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Old 12-18-2008, 06:11 PM   #21
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Nebraska is awesome.
As a lifetime resident, I think that is the first time I have ever seen such words typed or uttered.

Marking my time until I retire and move south-ish. Thinking Eastern TN or KY.
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Old 12-18-2008, 08:26 PM   #22
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Ah, but you underestimate my disdain for LA and CA in general. Too many crazy people here. Some good folks (most have miatas), but the rest are just wierd. I value things like grass in my yard, and it taking 10 minutes to get somewhere that is 10 miles away. You know, the simple things.
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Old 12-18-2008, 08:31 PM   #23
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^ I heard that in the movie "Good Morning Vietnam".
Shack! (For you non-Military types, "Direct Hit!")


SamNavy / Koto -

None of the services would let me go SOF due to my eyesight, leaving the technology advantage to the AF and the USN. The AF Recruiter found a training slot for me first. Never regretted the decision. In fact, the only reason I punched at 20 vice 30 was for the family.

- L

PS - Offutt *sucks*; any place the tank on the back of a toilet can freeze solid and crack in a heated house is NOT on my list of inhabitable locations.
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Old 12-18-2008, 08:37 PM   #24
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I'm sure you've got the same idea... 30yrs SgtMajor and couple acres outside of Bragg doesn't sound so bad!
Kinda. Mine involves WoC school and about 30 years in though, and I'd retire in Jacksonville. I already have one rental property too so it looks like we think alike.

Congrats on the shooter position, looks like a blast!
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Old 12-18-2008, 09:11 PM   #25
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Kinda... looks like a blast!
Did you just make a funny? I get it... "blast"... this guy kills me, and he'll be here all nite ladies!
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:55 PM   #26
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Wasn't trying for a funny actually, I just wanted to use a word other than "cool".
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Old 12-19-2008, 10:27 AM   #27
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Sam, you're working as a shooter specifically for the next two years, or flight deck operations in general?
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:32 PM   #28
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Image of Dr. Hiedi Kraft - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Sam, talks about being a line officer vs a non-line officer... Even the Navy Psychologists carry guns. See above.

Anyway, I'm Navy, MSC (non line), and will be a Navy psychologist someday in the near future. I'm an O-1 (Ensign) with 10 years and previously was enlisted in the USAF. I should be O-2 (Lieutenant J.G.) sometime in the next 6 months.

Mark

Last edited by Markp; 12-21-2008 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:08 PM   #29
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Mark, Did I just read that right. You're an O-1 after 10 years of service? Or you have 10 years ahead of you?

I still consider the Navy or the Air Force sometimes even though I just graduated with my B.S.
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:45 PM   #30
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Mark was in the AF some time ago... I think he had a break. In any case, if his AF time transfers and is counted, he will actually be an O-1E. "E" stands for PRIOR ENLISTED. It's worth a little extra pay and housing allowance. Plus it tends to carry a little extra weight with the troops to know you were one of them once.

Joe, I'll be shooter on the Nimitz.
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:15 AM   #31
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IIRC you can have the "E" designator on your grade all the way through O3, but once you reach O4 it goes away.
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:34 PM   #32
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"Mark, Did I just read that right. You're an O-1 after 10 years of service? "

Mark is just a slow learner, that's all....

Seriously, I was honored that Mark asked me to administer his oath when joining the USN.

I graduated from Army Airborne School as an officer cadet back in August of 1981 (gig pits, PT in boots, and men exercised bare-chested). I'm still in the Army (currently mobilized...again) and intend to stay in until I'm forced out. Signal Corps 25A - one-size fits all Signal Officer. I wouldn't trade my experiences for all the tea in China....

Barry
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
^ I heard that in the movie "Good Morning Vietnam".
"What does 3 up and 3 down mean to you?!?!"

"End of an inning?"

That movie was hilarious...Robin Williams is one of my fav actors. I'm trying to think of one movie I didn't like. I can't come up with one.
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:51 PM   #34
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Signal Corps 25A - one-size fits all Signal Officer. I wouldn't trade my experiences for all the tea in China....

Barry
SIGO in the HOUSE!!! All of my SIGOs were ******* awesome. By far the coolest officers I had run into while I was in, and I found most officers were pretty cool.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:47 PM   #35
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Mark is just a slow learner, that's all....
I don't think so. I wager he's a masochist. He's getting "re-started" at the age many of us retire from the Military...

- L

(BTW Barry, it's about time you showed up!)
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:30 PM   #36
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I always had that much more respect for the officers who I knew had been enlisted before. Same with Warrants, because they're almost certain to have had enlisted service. With RLOs you can't tell by looking at them if they have or not, unless maybe if they're in their class As.
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Old 12-23-2008, 03:02 PM   #37
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I think all officers should be required to do 2yrs as an enlisted soldier. That way they get an idea of how things work from the bottom first, then when they start being at the top they can understand what they are asking their enlisted soldiers to do.

Let them come in as an E-4. Imagine the respect the LTs would get if they were able to make E5 in their 2 yrs, on top of what they would get for having done the crap jobs as a junior enlisted.
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:30 AM   #38
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I think all officers should be required to do 2yrs as an enlisted soldier.... Imagine the respect the LTs would get...
Ray, I don't know what your military background is, but your sentiment is very similar to what I hear from a lot of my junior enlisted. I'm going to give you the same insight I try to give them.

A lot of my new young troops (and I get a lot straight from Great Lakes direct to my shop) feel entitled to stand on equal footing as officers the day they show up. "Why does he get to go to lunch for 2 hours and I have to stay and grease this fitting?" I'll tell you why having an officer corps comprised of a significant number of prior enlisted would badly hurt the military.

If you'd ask a WWII or Vietnam enlisted man where they thought they stood the day they showed up to their command, the feeling would be vastly different than todays soldier/sailor. The effectiveness of the chain of command of the past lied in the belief that officers are better than enlisted. It's not me talking here, but centuries of the military rank structure that dictates an enlisted life is not equal to an officers life. A conscript or draft military exaggerates this belief to that of inscrutible fact. This goes back historically to times when a man's "commission" was exactly that... his father was wealthy enough that his "officership" could be bought by sending him to a military academy for training. If you had the money, you could be an officer. Enlisted men did not come from that same social caste, and whether on the street or in uniform, simply held a lower status in society. That gap has gotten smaller and smaller as political correctness and other social evolutions like it have progressed from the civilian sector to the military. Mandatory equality however, has no place in the military.

The relationship between boss and secretary is different than LT/Grunt... especially in a combat team. I'm an aviator, and the crew of my plane is all officers... but I promise you, there comes a time for all warriors when YOU ABSOLUTELY DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE THE OTHER GUY, and YOU DON'T WANT HIM KNOWING WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE YOU! Whether that time is in combat or later back at HQ filling out the paperwork.

The middle-ground between officers and soldiers/sailors are non-commisioned officers. Chief's and Sergeants are the leadership that has a foot on both sides of the fence. Good NCO leadership, and a good relationship between the officer and the NCO, means the Officer never needs to know the toils and trials of "what it's like" to be Enlisted. If the officer did know just how shitty the troops had it, he might not feel like ordering them into battle, or ordering them to clean the latrine. The entire CHAIN OF COMMAND collapses right there. It doesn't even have to got that far... the instant an officer starts to feel sorry for the troops over the fact that it's less fair for them to grease **** while he gets lunch... things get ugly. NOW, an officer who doesn't take care of his troops is a piece of **** who needs to get his *** kicked by his Chief, but Senior Officers should recognize the lack of potential in a Junior Officer and unfuck that guy... or the Chief should go to the CO and unfuck the CO.

Anyways, here's why you don't want what you're asking... here's the thing most troops who wish Officers knew what it was like to be them never think of:
I know a lot of "PRIOR E's", and I can tell you that there are only 1 type. The type that knows every ******* trick in the book and doesn't take any **** from anybody... especially a troop trying to pull some ****. If I ever had a situation I couldn't handle, or a sailor who was saying some **** I'd never heard about before, I'd just go ask one of my "Prior-E" Lieutenant friends who would say "Let me handle that guy"... and few hours later, that sailor would come into my office and apologize for being a douche... and there would be no more problem... that is if I didn't necessarily want the Chief involved. Mandating Prior-Enlisted time to become an officer is the last thing any Enlisted wants to happen... you couldn't get away with **** ever again... EVER!

You mention respect, and I tell you that it has nothing to do with where you come from. I know plenty of Prior-E's who are raging douche's. They were **** as enlisted and they're **** as officers. They made rank by stepping on anybody not as ruthless as them... and the troops hate them because a reputation like that you cannot escape. On the other hand, some of the best officers I know come from wealth... and I mean filthy ******* rich and pay $300 for an oil-change in their BMW, and the troops know it and they still love them and would charge into a raging fire to pull him out of it and try not to mess up the guy's $100 haircut. There are an equal amount of good and bad examples from all walks.

Anyways, I hope I made some sense. You know I do my own oil changes and all... so I hope I don't sound like some ******* officer who "doesn't get it".
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Old 12-24-2008, 06:56 PM   #39
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Ray -

I *somewhat* agree with SamNavy. You don't want ALL officers to be prior enlisted. A mixed bag tends to find equilibrium pretty well. However, I do agree with the USMC approach; all officer candidates should complete enlisted boot camp prior to attending officer candidate school. - This gives the fresh LTs (Ensigns) a taste of the grunt's world and in turn each grunt on the line knows, if nothing more, the junior officer telling him to "charge that hill" has walked a mile in his shoes.

In each branch of the Service there are definitely those wired to be bottom-of-the-barrell, tech-savvy and leaders. Not every Non-Comm is a leader, nor is every commissioned degree-bearer. (This is why the Army used to have a Tech-tier and a NCO-tier; increases in pay-grade, but not necessarily responsibility.)

Thankfully, the NCOs (and especially SNCOs) tend to police themselves; grooming those with potential, mentoring those that "don't get it" and minimizing the impact of those that "don't belong". And the Officers tend to do the same within their ranks. Sometimes, you'll find cross-pollenation where an O will grow an E or vice versa.

All in all, a well disciplined, highly motivated group of volunteers doing complex jobs in adverse conditions for moderate pay and variable appreciation from the masses they support.

OK, time to get off the soap-box...

- L
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Old 12-28-2008, 11:42 AM   #40
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I know a lot of "PRIOR E's", and I can tell you that there are only 1 type. The type that knows every ******* trick in the book and doesn't take any **** from anybody... especially a troop trying to pull some ****. If I ever had a situation I couldn't handle, or a sailor who was saying some **** I'd never heard about before, I'd just go ask one of my "Prior-E" Lieutenant friends who would say "Let me handle that guy"... and few hours later, that sailor would come into my office and apologize for being a douche... and there would be no more problem...

Anyways, I hope I made some sense. You know I do my own oil changes and all... so I hope I don't sound like some ******* officer who "doesn't get it".
LOL, Well said Sam.

I agree, you do not want all your officers to be prior enlisted. Regarding respect though, I do seem to get a bit more credibility when dealing with enlisted guys in my profession... I am also expected to be a bit more together than the average O-1. The problem with all new O-1's being prior enlisted is that you also lose some of the flexibility that junior troops have in getting over on young officers. Nothing worse than finding out your new O-1 is prior enlisted, because A: He's gonna know every trick in the book and B: You're gonna be expected to do more by him.

A small percentage of prior enlisted officers is a good thing, like senior NCO's they provide a bridge between the communities. They provide hope for the average enlisted person who really would often rather be an officer (at least until becoming an NCO.) The military is by design a caste system, but the opportunity for the masses to advance forward is important, even if only a few are afforded the opportunity.

Now with regards to Barry's comment (and Larry too): I am a masochist and a slow learner, so slow in fact that they needed to put me through 4 years of school and a 1 year internship before setting me free on the troops. Speaking of which ... 2 years will be coming up this July and I will be advancing to JG.

Mark

PS - Hope you all are having a great holiday and Barry glad to see you back in service.
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