means to pay back her loans.

I have friends who are still paying back hundreds of thousands of dollars of med school loans. But they don't care, because they are doing exactly what they want to be doing for the rest of their life, saving peoples lives.

If you don't know what you want to do, ignore the advice above, but loans have a place in education.

I agree with this completely. I never had loans myself due to full scholarships and help from my grandparents to pay for my master's degree but even if I had to pay every penny I would have owed $45-50k most for undergrad and graduate level education. I went to a state school that wasn't particularly prestigious but was well ranked for my major. I chose a career path with plenty of opportunities and good salary and advancement trajectory. I have made a few early jumps and I'm doing quite well for myself at the young age of 26. I sit in an office and the work is a little boring but I pull in a rather handsome salary for my age and the COL in Tampa. I also rarely work more than 40 hours. I know a lot of people are mentioning trades but technically skilled office jobs are also great. They don't tear up your body and usually pay very well. Plenty of young trades people do make great money but they are also often working in not so great conditions (think oil fields/rigs, hot shops, dangerous environments) and have concerns related to job security and may have to always be willing to uproot and move for steady work. There are trade-offs in every route. You need to sit down and prioritize what you actually want out of life and then work backwards into a career that fits that ideal. Unless, of course, you have a true passion (which I don't or at least nothing I would turn into a career) that you would like to pursue.

I have a nearly worthless psychology degree, other than the fact I wouldn't have been considered for my current or previous jobs without a degree. So I guess it is worth it for that reason. I work in a profession I didn't know existed and wouldn't have thought I had an aptitude for, but I do pretty well. Sometimes opportunities sneak up in you. But you need to typically get your ticket punched at various necessary stops to move to each succeeding level.

Your Dad is talking badly about the military because he has no clue. You guys probably have no close family friends who are military and don't live in a mil-populated area. Plus, living in Mass, he's probably a screaming liberal who would rather you rack up $150k of debt getting a history degree and then moving back home and taking over the family business because you couldn't find a job anywhere else, were broke and desperate. I'm kidding sorta... but really, he's speaking poorly about joining because of a stigma that just doesn't exist anymore. Sure, there are guys out there who still join because the judge said "Jail or Army, choose now"... and off he went to dig trenches. But the truth is that competition in the non-grunt rates is high, and kids are damned smarter today about everything than your Dad was when Pole Position was the new hotness.

Your first place to start is your school guidance counselor. Tell him you want to take the ASVAB and let him set it up. A high school in your area probably has them regularly scheduled, or you may be connected with a recruiter and take it at a recruiting station with 50 other people on a specific date. Don't be scared of recruiters... they have a job to do and you're on the menu, but never pick up a pen to sign up without somebody you trust there with you... like Mom or Dad. You need to take the ASVAB because if you're a total rock and don't know it, painting bulkheads or digging shitters is in your future. OTOH, maybe you're a stud and qualify for nuke, or intel, or cyber, or have a big swinger and get to be God's gift to women and be a SEAL!

A plan is good to have. Short term enlistments that require little to no schooling could be as little as 4 years. If you're going to school for a year or picking up a technical rate that requires a cash-investment to train you, it might be a 6-year gig. Once out of boot camp, the next year that you're in school is going to be make-or-break for your habit patterns. Remember, lots of guys are there because they were fuckups before and haven't grown up... they want to party and fuck and spend money and keep wasting time. YOU don't want to be that guy. You want to be the disciplined guy who is already saving money and doesn't have a ton to fuck around with partying. You want to get a stable nice girlfriend with no piercings who goes to church and doesn't club, preferably a civilian chick with her own car and a job with a future. You do not want to get her pregnant, so no "Just the tip" or any of that shit... wrap it up every time no matter what she says she's taking. You also want to be taking online courses that keep you home a few nights a week and the odd weekend at a group-study or something. Plenty of opportunity to get the Military to pay for it.

While you're being the model soldier/sailor/Marine, your superiors WILL NOTICE. You will stand out in the crowd by simply not being a TED (Typical Enlisted Dude) or FRED (Fucking Retarded Enlisted Dude). Yup, I'm an Officer, and I'm glad my Chief doesn't own a Miata because Officers aren't really allowed to use those terms in polite conversation. Do your job well, don't swear as much as the other guys, take 10 more seconds on your uniform than you think you should, and never ever ever ever ever FUCKING DON'T FUCKING EVER get in a relationship with any chick who works any closer to you than the other side of the base.

ROTC... ROTC is a scholarship that pays for college and then requires X number of years of military service... as an Officer. I think you've missed the deadline for Air Force ROTC Application... Army is next week, and Navy is at the end of the month. Navy and Marines are the same program. If you've got a 3.0 or better and do a few extra-curricular things or play a sport, or whatever, it's easy'ish to apply. Your guidance counselor can tell you more, or you can Google that shiz... it's all online. Letters of recommendations are probably the hardest thing to come by since lots of adults can't write... Google "examples or ROTC recommendation letters" and print out 20 or so for them to get started.

If you join enlisted, there are a lot of way to become an Officer later... I won't bore you with the details, but basically you have to be the poster-boy I talked about earlier and your leadership will notice and help you down that path.

Advantages to Military straight out of high-school:
You get a steady paycheck, free place to live, full medical/dental, tons of training, 28 days a year of vacation, and a guaranteed job for at least 20 years if you're just plain average at what you do.
Your family also gets crazy cheap full medical/dental and a place to live... and you have no idea yet how awesome that is.
At some point, you'll probably be stationed in Florida, Texas, Nevada, etc... and claim residency and never pay state income tax as long as you're in the service.
YOU GET 4 YEARS OF COLLEGE PAID FOR NO MATTER WHAT IF YOU JUST COMPLETE YOUR CONTRACT (I think you need to do 6 years)! Of keep it for your wife or kids to use... my wife is using my GI bill to get her Masters and then both my kids are getting 1 year college free each... actually, they'll go ROTC and get the whole thing paid for.

The new military retirement system just kicked off and big news for those who plan on using a military enlistment as a way to fund college and move on. You get a 1% contribution to your TSP retirement plan from the gov't, who will match up to 4%. I'm pretty sure it's tough to find a company out there who will match 4% into a retirement plan.

For those going the full 20 or more, the new retirement percentage pays 2% for every year of service... that's only 40% if you retire at 20yrs compared to the 50% we get now. But the goal is to get people to start saving early in their career to offset the lower retirement pay.

It's late, I'm tired... back tomorrow to continue...

Agreed 100%

I borrowed to get though school for a BS in Mechanical engineering. Paid all the loans back quickly and easily once I was out of school. I don't borrow money for anything else, but I did for school and have no regret.

The weird thing is, he is actually pretty right wing. He is a small business owner and thinks that government is too big, especially with the help issue in the labor field. He had a very rough upbringing, he told me once that he considered the army to become a medic but didn't see the light so to speak.

As far as my gpa is I have a 3.7 and like an 1150 on the sat (1600 score). I've qualified for National honor society and have played sports throughout high school. I'll will definitely bring some of those benefits into conversation. You were one of the people I was hoping would respond!
One last question, how much control do you really have over your own future as an enlisted, are the options slim as far as MOS goes? I'm really interested in something about being a machinist mate.

There are times where I look at my old man and think, do I really want to be out working everyday with my hands at 55? Granted the business is just barely getting to the point where he can work on it rather than in it, that seems to be his next logical goal.

Depending upon what your ASVAB scores are, you have a HUGE variance in what they will offer you. My brother had $40k in student debt forgiven AND got a big cash bonus because he had a bunch of computer and electronic savvy and is really smart. The recruiter wanted to sign him as a cook or truck driver because that's what the recruiter needed to fill. But he wasn't falling for it. And he got a MOS with some really good training in communications/satellite equipment and such. He busted ass and kept his nose clean, and was a leader in basic training and all of his schools (he was a few years older than the standard recruit) and made rank quickly.

The recruiter will tell you to "sign here" and you can choose to change MOS later but it is a lie. Get what you want in writing up front. Recruiters are allowed to lie. If it isn't on a paper contract it never happened. Shop the different services against each other. Make the recruiters offer you better opportunities than the other guy. Skip the Marines if you want a skilled job (sorry Marines) that involves using your brain and keeping your hands clean.

I told my wife just a few weeks ago that if I could go back and talk to 18 year old me (and didn't go in the military, which I conditionally recommend), I'd recommend going into the skilled trades. I'm in a doctorate level graduate program now, and looking at $150,000 in student debt by the time I'm done - my first student loans ever. But if I'd gotten a start in an in-demand skilled trade when I was your age, I'd be looking at upper management or opening my own business now, and making money rather than spending it. The trick, no matter what you do (and certainly in the military), is to be hungry, and work harder and smarter than your peers. You'll have opportunities presented to you, or be able to pursue them on your own, when all your "do the minimum" coworkers are stuck.

It usually takes ten years to get to a place of mastery and real financial security no matter what job you're in, if you're willing to work. If you start that ten years now, think of the step-up you'll have on your peers who spend their twenties partying and don't get traction until they're thirty. Trust me - it's worth it.

Did you not go into the military? That sentence confuses me

Yeah, I can see how it would. I actually attended the US Air Force Academy, but was medically discharged before graduation. Although cadets are technically active duty, I never had a duty station outside of USAFA. This produced what we will call a crisis of confidence. All my friends were going on to fly jets or snoop around in OSI, and I was going back to my hometown unable to walk right. Even now, over a decade later, it can still be a tender subject.

I decided to be a mechanic right out of high school, and about 4 years later I hated it. A lot. As previously stated, jobs like this will take a lot out of you. I'm only 26 and my body feels like its 40. Also the pay sucks, dealership politics are fucking terrible, and its just not fun having to find a rattle underneath a dashboard that is only present at 17.6 mph on a 40 foot stretch of Main St between the hours of 3 and 4 AM. For free.
Now I'm an engineering major. Paid my way through a CC until I transferred and now I'm taking loans. Nothing wrong with loans.

Basically, +1 on going to CC. However I have seen a lot of people go to CC and never leave or end up dropping out entirely, so my advice is try not to lose focus while you're there.

I know guys who didn't make 1000 on the SAT and literally aced the ASVAB. You should do well.

Your ASVAB score determines most of what ratings you qualify for. Nothing is off the table before the test unless you have pre-existing medical conditions. After the test, you need to shop recruiters from each service and do your homework on commitments.

For example, the Air Force cyber-school might be a year long and you have a 6yr commitment after that. You're not likely to advance ranks while in school, so your paycheck won't increase and the school might be in Oklahoma in winter. And then your first duty assignment is guaranteed 3 years in North Dakota.
Or... the Navy school might be only 6 months in Key West with a 4 year commitment and opportunity to make E-3 upon graduation, and probable orders to San Diego or Virgina Beach. You could be an E-7 in the Navy before the Air Force will make you an E-5 (or vice-versa)... and literally do the exact same job.
If you're just looking for a 4yr gig and get out... your choices of initial duty location possibilities might weigh on your decision.

Rates that are growing will advance people faster... rates that people never get out will have a slow advancement rate... you might make E-5 in 4 years, but be stuck there for another 10 because once guys make E-6, they never get out so there are no spots at the higher rank for you to promote to. The size of the military is set by congress, so the Navy can't just decide they need more Ensigns next year and start up more OCS classes... the numbers are all fixed. Your recruiter should allow you to see the advancement percentages of each rate over the last decade... or all that shiz is a quick google.

Here's a link: http://ec.militarytimes.com/static/p...ctive-Duty.pdf

This graph shows each enlisted rating in the Navy... the chart left to right are E-6 (First Class Petty Officer, equivalent to Staff Sergeant), then E-5 (Second Class, Sergeant), then E-4 (Third Class, Corporal).
The columns in each chart show the rating (YN= Yeoman, ABE= Aviation Boatswains Mate Equipment, SO= Special Operator)... any questions on any of them, just ask. Then the total number of people that are eligible to take advance to that rank (you are eligible to promote up a rank if you have the required time-in-service at your current rank), the number of quotas the Navy has and the percentage that makes... then the MAP (Meritorious Advancement where CO's get to choose people to promote even though they didn't make the cut, kinda like a "Battlefield Promotion").

The 227 column to the right is the numbers from the previous advancement cycle... probably Fall 2014.

So, if you look at ABE's (guys who run the catapult and arresting gear on aircraft carriers and launch/recover aircraft) trying to make E-6, only 8 out of 294 will make it. Most of those guys will have been E-5's for like 5-6 years and been in over 10... so it's very tough to promote in that rank.
However, you can see that a lot of ratings promote fairly well. A 20% advancement each cycle isn't all that bad... there are 2 advancement cycles per year, so that might be 40% per year when you do all the higher math.

THIS IS JUST HOW THE NAVY DOES IT:
Promoting from one rank to another from E3-E6 is based on a point system and a ratings test. If you score "Sailor of the Year" and get yourself a cool medal, plus hold a few collateral duties in the command, plus your warfare pins, you get points... then you have to smoke your rating exam that tests both general Naval Knowedge and your in-rating knowledge... then they take the top XX% of test passers and THEN they rack&stack the points and the top XX number of people promote.

Machinist Mate ratings look decent... but also, there are several different types of MM's... Nuke, Weapons, and Aux. Your marketability on the outside is pretty huge though if you're a blue-collar kind of guy.

I will second what SIXSHOOTER said... there is no such thing as "you can change rate after you sign" bullshit. While it's true that people do change from one rating to anther, the occurrence is rare and only typically when one is overmanned and others are undermanned. It certainly doesn't happen quickly or often. Do not let your recruiter talk you into signing up for one rate and promising you can change it in boot camp... that shit does not happen.

However, there are a lot of guys who sign up "undesignated" for some reason and choose to strike for a particular rating after they get to their first duty-station. For example... a guy will come in as an undesignated Airman after boot-camp and join his first squadron. He'll be running the "line-shack"... moving aircraft, flight-line, wash-jobs, kinda like a general airport grunt... and all the while, learning a little about the other aviation rates. After 6 months, he might attempt to get designated in an actual rate by taking an exam and then become an AM "Aviation Structural Mechanic" or AO "Aviation Ordnanceman" or whatever.

Fingers tired...

So, I'll throw my voice into the mix.

First of all, it's awesome that you're thinking about this now instead of assuming that shit's just going to work out because everyone is telling you it will. So kudos for that.

Like everything else in life, the fact that going to college is a good decision doesn't mean that there aren't tiers to how good of a decision it is and that certain tiers of that decision make no sense. Take Sixshooter for instance: psych, while really freaking cool doesn't really have much of a solid financial path unless you have a clear trajectory in mind. What do I mean by this? Well if you want to go into counseling and social work vs going further into getting a psy D, then that changes things especially based on your interests. If you're interested in academics or in a field where 'prestige' matters, then sure it might matter where you go, for everything else the cheapest reasonable option is a good idea. Whether that cheapest reasonable offer is a community college for pre-reqs and a state school for the final two years, or if it's a private school that decided to be nice and throw money at you. This is where people mess up. Applying to one school, and a state school at that, means that you have no idea what you're worth, so to speak. I applied to a SHIT ton of colleges in 2006 and got the most money from a private school that happened to be the best ranked of anywhere I got into. They just had more money to throw at students for whatever reason. It was more expensive for me to go to one of my state schools!

Do your research. The military isn't going anywhere. They will always want you unless you screw something up or are disqualified in some other way. They do own you to a good degree, so it's something to think about.

Honestly, if you're uncertain about the future you should take a year or two to regroup and take classes at a local state school or community college and get your pre-reqs out of the way before going into that program. Even doing that for a year while working and saving up money is going to help out a ton. You're a smart kid and it'll pay dividends.

On the other side, 30k a year might sound like a lot especially if you consider interest, but there's nothing that says that you can't work during school. Given the fact that you have a work history with something that involves skills, you can work through school. You honestly have a ton of free time in undergrad in most majors that aren't engineering or the hard sciences because those can be unpredictable if you're required to do research (experiments have a knack for not working when you have to be somewhere on time).

You could probably offset a good amount of that 30k cost by working part time during school. 15-20 hours a week during weeks that aren't the week before and during finals should be pretty manageable. Athletes spend about that much time training and traveling for games most weeks and have plenty of time to do schoolwork and have a social life. The other plus for this is that when you start working after college, you can keep doing this to supplement your income or to build up capital for your business should you choose to start it.

How you live after you graduate makes a huge difference. Are you going to spend your first salary acting like you have no loans or are you comfortable living frugally for a couple of years after graduation to put a huge dent into your loans? That's the best time for it because chances are that you won't have a family and mortgage right after you graduate so it's a good time to take it a bit easy on the bar tabs and use the money to pay off loans.

I'm still in grad school, but one of the biggest issues I've seen in my field is that folks get their first 'real' job and spend like they've been working there for a decade. It makes no sense.

You're on the right track. Start talking to people that work in the field you're interested in. See what salaries are like after graduation and with 10 years experience. See what people think the field is going to be doing in the future.

Edit: Forgot to add that you can choose to live off campus if it's allowed. College room/board costs are often an order of magnitude higher than what you'd pay if you were renting a room in an apartment and cooking a bit of your own food.

First off, its great that you're seeking advice. The responses you've gotten have all been the thoughtful insights we come to expect from our miata brethren.
I'll try giving a different perspective based on what has worked for me.
First my background: I'm a cyber-security/microelectronics engineer. I've been in the business for about 10 years. I started my career by doing a full time co-op with xilinx here in NM (fpga company). This was probably the best decision I made in school. I finished undergrad a year late, but learned more about work, myself and what I wanted than I ever would have on my own (LESSON 1). I continued with xilinx full time after undergrad and stayed in school to finish my masters in EE. It sucked, there were a lot of late nights due to working 60 hour weeks and doing school work, but it was done in 3 years. After 5 years with xilinx, they shut down my site and I was laid off at the ripe age of 26. It sucked... I had a mortgage and a newly married wife in grad school... (LESSON 2) After that I took a job with Intel in Oregon. It was a job in computer aided design and not the circuit design world I was used to. I never fit in with Intel. The company wanted one dimensional cog workers to fit into their machine. I was reprimanded multiple times for doing things outside of the box with methods they weren't familiar with (LESSON 3). After that I took a job back in NM doing pure research and development. It's been an awesome job. I more or less work on unsolved problems and am given a lot of resources to do things as I see fit.

LESSON 1: The hardest thing about work for me was having to show up and perform at a high rate every damn day of your life. It was at this point in my career that I learned to NEVER shy away from challenges... If you're being paid to figure out stuff that no one else has figured out then you're doing it right. Also this is where I learned that while school is important, it is merely a foot in the door of your career. You're not going to get paid to repeat crap you learned in school; you'll get paid well to figure out things no one else has.

LESSON2/3: You're going to get kicked in the nuts no matter how hard you work. You can pour your lifeblood into something and still be cast aside like a burned out cigarette butt. I also learned that regardless of how awesome a geographic location is (Portland was cool), I personally can't handle a densely populated area. Where you live determines a lot about your life; when you can retire; how much money you need to make; how many freaking gaper skiers clog the damn mountian when it snows with their freaking gaper prius's in the way of my *&$^% powder day (ARRRGGGGGG)... skiing was aggravating in the PNW... At least compared to the promise land that is NM.

LESSON3: Sometimes you need to make a paycheck and be grateful for the work, no matter how you feel about it. This was Intel for me. I was bored and undervalued, but I never took the job for granted and continued to do whatever I could to learn new skills. NEVER stop investing in yourself. NEVER get stagnant and comfortable. Humanity didn't get to where it is by being comfortable. The post ww2 generation is over. My grandfather raised a family of 5 being a paint salesman... those days are dead. You must remain flexible and valuable. NEVER stop evaluating your capabilities and NEVER stop looking on the horizon for the next opportunity.

You'll notice some things in my little story: I've never been a business owner; never taken any major risks; never made a major career change; I've always worked for semi-large to large companies.
I point that out not as a recommendation but to show that regardless of the path I chose, there are countless options in life. I've had a relatively stable career, but I'm sure I've missed out on interesting stuff because of it. I'm sure you'll be different than me.

My final piece of advice: Keep your goals in mind, but never lose sight of what you don't want to do with your life. I worked as a commercial fisherman between semesters during early undergrad. While there was a career path there that probably led to much more money than I make now, the work was anything buy stimulating. I never lost sight that I wasn't willing to give up my interests in the pursuit of maximizing money intake.

Good luck!

NM sounds nice. Had no idea there was a tech industry. I don't like Portland much either, but we're planning to move outside of the main area.

PM me so we can keep the rest of this convo on track but I'm an EE who doesn't like densely populated areas and am interested in what you do.

I just graduated with a B.S. in mechanical engineering (I graduated HS in 2007, I took the slowboat to a degree). I owe $19k in loans, I could have kept it to $15k but I got a little lazy. I did the community college route. Had a few friends who were in the military, went to community college same as me, and used GI bill while at the university. They have zero debt. The community college route was good for me, as I didn't know what I wanted when I started. Whatever you do, keep debt to a minimum. When I look back, more than anything I am grateful to have had a few jobs that forced me to develop a strong work ethic.

I agree with most here about keeping debt to a minimum. I worked through college and took my time to minimize taking loans - took six years, but got a civil engineering degree. Paid off my loans within the first year since I was fortunate and able to live with my parents.

If I could do it over, I'd do the community college/transfer route, that would have been cheaper and I probably would have graduated faster. Keeping your skills relevant/marketable is applicable to any industry, so just make sure to keep that in mind. If you're engaged in what you do, though, hopefully that takes care of itself. Be adaptable and plan ahead - if you see your industry changing, try to make sure you're a part of that future.

Best of luck to you, if you have specific questions about civil engineering or whatever, feel free to PM.

Yep, I have a B.A. in Journalism - Public Relations. Basically worthless if you want to make any money.

I was a claim rep for State Farm first job out of school, and lucked into a Tech Writing job after applying for a different job in the same company. 9 years of experience later, in one of the cheapest markets in the country, I landed a job that puts me closer to $100k/yr than $50k/yr and a massive sign-on bonus once my RSU's vest.

But I've busted my ass at my job and been willing to move and change jobs to get there. This is my 6th Tech Writing job in 9 years.......although the first 2 I left before I got laid off (economy in 2008 than military contracts in 2011), then got laid off on the next 2 (yay oil prices than outsourcing of manufacturing of Airplane parts).

Oh man, I just wrote an entire story about my winding academic path, but realized that everyone has such different experiences that no one can relate. I took a very long way and I did take out loans because I had no support and was a sub par highschooler. But the cliffnotes are this, and I can expand on them if there's any interest. I was not eligable for military because of health reasons.

Graduated highschool
Took years to figure out that I wanted needed to go to school for something
Bounced around school, incurred debt, quit, paid off debt and reassessed life and goals

Enrolled in a state school (University of Rhode Island)
Started the International Engineering Program
Incurred debt
Spent a year abroad in Germany studying, doing a reasearch project, formula student, and working for BMW Group in Munich
Incurred debt
Earned degrees in Mechanical Engineering and German
Incurred debt

Was invited to pursue graduate school, tuition waived, research funded, small stipend
did not incur more debt, but deferred since i was still 'in school'
Loved the shit out of graduate research (hated the classes)
blew things up with a helium cannon, while it was on fire, and recorded it at 20,000fps
published 2 papers, presented at a conference and a symposium
prepared a third manuscript
Earned a masters
still had debt from undergrad.

Now work for the man, bored as hell, but getting paid enough to eliminate my embarrasing amount of debt within 3 years by living extremely modestly aside from my car project. Do your best in school, because it's extremely temporary in the grand scheme of life. Try to do internships and research if you can because this all counts as experience.



Things are going to change no matter what path you take. If I where to go back in time, I'd have told my past self to learn a second language, and go to school for free in Germany. But the important thing is to pursue something with a passion. It took me a couple years to figure out what it was, but it made the journey far more enjoyable. Another learned lesson is that after struggling with finances being on my own, you have to value saving far more than you can realize. Saving for a rainy day. Saving for the future and retirement, and by all means, living within your means. Something that isn't stressed or taught in school. Yes I incurred debt, but I honestly can't say that I'd have traded it as I needed to learn my lesson the hard way, because I'm a stubborn asshat like that. But more importantly the friends I've made abroad are some of my closest, and the experience in another culture was incredible.

Seems you have a better head on your shoulders and I wish I could be in your position. For now, I look for more interesting work and Grad programs back in Germany, but approach everything with the idea of doing your best, it'll only be temporary and along the way you'll find out where you best fit. Skilled trades and adaptable degrees are great. I wish I knew more about Data Science as that seems like it will be the hot topic in the future (and potentially saturated).

Lots of good stories and advice here so far. The only thing I can really contribute, is don't be afraid to follow what your heart tells you to do. Parents often have a hard time resisting the temptation to steer their children in the direction they think they should go. Also, don't ever be afraid to work hard and put your time into mastering a skill set. If you are persistent in working hard, learning from others, and learning from your mistakes, you will be just fine.

As far as the landscape industry is concerned, just like any industry, there are winners and there are losers. You need to make sure you are in the right vehicle for success. You might consider working in the industry for a while until you decide what you really want to do. You already have some experience, which will give you an advantage in making a reasonable salary in the meantime.

:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

this made my day.

Graduated H.S. in May 2010
Graduated with my B.S. Mechanical Engineering in May 2015

Could've paid most of it off as I went due to paid internships throughout my summers and the fact I worked on campus 15-20 hours a week, but instead took the "enjoy college while your in it" route and paid half as I went while enjoying wrenching on cars, buying a pretty decent car at the time my sophomore year, and dumping money on things I probably shouldn't have. I did learn a lot about what I know about cars now thanks to the money spent wrenching with buddies and made a lot of friends from track days, shows, etc so no regrets on having something enjoyable those years. Most of my internship interviewers loved the fact I was hands on with projects of my own (vs a book smart kid who never touched a wrench in his life) so who knows the car hobby could've helped me out from a job placement standpoint. Never had an issue finding a job whether it be part time in college or full time after college. Walked out with $25k in debt and a $5k medical bill (long story). All will be paid off in less than 2 years of graduation while living completely on my own, having bought, sold, and played with quite a few cars in the process, building up a savings emergency fund, and still putting a healthy sum of money into a retirement fund. Life is good for the most part, it'll be awesome once this huge monthly payment I'm making towards my debt is gone. Currently working in project management for an automotive / commerical / heavy duty cooling module (Radiators, Oil Coolers, Intercoolers, etc) Tier 1 supplier and it's going well. I'm personally not huge on being at a desk most of my day, but good pay, good benefits, products relevant of my interests, and decent amount of vacation fixes those sad feelings. While it would've been nice to not have as much college debt, I had fun with it so not a whole lot I would change.

If my advice is worth anything here's a few comments even though I'm pretty sure they've been mentioned.

If you are unsure what you want to do, go to a community college part time, keep working full time if you can, and save your money until you have something narrowed down. There's no shame in not knowing what you want to do yet. Too many times have I seen kids blindly taking general education classes at a 4 year college because they feel they have to go, end up switching majors 2+ times, and spending 6+ years to get a bachelors degree (or just dropping out) with far too much debt to escape from quickly. Kids that do this bury themselves in quite the hole without even realizing it sadly.

I'd only really spend the time going to a 4 year school and incurring debt if you know the job market outlook for what you want to go for is promising. Incurring debt for a job you can't find doesnt help you much. Prices vary a lot but just throwing out numbers, spending $40k+ to get a job that pays $40k a year isnt very attractive either. You could learn a trade and make the same $40k+ money with no (or very minimal) debt.

On the note of trades, if you have any local companies that offer apprenticeship programs for high school graduates I'd be all over that if they interest you. On the job training for a needed manufacturing position isn't a bad deal if you're confident you'll be with the company for enough time to "master" your skill. We have a few apprentices at my company, for being right out of high school they are in a pretty good position to grow within that career.

Tons of good advice. I'll add the following:

If you're not going to college for STEM, it's probably not worth it.

Start at a community college. Not only is it much cheaper, but the classes are laughably easy. I cruised my way to a community college 4.0 which, in turn, led to a nice scholarship when I transferred to a major university.

People assume debt is unilaterally terrible. It's not. Student loan debt will likely be some of the lowest interest debt you will ever have. I graduated university over a decade ago and still have student debt by choice. Continually putting money into a Vanguard IRA has proved to be a much, much better financial decision than paying off my 2.99% student debt.

Trades and the Military both both viable options, provided you get in young and advance quickly to preserve your body.

Whatever you do, grow your network. Your network is far, far, far more likely to land you a job than anything in your background. I've held several jobs over the past 11 years, and I only interviewed for one. Even in the age of the internet and EOE, a personal recommendation from the right person goes a long way.

Protect your reputation, professional and personal. It takes years to build, and just one bad decision to destroy.

You'll figure it out, man. If you would have told me 5 years ago that I'd be where I am now I would said you're crazy.

2007-2010
>Graduated High School (barely) in 2007 with a shit GPA - had pneumonia and strep throat TWICE my senior year and missed 50 days of school
>Rolled into the local college because I had no idea what the hell I was doing
>Discovered I loved mathematics and took everything I could at light speed to get out of the Keys
>Transferred to UCF for Mech. Engineering
>Got annihilated by the recession while living in Orlando
>Lost all work and my home
>Lived in bathtub at friend's apartment
>Returned home after 1 semester with less than 80 dollars to my name

2011-2014
>Go see doctor because I can't sleep
>"You're over 350lbs, pre-diabetic, heart is going to stop in your sleep"
>ohfuck.png
>Get slave job at outdoor restaurant
>Join a gym to lose weight
>Make a promise that if I can lose enough weight to join military then I'll join
>lose 150lbs
>Go to join Army as a Warrant Officer and find out at MEPS that I'm colorblind
>Flag on my medical raises questions and they find my MRI for my spine issues (degrading disc disease, spinal stenosis, bulging/compressed disc)
>Get permanently disqualified from all branches of the military due to being an insurance risk
>22 months of enlistment time and 3 years of work gone

2015-Present
>Used new found weight loss skills to become a personal trainer
>Contract as a private business out of the gym I trained at
>Small business owner with steady and dedicated client base
>Started my own powerlifting team and developing a brand
>Happy for the first time in a long time

I'm 28 now. My plan is to go back to school for Physical Therapy. I'm completely obsessed with the changes the human body can make and PT would just be an extension of personal training on a more professional level. It's going to be at least 5 years of school and I'll be close to my mid 30's by the time I'm done, but that's okay. If for some reason I hate it or it doesn't work out I'd be just as happy being a welder, electrician or a plumber. I envy those who get to use their hands for work.

Good luck, man. Nothing wrong with working hard but make sure you take time to enjoy this one life you have.

Hey, just to put a bug in your ear - if you're thinking about PT school, look into chiropractic, too. I'm a student at chiro school right now, and my roommate is a powerlifter out of Supertraining Gym (Mark Bell's joint) in Sacramento, and there are a lot of competitive bodybuilders/powerlifters in the school. A little different than PT, but if you have that interest in the human body, it might be a good fit. PM me if you want to talk about chiro/PT.

Not to derail the conversation, but these days I think a 3% student loan for a majority of your money is a bit of a dream based on personal experiences. Over half of my total debt was above 5% and that's the best that was offered through the FAFSA loans. To be more specific, I had 6 loan groups upon graduation ranging from 3-6.5%. Obviously there are ways around this with good debt management and it's true you aren't losing much at a 3% rate as its essentially inflation correction, but regardless I don't feel like education loans aren't something to take lightly without a plan.

Direct federal loans are 3.75%
Perkins loans are 5%
Wells Fargo Private loans range from 6.49%-15% (depending on credit score)

Refraining...

Never said they were. My comment was directed at the fact that your education can't ever be taken away from you. Unlike a car loan, where the secured asset depreciates, or a home, which may increase or decrease in value. Still not the right move for everyone, but there are an awful lot of financial "gurus" (looking at you Dave Ramsey) screaming that all debt is bad debt, which is idiotic and unrealistic. It's sweeping generalization that seems to have caught on, because it's a much easier mantra than "I need to exercise fiscal responsibility and self control."
</thread hijack>

No it isn't. Being able to afford payments on things is not the same as being able to afford something.
With the exception of grad school, there is no good reason to take on debt to go to college. Just like your degree, the debt is something that can never be taken from you (ie. bankruptcy).
In the case of the young man we are addressing, I think the absolute best thing we could be counseling him on, is being wise with money.
Save now, regardless of what career or school path you choose, and learn how to manage a budget and cash. If you don't figure it out now, it will absolutely bite you in the ass later.

Maybe the 3.75% rate is decent to work from for now, but who's to say it will stay there? I wouldn't bank on it (no pun intended). historically federal loans have fluctuated a lot, we'll see what direction Trump takes things
FinAid Loans Historical Interest Rates

As said before, sure nobody can take your education from you, but there's no quick way to relieve your unsecured debt either. Example: Make a dumb mistake with buying a car out of your budget and you can sell the car to pay off all or majority of the loan. Make a dumb mistake with your education loans and have fun with paying the feds interest half your life. There are ways to lead a debt free lifestyle if you're smart about it. About the only realistic debt anyone should have to carry would be a mortgage, but most look at that as a long term investment so I'd consider that an exception. Cash is king, but maybe I'm in the minority here with that thought.

Except you can pay off a debt. You've really only named a worst case scenario.
Given the option of being in debt and having a (useful) degree or not being in debt and not having a degree, I'll pick having a degree everytime. A lot of people just can't realistically pay their way through insane tuitions or crazy housing prices. I make a decent salary and I still have to take loans because of housing prices around here. I do put a hefty dent in my loans by paying them a couple times a month but I couldn't do it without loans

I also don't agree with the sweeping generalization, fiscal responsibility and self control has worked out well for me. My only debt is my student loan which is more than worth it.

The aversion to debt at all costs is a seriously limiting strategy. Debt is a tool, and like all tools, it can either be used to build or to destroy. I'd rather not further derail this thread, so suffice it to say that I believe that debt incurred to get an education is usually worth it. That's not to say that you should go out and spend $50k a year at a private liberal arts college to get a degree in music, but smartly employed student loans will more than pay for themselves.

I encourage you to look into some of the opportunities the military offers. If you don't know what you want to do with your life, or if you're not a great student, enlisting can be a solid way to go, with the caveats that others have mentioned above. If you have strong standardized test scores and decide that you definitely want to go to college, I'd recommend that you look into ROTC. ROTC allows you be an an (almost) normal college student and then commission as an officer upon graduation. They typically offer good scholarships (depending upon their need for your chosen degree) in exchange for a four year commitment after graduation. I personally took the ROTC path and received a three year scholarship which, in conjunction with some matching financial aid from my school, allowed me to attend an expensive, relatively prestigious, private engineering school for a very affordable cost (~1/2 of first year's tuition).

As others have stated above, the military isn't all good and you should be aware of some of the downsides. While you're in the military owns you. They chose where you live (and a lot of bases are in craptacular locations), when you move, what you wear, and to a sometimes scary extent what you can do on your own time. It makes it impossible to put down roots and can make it more difficult to have a family (although many do). On the plus side, you'll gain valuable experience (choose a career field with a civilian equivalent) in a field that can't be outsourced to non-US citizens. Also, and this shouldn't be minimized, you'll have the opportunity to do and see cool stuff while working with some amazing people (your mileage may vary depending upon service and career field). I'll leave it at that for now, but if you have any questions feel free to PM.

^Also don't forget that if you can squeeze a rating that gets you a security clearance, it'll be a huge bonus for after... doing 5yrs enlisted and getting a TSCI with guaranteed free college after and a bonus clue about the field you want to get into so you pick an actual useful major is a big deal.

Clearance is only helpful if you want to live somewhere that gets military contracts. It can be a huge plus though if you are in certain fields. Back in 2010 Charleston was full of IT jobs that needed a clearance. In 2017 the landscape has changed and military contracts are no longer a big part of the IT sector, so a clearance is less useful.

​​​​​​​But yes if you join the military I would try to get one anyways just to have in case.

Chlamydia is curable too, but it doesn't mean it's wise to get it.

You're acting like it has to be either or. It does not.
I am aware that there are reasons that people take out school loans that some could consider justifiable, but it usually isn't necessary. If someone wants to start another thread to argue about debt, I would be happy to say more.
In the case of this particular individual, who has no clear goal yet, school debt is a bad idea. I am simply cautioning him against it, at the very least, until he figures out what he wants to do.


I did this and it paid off eventually.

OP, here is my story if you are interested.

Out of high-school, I went to community college for one semester.
Halfway through that first semester, I realized I was only there because people were telling me too, and I enlisted in the navy.
I knew I wanted to be an aviation rescue swimmer, so I picked the corresponding rate and made sure it was in my contract.
Note: just because you pick a rate, does not mean you are guaranteed that job. You must still pass whatever schools are required, so make sure you pick something within your capability.
I watched 90% or so of my peers go to some other rate, or worse, become undesignated because they couldn't pass the schools.
I made it through my roughly year and a half of schooling and graduated as the honor man, which meant I got to choose where I would be stationed.
I picked San Diego, and I chose a squadron that had a focus on special operations because that is what interested me at the time.
I ended up becoming a crew chief as well, and spent the remainder of my last five years doing really awesome stuff.
After nearly taking a dirt nap for the umpteenth time, I decided that I would finish out my enlistment, give civilian life a try, and actually see my wife for more than a month or two a year.
I don't regret a second of being in the military, but it was time for me to move on.

Because I did not pick a military job with a civilian equivalent, I had retrain.
I moved back to my home state and used the GI bill to get my EMT and Advanced EMT certifications, which was good experience but embarrassingly bad pay.
As soon as I got a job on an ambulance, I finished my associates, which landed me a well-paying job in a research lab.
I talked the lab into letting me work reduced hours so that I could finish my bachelors at a Purdue satellite which accepted all of my community college credits.

When I was settled in with a nice routine, I realized that I missed having a little action in my life, so I took a hard left turn and got a job as a full-time firefighter.
Due to the competitive nature of the hiring process, I would very likely not have gotten it without my military experience.
I managed to keep the research job as a part time gig as well, and my bachelors will likely ensure that I receive a promotion or even the position of chief in the future.

My one and only regret during all of this? I stupidly took on debt in the last two years of getting my bachelors because I wan't willing to spread it out over an extra year or two or change my lifestyle.

Anyway, good luck to you. If you have questions about anything I posted, feel free to PM me.

If you'd spread it out over a year or two, you would have used up time. What are two years of your life worth? If the education was worth it, i.e. if you picked the right field, chances are that working for two years would have offset a good chunk of the cost and 2 years work experience would have made you competitive for more advanced jobs in the field.

There are costs to everything. You might have done well with the money side of things, but you're not really taking the time you 'spent' into consideration.

You legitimately decided to change your strategy and interests a half dozen times.

Debt is not bad if you're playing a long game. If you're going 200k in for a psych degree (no offense) from a private school giving you no money, then you're going to have a bad time especially if you're not planning on using the degree for anything. If you bust your ass in high school, schools will throw money at you to help boost their averages on GPA/SAT.

If you're just going to school because that's what everyone is telling you to do and you have no idea what you want to do, then you're often better served taking some time off and figuring that out while taking classes. College won't teach you jack about most vocational trades. A lot of folks interested in those end up going to college because that's what everyone tells them. It's also why tech high schools are awesome.

In high school, I was with an Air Force Junior ROTC program. I graduated top of my JROTC class (which isn't saying much), applied for Air Force Scholarship through JROTC, was awarded 100% tuition to any school with an AFROTC program conditionally in the degree field of meteorology (Gawd that would have been a f*cking tits Air Force Job) Within a month of being awarded the scholarship, I had no fewer than a Dozen unsolicited letters from schools all across the country stating that they would match the Air Force's 100% tuition scholarship with a 4-year school scholarship covering 100% room and board - literally I could have gone to any of a dozen well-respected universities for a 4 year bachelors degree in atmospheric science for absolutely zero costs. The only condition being that once I graduated college I would have a 6-year commitment as an active duty Air Force officer - no really, not a bad gig at all.

I'm an introvert - and not just any introvert - I'm a strong introvert - I don't make new friends easily and I tend to hold on to the ones I have. I just couldn't see leaving home for 4+6=10 years at a minimum. Instead, I joined the National Guard when I hit 17 1/2 year old. In Ohio, the National Guard pays 100% tuition to any state school.

Took the ASVAB - had 212 career fields available to me - decided to be a field artillery fire direction specialist. During the physical, found out I was red/green colorblind - had 3 career fields available to me - chose to be a radio operator.

Once in college, I was earning my 100% tuition scholarship, my drill pay (1 weekend/month for a few hundred bucks), the Reserve forces Mongomery GI Bill ($272/month) and a GI Bill "Kicker" for my career field ($200/month). After a minor scholarship from high school, pell grants, university grant, etc., it was just enough to meet all of my college bills - not bad for 1 weekend's work/month.

Joined Army ROTC my junior year. The GI Bill kicker increased to $350. Also started receiving a "stipend" of $400/month for ROTC. (I believe they even get a massive "housing" addition nowadays).

Graduated, Commissioned as a new Lieutenant into the Ohio National Guard (No active duty commitment). Still get to kick around home.

Now, many years later, still an officer in the Ohio National Guard. I did end up taking loans for school stuff in my Soph-Senior years - but the grand total was ~$8k. I think as of this month, I still have a total of ~$110 left to pay - 2 more easy payments away.

Overall, it was a great program for me. Essentially paid for college - any degree field of my choice - and came out of it as a military officer - which is a very respectable thing. On any given weekend, you might find me either out at my Guard unit, in charge of 180 fine Soldiers and their equipment, or at home, enjoying a fun day with my parents, best friends, or nieces.

For me, it's a best of both worlds scenario.

In my case, it would have made no difference at all, which is why I said that I regretted not doing it that way.
As I also said, I could have just changed my lifestyle a bit and done it in the same amount of time.
This is what trips up most college kids now. They want the same standard of living as they had when they lived with their parents.
Otherwise, you are right that the debt could be offset by higher wages. The truth is that the vast majority of people who take out debt do not offset what they owe and end up buried by it.


Yep, I changed things up once after the military in deciding to become a firefighter, but the goal was always to work in R&D, which I still do. Starting over life from scratch without the support of your family has some interesting challenges.
The EMS thing was a way to earn money while going to school. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually pay worth a damn. Hard lesson learned.

While we disagree on how much debt a college person should have and when it should be taken on, I think we all mostly think the same way about this.
Useless degrees are a waste of money any way you look at it.

Yup, we agree on more than we disagree on. I completely agree that people go into college thinking that their interests will allow them to do whatever they want without looking into the market. The beauty of it is that you can study something that you like which has further opportunity, while also studying something you enjoy. That's why double majors and minors exist...

I actually wanted to apply to the air force academy when I was in HS. I wasn't a citizen at the time though. I didn't know it was an option at the time to apply without citizenship haha. It's probably for the better though... I ended up having health issues that probably would disqualify me from the military. I thought about it when I got into medical school.

Edit: Monk, I will add that I'm likely going to be about 200-300k in debt after I finish grad school and it fucking terrifies me. The only way I've been able to rationalize this is to promise myself that half my salary from my first real job is going to go towards paying this shit off no matter how much temptation there is to live like a baller. It's definitely a delayed gratification type of situation...

My best friend was a straight A student in high school. Went to college on a full ride air Force scholarship - engineering. Learned about counterstrike in his first quarter. Became exceptional at owning the rest of the dorm. Was put on academic probation when q1 grades were posted. Continued to be exceptional at counterstrike. Was dropped from the ROTC program after Q2 grades posted. Immediately dropped school, got an apartment, started working at the local grocery chain then the wholesale club store, made it to assistant manager, left for a bank hq office after his retail management career stagnated. Supervised the call center and now manages some intranet application development. He has complained for the last 12 years that even though he is a superior performer to most of his co-workers, he is discriminated against for pay and position because he doesn't have a college degree. Having known him for probably the last 16 years, I don't deny that he is probably a top performer. Indeed, he has risen very quickly in the ranks everywhere he has been to a lower management position. At the same time, it's also perfectly legal to "discriminate" based on education, and had he completed college (while maintaining the same work ethic), I think he would be easily bringing in 30-45% more income. I'm quite confident at this point that he'll never go get a degree, but he'll always be well behind the curve for the type of work that he does because of it. When it comes to filtering resumes, education is an easy way to throw half of the stack in the circular file, and when it comes to negotiating salary for a promotion, it's an easy way to justify a filling a higher job at the lowest available pay rate.