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Old 04-19-2007, 01:18 PM   #1
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Default Hydra Pricing?

I sent an email to FM, but maybe you guys can fill me in on this...


Why is the retail for the Hydra only 1500, but yet FM is selling it for 1995?

Is there something I'm missing here?
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:40 PM   #2
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cause FM laods it with maps cause they wanted andy to spend an extra 400$. I believe theres comes with all the sensors needed to make it run. as well. it is still competitive with the link. Wich i am not sure about now but in the past sold for 1700 dollars. also the customer support has to be worth 1K dollars. i say ZPI needs to get in the EMS racket and branch out into miatas
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:50 PM   #3
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FM includes the Wideband O2, which accounts for a big chunk of the price difference. Unless the $1500 you quoted comes with the wideband sensor.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:10 PM   #4
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Yeah, I got the reply from Jeremy..

Quote:
Hi Sean,

We also include the ATS, WBO2, and mounting bracket along with the Hydra and the adaptor harness for that price. 90-97 cars also get a knock sensor. Basically, we set it up to be a complete package..

===================
Jeremy Ferber
Technical Sales Manager

That's a pretty decent deal, i would have bought the wideband anyway.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:33 PM   #5
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plus the unlimited emails to jeremy to solve map issues...
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:42 PM   #6
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working in the industry, i have gotten used to not paying retail for anything.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:56 PM   #7
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wonder what they deduct without the wideband?


Hmm. The site says 1,995, but including a wideband, but also says (right next to it)

Wideband option for Hydra Nemesis
Add a wideband to a Hydra ECU
$395.00

Am I missing something?

edit: seems I am. The wideband is an "option" all by itself. But, when you buy the Hydra, you get the wideband. By itself, the wideband is 395. But it's only compatable with Hydra. And hydra is only compatable with FM wideband.

Great
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:21 PM   #8
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FM lists the option to buy the wideband because they previously didn't sell the hyrda with it. Now they bundle everything together.

I don't think there is a conspiracy by FM here. Again FM didn't design the ECU and didn't make it so that it would only use one type of expensive wideband sensor.

If you want a hyrda and already have a wideband sell your wideband.
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:01 PM   #9
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Exactly, blame Hydra, not FM. It's the same on all Hydra applications. I had to deal with this on the WRX and STi.

I am sure FM would sell you a Hydra without the Wideband, if you asked nicely.
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:49 PM   #10
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Actually, you can blame FM if you want. The Hydra has the WBo2 hardware on board. For the $395 you get:

* The actual sensor, L1H1 or L2H2--OEM in many cars, including Honda
* The UNLOCK CODE to make the WB function work

The sensor alone can be purchased from your local parts store for somewhere around $150 retail. So FM probably gets them for $100 or less, bundles them with the unlock code, and gets $400 for it.

BTW, what do you get for $400? WB datalogging on the same graph with the other parameters for tuning. No closed loop fuel control. No monitoring/gauge.

Last edited by Ben; 04-19-2007 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:08 PM   #11
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That's still not FM's fault. It's hydra's fault.. They are selling you a license for the Autotune and the sensor. Hydra sets the retail pricing for the license sensor combo, not FM.

http://www.hydraems.com/Nemesis%20Applications.htm <-- scroll to the bottom to accessories.
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:25 PM   #12
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OK, good link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra
http://www.hydraems.com/Nemesis%20Applications.htm
Accessories
NTK Wide Band Oxygen Sensor with Auto-tune Upgrade $395
NTK Wide Band Oxygen Sensor only $295
So then I question why they sell the $395 option when the recommend that you pull the sensor as soon as tuning is complete. Why not use the $295 option then?
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:42 PM   #13
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Who is suggesting to remove the sensor after tuning? FM or Hydra?

With the link you leave the WB02 in all the time.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Actually, you can blame FM if you want. The Hydra has the WBo2 hardware on board. For the $395 you get:

* The actual sensor, L1H1 or L2H2--OEM in many cars, including Honda
* The UNLOCK CODE to make the WB function work

The sensor alone can be purchased from your local parts store for somewhere around $150 retail. So FM probably gets them for $100 or less, bundles them with the unlock code, and gets $400 for it.

BTW, what do you get for $400? WB datalogging on the same graph with the other parameters for tuning. No closed loop fuel control. No monitoring/gauge.

FWIW: Back in my DIY WBO2 days, the cheapest I could find the L1H1 was $360.00...
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:48 PM   #15
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From my quick search it looks like they are running about $185usd shipped.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:53 PM   #16
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why does it use such an expensive sensor? you can get the bosch WB for less than half that.

the whole thing is pretty expensive, and for what exactly?
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:02 PM   #17
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The following passage is on page 10 of FM's Hydra Installation Manual written by Jeremy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM
The NTK lab grade WBO2 that the Hydra comes with isn't proving to be as robust as the commercial grade Bosch LSU units used in a lot of other aftermarket WBO2 setups. Therefore, we recommend after doing all your fuel tuning and getting your fuel map right where you want it that you remove the WBO2 and switch back to the factory NBO2 for daily driving. (*see addendum below) The NBO2 does have short term (Enable Closed Loop) and long term (Long Term Learning) fuel trims, so as long as your map is internally consistent it will move it around as necessary using long term trim as temperatures and such change. Your other choice would be
to run the WB full time and be OK with maybe having to replace the sensor from time to time at around $300 a pop. I honestly don't know what to expect for a lifespan- depends on a lot of things. Hydra says they have a lifespan of around 500-800 hours on turbocharged cars. Keep
in mind that if it is in and does start to fail, the Hydra doesn't know the difference and will continue to make changes to your fuel trim causing a possible rich or lean everywhere condition.
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Hounos View Post
why does it use such an expensive sensor? you can get the bosch WB for less than half that.

the whole thing is pretty expensive, and for what exactly?
Those who are in the know way that the NTK is a more accurate sensor than the Bosch. They also say that the NTK will hold up when using leaded fuel much better than the Bosch.

The consumer was not in mind when Hydra decided to include the L1H1 hardware on board. $400 is ridiculous for what it does. (no closed loop fueling, no provision for monitoring via a gauge)
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Old 04-19-2007, 07:37 PM   #19
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so there's no provision for different o2 inputs? like just a generic 0-5v reading? a $2000 standalone that can't do closed loop fueling... bizarre.
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:30 PM   #20
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fyi you can use the L1H1 sensor in a pre 2.5 hydra.
also fyi hydra will "sell you" the unlock code for like $100.

if, you know, you're on a budget.
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