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Old 10-17-2009, 07:45 PM   #61
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In the bacteria and virus cases, thats more adaptation than evolution. That aside, there is still PLENTY of evidence, or proof as I like to call it.
I stand corrected:

Antibiotic Resistance of Bacteria: An Example of Evolution in Action? - Answers in Genesis

"The mechanisms of mutation and natural selection aid bacteria populations in becoming resistant to antibiotics. However, mutation and natural selection also result in bacteria with defective proteins that have lost their normal functions.

Evolution requires a gain of functional systems for bacteria to evolve into man—functioning arms, eyeballs, and a brain, to name a few.

Mutation and natural selection, thought to be the driving forces of evolution, only lead to a loss of functional systems. Therefore, antibiotic resistance of bacteria is not an example of evolution in action but rather variation within a bacterial kind. It is also a testimony to the wonderful design God gave bacteria, master adapters and survivors in a sin-cursed world."

Thanks, I never would have known that otherwise. I never knew the bacteria lost anything by being more resistant.
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:50 PM   #62
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In the bacteria and virus cases, thats more adaptation than evolution. That aside, there is still PLENTY of evidence, or proof as I like to call it.
Adaptation in bacteria and virus cases is evolution, they change their genoma by mutation or incorporation of some other organisms genoma. I guess one might say that incorporating foreign DNA is adaptaton, but still, you gotta evolve the ability to do so

Edit: gotta respond to the post just over this.
To whom do they speak? People who understand the concept behind evolution quickly identifies that as utter bullshit. And their regular fanbase doesn't really need any more brainwashing I would presume.
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Old 10-17-2009, 07:53 PM   #63
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Adaptation in bacteria and virus cases is evolution, they change their genoma by mutation or incorporation of some other organisms genoma. I guess one might say that incorporating foreign DNA is adaptaton, but still, you gotta evolve the ability to do so
Its hard to distinguish adaptation from evolution, but I still feel its more adaptation than evolution. Evolution I think is more broad and universal to a species/life form as a whole. Bacteria and Viruses only change in their strain. The rest adapt to their situation accordingly.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:01 PM   #64
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No.

It is the other way around isn't it? If you have a strong faith in something, you dont really look or care for reason? As you said yourself.
IOW, you can't have one without bolstering the other. It doesn't matter which one is first, either way, you create your own reality; one that is close to Reality, or one that is not. As for me, my ultimate reality is one of faith. I've had too many experiences to discount it now.


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I mean, there is a lot, a whole lot... in fact, all the scientific evidence that exists in nature points to evolution. As for creationism, there tend to be a lot of explanations constructed to explain why the evidence points elsewhere. Usually it is something like "god works in mysterious ways".
I do not defend Creationism as a matter of Science, I can't. But, I am happy not to. To me, the question is unimportant in comparison to how good a person I am, and if I am doing the right things at the right time. It's academic. As for the gap between science and religion, that gap is closing. However, it does not stop discussions like these just yet.

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I know that it is impossible to prove that god doesnt exist, and I respect that a lot of people need or want to have faith in god, allah, buddha, trees and rocks, asgard and whatnot. What gets to me is the tendency to toss evidence aside because it doesnt fit the model of life one believes in.
No tossing here, I just can't explain it.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:06 PM   #65
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The one about faith and reason? I understood it perfectly. But to me, there is no such thing as faith since there is no higher power to believe in.
So, how many parts have you put on your Miata then? How much money have you spent? And for what? For no insurance that you -will- have a car that starts and does what you want it to? You have NO faith that the car will start and run? NONE?

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IMHO faith is an outdated concept, a leftover from the time when early humans couldn't explain what was going on around them (the sun comes up, it rains, thunder, etc.) and made up characters and stories to explain it away as some sort of magic. Now we know better, but we have yet to fully graduate from our collective need for some other explanation.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to pray for my team to win, do a rain dance, and sacrifice a peasant to the sun god.

You have no concept of the irony you have just presented me with; Faith stems from the right side of the brain, the emotional side. Reason, obviously the left side. How would you exist as a human being without a balance of both? Before you answer, consider the fact that you answered with an emotional response, sarcasm. If faith is an outdated concept, you had better forget using sarcasm or wit, and just stick with the facts.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:08 PM   #66
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Well, from my understanding (I'm a medical student, not a biologist) bacteria evolves their own toxins as well as resistances. This is similar to a mammal evolving claws in my book, even if the claw-thing is a little more complex.

Adaptation and evolution is the same thing, adaptation is the evolving of a lifeform.

(If I mix stuff up, I apologize, english is not my native language).

Edit: fahrvergnugen>> It is actually nice to find a creationist that is reasonable enough not to burst into flames when evolution is the subject.

If i might clarify my previous statement about faith and reason. What I meant is that when reason tells you that your viewpoint on something is wrong (i.e. evidence presents itself about it), then you change your beliefs into what seems most reasonable then. That is the way of good science. Very few scientists are refusing to change their beliefs about something when presented with solid evidence. I suppose what I really meant was blind faith.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:11 PM   #67
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Well, from my understanding (I'm a medical student, not a biologist) bacteria evolves their own toxins as well as resistances. This is similar to a mammal evolving claws in my book, even if the claw-thing is a little more complex.

Adaptation and evolution is the same thing, adaptation is the evolving of a lifeform.

(If I mix stuff up, I apologize, english is not my native language).
But like you said, its a complexity thing. That would be like saying growing a new skin cell over damaged tissue is evolution. Or white blood cells fighting off a virus. Something on that small of a scale and so simple in design, I can't really accept as evolution. Our bodies create things but its adaptation not evolution. Each individual does its own thing, its not on a population wide scale.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:13 PM   #68
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How many ******* times do I have to say this... Bacteria and virus and all that bullshit is nothing but the devil's work drifting you all away from the light they dont contribute ($$) anything to the church, they are not mentioned in the bible. Therefore Bacteria, and Virus are not life-forms and evolutions does not exist.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:16 PM   #69
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How many ******* times do I have to say this... Bacteria and virus and all that bullshit is nothing but the devil's work drifting you all away from the light they dont contribute ($$) anything to the church, they are not mentioned in the bible. Therefore Bacteria, and Virus are not life-forms and evolutions does not exist.
They are gods fingernail clippings. Viruses and bacteria that is.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:25 PM   #70
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But like you said, its a complexity thing. That would be like saying growing a new skin cell over damaged tissue is evolution. Or white blood cells fighting off a virus. Something on that small of a scale and so simple in design, I can't really accept as evolution. Our bodies create things but its adaptation not evolution. Each individual does its own thing, its not on a population wide scale.
Not exactly. It would be more like the new skin that healed over the wound would develop greater elasticity or become harder or something similar. But that cannot happen. What could happen is that in a harsh enviroment, where one would get cuts and scratches all the time, that could lead to life threatening infections, the individuals with the most tough skin would survive in greater percentage. The adaptation (having tough skin because of some random DNA-change) leads to better survival, the adapted lifeforms will dominate the habitat = evolution.

I think I might have been unclear. Its not evolution in the individual, but adaptaton is part of evolution. Adaptation is a random event though when evolution on the other hand is pure fitness. We are saying the exact same thing
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:28 PM   #71
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Not exactly. It would be more like the new skin that healed over the wound would develop greater elasticity or become harder or something similar. But that cannot happen. What could happen is that in a harsh enviroment, where one would get cuts and scratches all the time, that could lead to life threatening infections, the individuals with the most tough skin would survive in greater percentage. The adaptation (having tough skin bcause of some random DNA-change) leads to better survival, the adapted lifeforms will dominate the habitat = evolution.

I think I might have been unclear. Its not evolution in the individual, but adaptaton is part of evolution. Adaptation is a random event though when evolution on the other hand is pure fitness. We are saying the exact same thing
I agree adaptation is a part of evolution, but adaptation I think is more of a micro scale, evolution is a macro scale. Evolution in the individual doesn't matter when it won't change the population as a whole. The 'family tree" is too broad and spread out . But yeah, I think we are on pretty much the same page.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:34 PM   #72
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Evolution in the individual doesn't matter when it won't change the population as a whole.
It always start in an indvidual, and then this individuals offspring survives to a greater extent than their fellows. After a while, some ten to thousands of generations depending on the spieces i presume, the change in genes that was the adaptation, will be present in the whole speices. Because of this mutation meaning "less dying" or better fitness.

NO genetic change can ever affect a whole speices in a given moment, this stuff takes time.

Could have been what you meant, I just wanted to clarify.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:39 PM   #73
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It always start in an indvidual, and then this individuals offspring survives to a greater extent than their fellows. After a while, some ten to thousands of generations depending on the spieces i presume, the change in genes that was the adaptation, will be present in the whole speices. Because of this mutation meaning "less dying" or better fitness.

NO genetic change can ever affect a whole speices in a given moment, this stuff takes time.

Could have been what you meant, I just wanted to clarify.
That was my point. Changes do occur, but it takes a LONG time for it to be a more broad and widespread change. Especially when say in a body, a virus may mutate and adapt, but if it is wiped out it never matters to the rest of the global population. That makes the evolution even that much slower.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:44 PM   #74
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Whatever you guys can discuss all your discovery channel theories over and over again. Baby Jesus Christ is gonna get upset one of these days and will turn all non-believer into chimps, and then put them in the zoo for all the enlighten ones to compel upon your lost souls. Im gonna pray for you all.
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:47 PM   #75
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Whatever you guys can discuss all your discovery channel theories over and over again. Baby Jesus Christ is gonna get upset one of these days and will turn all non-believer into chimps, and then put them in the zoo for all the enlighten ones to compel upon your lost souls. Im gonna pray for you all.
Him changing us into chimps implies de-evolution... you can't have de-evolution without evolution. You lose you bible beater scum!!!
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Old 10-17-2009, 08:52 PM   #76
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Really digging the heated Bio I debate.

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Old 10-17-2009, 08:55 PM   #77
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Him changing us into chimps implies de-evolution... you can't have de-evolution without evolution. You lose you bible beater scum!!!
Wow we do need the sarcasm font. I thought "Baby Jesus Christ" wouldve given it away.

PS: you lose, Obama Jesus is omnipotent, so he can do whatever he wants, just like the 14 year old that wear extra ******* small Daisy Dukes at the mall.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:01 PM   #78
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Whatever you guys can discuss all your discovery channel theories over and over again. Baby Jesus Christ is gonna get upset one of these days and will turn all non-believer into chimps, and then put them in the zoo for all the enlighten ones to compel upon your lost souls. Im gonna pray for you all.
Dec 21, 2012. Mark your calendars.

On another note, I just remembered something funny my middle school math teacher said. He's almost bald, so therefor he's more evolved than all those hairy people. It was his excuse for having a horrible comb over.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:05 PM   #79
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Dec 21, 2012. Mark your calendars.

On another note, I just remembered something funny my middle school math teacher said. He's almost bald, so therefor he's more evolved than all those hairy people. It was his excuse for having a horrible comb over.
Lizards rule the world! Or does it just go for bald monkeys? In either case, I suppose he got laid a lot.
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Old 10-17-2009, 09:10 PM   #80
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Wow we do need the sarcasm font. I thought "Baby Jesus Christ" wouldve given it away.

PS: you lose, Obama Jesus is omnipotent, so he can do whatever he wants, just like the 14 year old that wear extra ******* small Daisy Dukes at the mall.
Apparently we do, I figured "bible beater scum " would have given it away. I caught your sarcasm.
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