I'd like to know what FM thinks they do better than BEGi
 

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...53#post2715153

:gay:

I doubt corky and stephanie will sling shit though...I think their products speak for themselves, and they know it.

They cost-engineer better leading to a higher profit margin. If I were to want to buy stock in both companies I would guess that FM has the higher return.

Mark

I would suspect that FM has higher overhead. I've never seen either shop, but dammit FM has a lot of people with fingers in the pie.

FM is definately better at brand management and marketing. Their website is better & friendlier, and kept more current. FM is better at making 'cookie cutter' products. FM's kits are easier to install, if for anything, due to fewer items. FM has more EM options.

BEGi has IMO better hardware, better support, a more comprehensive approach, less marketing bs and more substance, custom fabrication, and does not conduct themselves in a snotty botique manner.

Ever seen the 4-eyes commercials showing their snotty competitor selling glasses? That reminds me of FM.

I had to toss in my 2c.

There is a lot of opinion thrown around by people who haven't actually experienced both companies hardware/software. I'm just sayin'

I'd like to know why you care?

reasons I went with bell and not fm:
downpipe
air scooper
centralized oil and water
better heat sheilds
bell intercooler > chinacooler

and I talked to FM and they told me they had another option for the manifold that was thicker, so even though the earlier one didn't crack, this one had extra "won't crack" or whatever. I thought that reeked of bullshit, and considering all the problems I had with cracked shit, I didn't want to go that route again.

The only think I like from FM is the intercooler tubing... as long as it fits perfectly and rubs nothing.

cat fights over there are funny.

y8s does it better! unf!

:sleep: as if this hasn't been discussed enough...

Actually, Corky reams out FM's intercooler tubing pretty straightforward on the bell website. something about intercooler tubing shouldnt be an insulator, and that the bell design drops 20 degrees off the charge temps just by using metal tubing--no intercooler involved. sure its easy to mould into shape, but insulating your pressurized charge is not the right way of thinking, other than for cost savings.

say the metal tubes that bell runs add an additional .5psi drop as compared to the FM smooth tubes. which would you rather have, a 20F cooler charge, or .5psi add'l boost?

don't taze me, bro!

I get the overall feeling that FM is an enthusiast-driven company, whereas Bell is an engineering-driven company.

Corky has a degree in mechanical engineering and worked as an engineer in the aerospace industry for quite some time before striking out on his own. So far as I know, BEGi does not directly participate in motorsports, choosing instead to function as a think-tank and design boutique. It's likely that this background, along with the fact that he tends to speak (and write) in engineerese, causes Bell and his firm to be perceived by some as aloof. I would suspect however that in general, the technical precision of his designs have historically exhibited a higher standard than those of most others.

Bill's past is in auto racing and tinkering, and I think that the shop reflects this personality. FM directly campaigns in various forms of motorsport, from autocross to track days, magazine challenges and high-profile events like the Targa rally. Their experience at actually designing turbocharger systems is somewhat limited, however I believe that the "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" philosophy that benefited automakers during the rise of NASCAR applies here- FM uses what they sell.

FM is basically comprised of hackers. If they want to try something, they might sketch it down roughly in chalk, but a more likely approach is simply to attack the problem with torches and grinders. This rough-n-tumble underdog mentality (along with having a cool mascot) earns FM a lot of karma points with the enthusiast crowd, who feel that they can better relate to (or be envious of / sympathetic to) the people who work there.

They also do a vastly superior job of marketing to their target audience- lots of frequently updated "behind the scenes" activity, open-houses, the Westfield, etc. Bell's website on the other hand has links that go nowhere, clickable pictures that don't enlarge, no downloadable documentation, and lots of photos without descriptions. Precisely the sort of thing you'd logically expect from a company whose main focus is not jazzy presentation. The company I work for (Harris Broadcast) genuinely does build some of the finest, most efficient radio transmitters in the world. One of our AM rigs is quite literally a direct D-A converter with a 50,000 watt output- not a single linear gain stage in it. Despite this however, our website utterly blows and we haven't published a catalog in years.

And of course FM are a one-stop-shop for all things high-performance; not just turbo kits and related accessories, but suspension and brake hardware, aftermarket body accessories and the like as well.

At this point, I don't really think that one company is superior to the other from the standpoint of the technical quality of their turbo systems. Both appear to be using very well-designed and high quality manifolds, both are using high-quality Garret turbochargers, both have very nice (though very different) downpipes, and both have extremely crappy engine management in their base kits.

The voodoo box is overpriced and under-featured. If it let you run bigger injectors and included timing retard that would be one thing, but it doesn't. And for what a voodoo plus a Bipes ACU costs you can buy an EMU or a MSPNP. The link and the Hydra are very cool, and if you can afford them they are at the top of their class (I differentiate Link / Hydra from MS based on vendor support) but again- wowewowa on the price.

The BEGi "fuel management system" is bronze-age technology. A pump and a rising-rate regulator? Gimme a break. And how do they justify $250 for a Pierburg fuel pump, when a Walbro 190 costs $80 and requires no plumbing modifications? Well, for one thing they give you a CARB sticker. The XEDE looks pretty neat, but at $1200 - $1600 it's still a piggyback. (granted, the injectors are included in that price.) But since it blows the CARB cert anyway, why not go full standalone? MSPNP FTW!

:rofl:

wow, that's harsh. Don't bash the spons.... oh wait :gay:

Corky Bell was huge in SCCA decades ago. He told me on the phone once that he doesn't get to the track anymore.

I don't care about the real argument, I just wanted to watch a bunch of bitches fight with each other. I've given both companies money.

Whenever sponsors/aftermarket people fight, I always get this mixed feeling. I love to watch them dig their own graves with stupid name calling, but just sometimes the facts will start to emerge about their rivals products, leading to insight for customers. i researched suspension stuff, bought from shaikh, then got all embarrassed for his whimpering attitude when someone knocked his product.

sponsors need to grow some balls. their customers arent idiots, and can see when someone is just slinging mud. they can let their fanboys defend them, and not stoop to the same level.

i know there was a dash of sarcasm there, but I dont think it was harsh, just some good honest criticism on things they could be doing better for their business and any business who gets offended over that is a fool.

This is what I like about TDR/Gary. When people talk shit about his products, he tells them to come back when you run X:XX time and then tell you to get fucked.

Belfab? :)

lol...that shit was golden.

Call 1-800-359-6957 and ask for Keith.

Here is some 'racing' info on Mr Bell

http://www.datsun.org/fairlady/CorkyBell.htm

creeeeepy

No joke. People writing about you and you don't even know it.

Here are my thoughts..
I have to disagree. Corky has raced about as long as Bill has. He does not race now though. I think it would speak more for us if someone else went out there and raced with our parts and did a great job, than an employee doing it. He knows it will hold up. That said, Corky really wants me to start racing and auto crossing. I just keep dragging my feet.

I hope we do not come across as aloof. We are probably the friendliest bunch you have come across. I know there are many misconceptions that have been instigated and perpetuated, by other people, about us. Slowly, we are changing people's minds. But they way I look at is now - now that FM and BEGi "divorced" - they cannot blame us for the problems anymore. We are no longer the convenient scapegoat. We did do some things wrong, but no where near the amount FM has lead everyone to believe over the years.

Of coarse, FM has better marketing. They have been marketing parts directly since before 1997. While we sat behind the scenes. We had no need to market stuff, that was FM's job and part of our agreement. To stay behind the scenes. Please don't slam us for honoring that agreement.

While we were behind the scenes, we had no reason to be a one stop shop. We are slowing incorporating everything from clutches, exhaust, etc... Mainly turbo related stuff first. The rest of the stuff will come too. Plus alot of new stuff that they are not capable of producing, tomorrow if needed.

The BEGi fuel system is older technology. But it is proven and time tested. That said, and the fact that it does work well (without having to cut wires), speaks for itself. But don't think that means we are not currently exploring other options. Corky will take his time to decide on something instead of going with the first POS to come along.

Mega Squirt looks to be an awesome thing. Kudos to you if you have the time, energy, and willingness to start over from scratch in making your car run. Me? No way. Besides, everyone has a different set of desires/needs for a turbo set up or engine management. The Xede fits perfect for some and for me, and I don't have to be a genius to use it. Yeah, it doesn't go with CARB, but it keeps you OBD II compliant. While California is one state, OBDII exists in about 30 of the other states.
Stephanie

haha Prove it and sponsor my car, Ill even give corky IP rights for everything I think of while in the car.

LOL! Wish I could think that fast.

We do sponsor some cars. The last few years Corky has worked alot with the formula 1 college teams, and UT and A&M race projects. Send me info.
Stephanie

Oh boo, i was on SAE Baja, formula was for the guys who couldnt think without money.

Ill shoot you an email.

Steph,

You're here enough to know that most of us love you!:gay:

There's a whole lot more FM bashers around here than folks hating on BEGI. You'll notice that most of the people chirping in on the M.net thread are regulars here and they were all recommending you.

By the way. Got the Mani. Thanks!

I could have used BEGI while I was in school down in Texas (Rice)...our SAE put a supercharger (along with a lot else) on an old Alfa Romeo and raced in OneLap of America. Actually, the team is still working on the car and taking it each year. It'd be nice to have (semi)local help from BEGi!

soooo where are the pics of stephanie?

if you scour begi you can catch on of her.

I doubt those types of pictures are what Philip is looking for. :)

+1 for pics!

in for bikini + heels.

Glad to hear you say that. Once I get my system installed (hopefully around xmas) I plan to take a drive over to see ya'll and run on your dyno. I don't know how much if any experience you've got with the megasquirt, but you are all welcome to poke around on mine and see what it can do.

I didn't know bell had a dyno. Stephanie, please email me or pm me if you cut a deal for your customers. I bought an S3 kit for you, and I'll need to tune it. I'm also running MS. Anything new on the rear t-stat housing?

Stephanie and Phil- don't misunderstand. I realize upon re-reading that a lot of that sounded overly harsh, which was not my intention. I'm not bashing Bill, or Corky, or FM or BEGi for that matter. In fact, I have great respect for both companies and the individuals that make them up. If you guys down in Texas ever need an electronics whiz on staff, let me know.

Corky is no doubt one of the more knowledgeable and experianced folks around when it comes to the subject of building and tuning for forced induction. In a way, he reminds me of Gene Berg, who for many, many years was regarded as the Godfather and patron saint of the high-performance aircooled Volkswagen universe. While I have never purchased anything directly from BEGi, I do own both of Corky's books, and consider them to be among the definitive works on the subject of the design and tuning of forced induction for the modern EFI engine. As an engineer I find his style of analytical writing coherent and fulfilling, and "Maximum Boost" in particular played a strong role in the final design of my system.

Sadly, I do in contrast feel that Keith's books (both Performance Projects and the Seven book) while colorful and inviting for the novice, lacked substance. Keith, if you're reading this, please don't take it personally- most of the Motorbooks Workshop publications strike me this way. I just expected a lot more hard tech when I bought Cheap Sports Car- particularly in the area of suspension design. I do understand that these are not part of the official FM canon, however a very strong association is inferred by the reader.

I am aware of Corky's past in motorsports, but that wasn't really my point. So far as I am aware from my exposure to their literature, BEGi is not presently engaged in any active form of motor racing involving products which they currently sell, and as a company BEGi has not made an effort to educate me otherwise. This isn't a criticism, just a point of differentiation.

And I think I spoke too harshly concerning the Bell website. There is indeed good information to be found, and I think Stephanie is absolutely correct in her assertion as to why I considered FM to excel in this regard- they have more experiance in end-user marketing


Likewise, I think that FM also does a positive service for the Miata enthusiast community. I have purchased a number of smaller items from them, and with the exception of their old-style BOV been quite pleased both with the product quality and the level of service. While it's true that they are for the most part a reseller rather than a manufacturer, they have in my mind distinguished themselves from the more pedestrian catalog-order vendors in the marketspace by their enthusiasm and active involvement in the community, as well as by their positive attitude. And I don't think that FM engages in overt Bell-bashing. For the most part Keith seems content lobbing well-deserved arrows at FFS and the former Jackson Racing. (The April 1 news release last year was a riot.)


Honestly, I find no fault whatsoever in the basic design of Bell's turbo systems. The design of the manifold and downpipe appear to be first-rate, and while it would be nice if I could look at the overall instructions for a complete kit, I'd say that in general the layout of everything seems very well thought-out. And even though I'm not much of a supercharger fan in general, I must admit that the MOAB is incredibly sexy.

I do however stand by my criticism of both companies' current approach to engine management in the lower-tier FI systems. It is true that the Bell FMU has a long and proven track record as an excellent performer, and is adequate for most applications. The Pierburg fuel pump however has always struck me as somewhat of a kludge, and an expensive one at that. The Walbro 190HP also has a proven track record, retails for roughly 1/3 the price, and has the benefit of not requiring external plumbing and wiring. I also see no mention of an exhaust O2 “sensor clamp” in the Bell package. While I admit that I have little hard data to absolutely verify the necessity of this component, my own limited experience with FI tuning on the Miata suggests that it is a useful tuning aid, even with more exotic piggyback systems such as the EMU.

Likewise, the FM voodoo is entirely too expensive for what it does. Relying entirely upon the duty-cycle headroom presumed to have been left on the table by Mazda during their injector-size calculations without the ability to trim fuel for up-sized injectors limits the product entirely too severely. And yet it costs just as much as the eManage Blue even after you factor in all the external gadgets.

What bugs me most about these two solutions however is that they provide no mechanism whatsoever for dynamic timing control. BEGi, to their credit, offers up the Bipes ACU as an affordable add-on, and FM still has the crusty old MSD / Sebring box in their catalog, but at the level of these two companies, something along these lines really ought to be standard. I can accept Greddy not including proper ignition control with their kit- it only costs $1200 including the turbo. But at the $3,000 level and above, some form of ignition control really ought to be part of the package.


Again, I hope that nobody interprets any of this as bashing, because that's not my intent at all. This actually started out as a general defense of both Bell and FM. Any criticism that I offer should be taken in the same spirit as that of Winston Churchill who wryly observed that “democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all the others that have been tried.”

^^^ Well said. (You should get like 10 post credits for all that!)

I got the Xede for $1500 including injectors and clips (IMO they should inlcude new injector o-rings since they olny cost ~3$ at mazda). Works well and install is fast ~10mins to running for electrical, injectors take longer obviously. It comes preloaded for your application (specific base maps) - easy to use.. Now Stephanie needs to provide MAP sensor ;-) and EBC control cause I know they have it :-)

I'm looking forward to MS for NB with a quick pnp harness (for parallel install to keep OBDII)... I know it can be done w/workarounds but I (having baby in life now) don't have loads of time to play with the car sigh.. Quick working solutions are desireable.. If someone here writes up the full guide on installing MS on NB in parallel to keep OBDII - then I'll have a go at it. But till then the Xede is working well.. Don't get me wrong I'm all for the open sourced solution and love the idea of MS and that it seems to be working really well for a lot of you guys I just don't have time to dig thru posts to find every aspect of change required and then maybe have something I missed and a week of after work troubleshooting..

Joe,

What the hell are you doing on this forum? Your two posts are the most reasonable, fair, complete comparisons of FM and BEGI I have seen anywhere yet. No fanboy soundbites, no hating, just plain unbiased perceptions. Well said and good job!

Hey now, I worked on the Formula SAE team back at UF. In our shop, it was the folks on the HEVy project (Hybrid Electric) who couldn't think without money. Or more precisely, without being sponsored by Chrysler. :rolleyes:

In fairness tho, they were building hybrid cars back in '95, long before it was cool.

Talk to Braineack. He has built several PNP harnesses to run a traditional MS in piggyback on the NA, I'd say he probably has the best knowledge base for what it would take on an NB.

OT - I bet that was fun, my dad loves to talk about his involvement in mini-Baja back in the 70's at USF.

Nah! I want to see her with a helmut on doing about 110 heading into to Turn 3 at Road Atlanta!

Rice has not called us to my knowledge. In all fairness, they are 3 hours away. Corky know all the guys at A&M and UT.We usually help out with all their projects every year.

Good luck finding the photo of me. There is some around, but not the kind phillip was looking for. ;)

I respect Joe's opinion, but I felt it necessary to point out what I did. People expect us to be stocking the same stuff as FM, and do not realize the reasons why we are now catching up.

I think the main advantage of the pierburg is it quieter than the walbro. It is also a better quality part. Corky used to say that he would not wish a walbro pump on his mother in law. But having used one or two in the last couple of years, he is keeping an open mind. And we now sell them. Go figure.

As for timing management, I completely agree. It would be nice to find a cheaper solution that is all in one. The Xede, but cheaper. Corky has toyed with the idea of trying the new AEM unit. But by the time you add all the stuff to make it easier to use, it costs the same as the Xede. Some Friends of ours are working on a new unit and have been for some time. So maybe there will be good news soon. But I gotta say Dick Bipes (and someone else behind the scenes) is 'da man, and now we only need the bipes unit for the NB models. The MSD is very limited in it's availability, and the J&S is too expensive. The new wheel for the NB's is just a bad idea all around.

Why no O2 clamp?The difference is an electronic control versus mechanical. The O2 clamp is used to send the ECU into open loop mode. It is not that we think they are horrible, just that it is very seldom used. We have some O2 clamps, sometimes...The BEGi fuel system works off of a boost signal and is more of a mechanical control. So it does not need to send the car open loop. Granted, there are rare occasions when it is needed. From my limited knowledge on Voodoo and PC pro devices, all other electronic devices do need to find a way to put the car in open loop in order to control the fuel. But don't quote me on that......
Stephanie

If you want to try the MS bandwagon, shoot me an email. Its cheap, gets the job done, and I bought one. No cost to you, and you get to play with it on your s3 with a built '99 motor, and my car will end up with a good tune...lulzs.

Is that right? To me the pierburg was a bit too audible, especially since much of the insulation on my car is removed, but it didnt really annoy me. Its rather quiet in my closet now though since going Megasquirt :)

IIRC, there's nothing speical about it. just a third 16 pin connector between the standard 22 and 26 pin. All three and the 64 pin male are in stock at onlinecomponents.com

just need (16) .070" contacts and (48) .040" contacts, about 40' of wire, some 1/8" heatshrink, a few hours, and you're in business.


I had mine wrapped with the supplied sleeve, then wrapped in two layers of dynomat, and the entire area around the filter/pump was dyno matted. I could hear it over my exhaust/engine/radio/thinking. Every walbro 190 ive installed, i can't hear at all.

I've got a walbro 190HP and it is whisper quiet, the only time I can hear it running is when the gas tank is nearly empty.

Well Keith is all about helping me now, since I already posses a kit from someone else.

Given a stock 1.8 block, running a 7K/rpm peak, VE of 95%, Intake temp of 110-degrees, BSFC of 0.55 and an A/F of 12.75 you will need 11-psi to see 200-rwhp.

Reduction of pressure by 0.5-psi will result in 196-rwhp.

Reduction of temp by 20 degrees will result in 207-rwhp.

Both a reduction in pressure and temp will result in 203-rwhp. -- A 1.5% net gain. Which then brings in the question: $$$ for value. (Remembering that value is subjective.)

(..at least according to the formula. YMMV)

If you've looked at BEGi's site and seen what Corky and I are up to, you'll see I am running some FM equipment on my car. However, when I called Corky to talk about some of the racing events I wanted to get involved in, his response wasn't, "Product X, sitting on our shelf and ready to go, will meet your needs." Instead it was, "Sounds like an interesting problem. Come on down and let's see what we can cook up..."

- L

LOL! i like this forum more and more everyday.

i rarely post over at Miata.net, too many people on their high chairs and proper engrish...

you brought back a nearly 3 month old thread to say that? are you trying to get banned?

oh jeasus it is isent it haha

We got our MS in today! Too bad Tim has to look at it for a few days before he can install it. :)
Stephanie

The business models behind Begi and FM are different, for one they target two different demographics. Bell targets a Do it your selfer up to a person who thinks they have what it takes to tinker a bit. FM targets people who dont know jack shit about what they are doing and are experts at assembling IKEA furniture and dont mind paying extra for piece of mind.

Simple.

As for my issues, I think Begi should revise their site. Seriously it just looks like a fifth grader with no experience in HTML made it. A website is an important representation of your business, its your store front, you dont want it to look like crap no one will walk into your store.

In fact, I know an expert programmer that could make you(stephanie, begi) an awesome website that will truly portray what Begi is. He lives in Texas and can no doubt come to you in person for a consultation, best of all he is a one man show so you get support and personal service. I went to school with this guy, and I would take a bullet for him. Best of all, he isnt expensive and im sure will talk to you for nothing.

Theirs is a website that's made strides lately, regardless of where it is now. Man, I'm coming into this thread late, but will say that (limited interaction - though always good - with BEGi aside) I found Joe's post pretty dead on. FM certainly used to give me a lot of help, but recently I found they seemed to disagree with me and then later with reality, looking a bit more to sell stuff than I remember them being.

I'm not sure about the motivation for what kits are supplied - there's a wide wide world behind closed doors of incentives and costs and support and personal preferences which end customers see little of (a few years in a sales organization showed me that). Miatas are not mustangs, the market for moding them isn't what it could be.

I do think a company making a solid effort to provide a MS at cost with their own firmware (hard intellectual property to protect - the trouble with selling to "I can do it myself"ers) would really be selling something useful. It wouldn't behoov a company such as BEGi to develope the ultimate pnp MS only to have folks buy it from DIY or ebay after all the development overhead. Everyone's gotta make a buck - keeping the doors open is not as simple as pulling in 10% on a set of ignition cables.

FM, to me, is indeed a reseller. Think of them more as... a review site. They buy products, review them, and then sell them, their increased prices reflect the cost of this work (on their end there's also warehousing, etc - but to you it's just what you pay to get something that "just works"). The only time that falls apart is when it doesn't "just work" - and then I get a little annoyed at the "you're not typical enough to worry about" attitude over there.

I don't know if FM turned a corner or if I did. I'm certainly in a different market. But I don't like the line I get from the people I get on the phone or by email - they are different people than before, but it seems questions go unanswered and they spew cannon. Lastly, I had someone tell me my overboost issue could be solved with a more expensive computer. Totally illogical, they might as well have said "send me two thousand dollars for support".

Begi's stuff looks good to me, if my stuff didn't already work I'd be giving it a very serious look. They should make little voodoo dolls of my car and stick pins in it. :-)

^Abe,it seems like FM got too big,and now it's starting to bite them in the ass.It seems like it's pretty routine now that FM does not want to solve existing problems with the products that customers have,but choose to jump in with both feet and plain out try and sell them something instead of helping them fix it.

We sell parts to the non-educated as well. We have full kits for the "new ones" and come with the same peace of mind. Probably more so, since we make our parts in house and not China. It can be fixed more easily if something is wrong.

I agree completely, but like Abe said, it has come a long way. I did not design the html stuff, but I do all the regular text and photo edits. A fifth grader could probably do it much better than me. I do not know html, do not want to know html, and want nothing to do with it. html queen, I am not...... :bowrofl:

That said, a new web store is in the works and I hope it will be unveiled around the first of the year. It should look somewhat the same, but with a few improvements in layout and better organization. We have an awesome guy who is working on it for us.
Stephanie

Right there is your first problem. My impression of your company is what I posted above. Potentially I am not the only one that thinks like this, therefore someone else who thinks like me will probably go to FM for my aforementioned reasons and you lose business. Concentrate on marketing Begi products that offer " the same peace of mind. Probably more so since we make our parts in house and not China." and you will generate even more business.

When I first got my Miata, I never heard of Begi. The first time I looked at your site, I thought "this company is offering products out of my knowledge range that require more effort to install and are for experts". I was dead set on an FM kit after that, but later through education I learned otherwise. Most people looking for tuner companies dont do in depth research, they look at a site, read the stuff written on it and buy based on first impression. Your site is for a different crowd, not the crowd that brings in hordes of cash sadly when compared to the DIY'Selfer and garage tinkerer.

Sam shut the fuck up, you have have a fine arts degree don't you?