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Old 02-23-2013, 06:44 PM   #41
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Once a reliable actuator pops up on the market many ecu solutions will spark up after it.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:36 PM   #42
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Joe on a 4 cylinder engine you only need 8 outputs to run the valves.

Of course you still need a distributor and a car by fir everything else haha.

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Old 02-23-2013, 08:00 PM   #43
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But if you can control each valve individually you want to, so you want 16 circuits. You can do the one valve opening later than the other like the old ccvc engines for more fuel economy for example. And of course having this technology and not using as the throttling device would be silly.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:09 PM   #44
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Why would you do that when you can just change the entire lift/timing profile for both at once.

I cannot imagine that opening them at different times is anything other than a way around a problem that lies with fixed camshafts.

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Old 02-23-2013, 09:31 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Why would you do that when you can just change the entire lift/timing profile for both at once.
Better swirling in the cylinder, leading to more complete combustion, I would think.

You could also do like the skyactiv engines and go into Atkinson cycle at low loads for FE then to Otto cycle for power at high loads. Though, how many will bother to tune this into their car without software that makes it easy?
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:36 PM   #46
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Logic says that you'll want to open up the valves to the max even at idle. Cars with big cams idle like **** not because of the lift but because of the duration. With these you could have any duration you want so that wont be a problem.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Why would you do that when you can just change the entire lift/timing profile for both at once.

I cannot imagine that opening them at different times is anything other than a way around a problem that lies with fixed camshafts.

Dann
read about honda (among others) doing specifically this with good results at low load/low rpm......specifically on the k20a3 among others.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:42 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Why would you do that when you can just change the entire lift/timing profile for both at once.

I cannot imagine that opening them at different times is anything other than a way around a problem that lies with fixed camshafts.
There's some data to suggest that being able to control each valve individually has value. For a system as radical as this, I'd think they'd not want to ignore "easy" gains.


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious, which is that with electro-pneumatic valve control, you can also eliminate the throttle.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
But if you can control each valve individually you want to, so you want 16 circuits. You can do the one valve opening later than the other like the old ccvc engines for more fuel economy for example. And of course having this technology and not using as the throttling device would be silly.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
There's some data to suggest that being able to control each valve individually has value. For a system as radical as this, I'd think they'd not want to ignore "easy" gains.


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious, which is that with electro-pneumatic valve control, you can also eliminate the throttle.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:19 AM   #50
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Oh, well, sure. If you count that one time that Leafy mentioned it. I thought it was obvious that I meant somebody other than him.

(d'oh.)
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:58 AM   #51
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read about honda (among others) doing specifically this with good results at low load/low rpm......specifically on the k20a3 among others.
Yes but is that ONLY because they have a fixed cam that can never change?
These setups can have an cam shape at any rpm whenever they want.

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Old 02-24-2013, 01:35 AM   #52
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no the k20a3 opens 1 valve more than the other at lower rpm/load for better swirl/combustion/etc....its that (intake) camp specifically that has this and then opens both same amount when "vtak kicks in bro". lol

The more potent k20a2 on the other hand does it completely differently, so I dunno how effective it is.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:01 AM   #53
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pffft K20A3. Get that **** outta here That **** was done on the D first.
OBD2 D15B had 3 different ways to run the intake valves. One valve opening normally with the other just cracking to induce swirl, both valves opening normally, and high cam "vtec" with more lift and duration. All on one camshaft. It was hilarious looking, all sorts of lobes on that cam.

Edit: Found a pic:


Also, **** i-VTEC, its all about that "Advancted VTEC", assuming it ever sees the light of day:


But anyway.
I had a similar idea in highschool more or less. Except I was thinking of like an electrical actuator, so it would have control of lift as well, not just duration and timing. Variable lift isnt much of a sacrifice, sure its not ideal to use a super short, high lift profile at low speed, but the benefits would outweigh it. Plus if the engine isnt being designed for performance, you could make the lift small so it was well suited.

My idea way back when would be the ultimate of everything. Infinitely variable lift, duration, and timing of the cams, so it could make the best power possible at any rpm.
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Inside Koenigsegg Cam-less engine-valvetrain16.jpg  

Last edited by Full_Tilt_Boogie; 02-24-2013 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:09 AM   #54
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I'm curious why hasnt anyone done a spinning blockoff plate with a hole on it instead of a valve system? Like a sliding valve system.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:12 AM   #55
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I'm curious why hasnt anyone done a spinning blockoff plate with a hole on it instead of a valve system? Like a sliding valve system.
They have, a looooooong time ago.



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Old 02-24-2013, 04:22 AM   #56
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Well i was thinking something the other way. More like a large hockey puck with a hole in it that spins and when the holes align it would be like an "open valve".
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:33 AM   #57
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Ive seen that as well, but I dont think it worked very well.

This actually has been used for high performance, but because of boring racing rules meant to level the field and snuff out innovation, it hasnt seen any real use. But its definitely been worked on. This article is about a similar system designed for F1 use:
http://home.people.net.au/~mrbdesign...utoTechBRV.pdf
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:03 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
There's some data to suggest that being able to control each valve individually has value. For a system as radical as this, I'd think they'd not want to ignore "easy" gains.


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the obvious, which is that with electro-pneumatic valve control, you can also eliminate the throttle.
Cargine concept is very similar to the one FIAT introudced on market in 2009, called MultiAir. No throttle body is used on those engines


In my opinion those pneumatic/modular valve control systems work very well.
I tried this multiair technology driving some cars my company owns (we have one 1.4L 170hp and one 0.9L 85hp): the one which really impressed me is a low-size (two cylinders only) 900cc engine turbocharged, 85hp and it's really surprising how a low cc engine can have such a good driveability and low fuel consumption... of course if you push it hard the fuel consumption goes away from declared one as it suffer for low size (even if it still keeps a good mileage per gallon value compared to the other engines), but I'm satisfied of the result of city and freeway standard driving.
Now there's a new upgrade scheduled for 2013 which brings the power to 101HP... we will see how it works!
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:22 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Well i was thinking something the other way. More like a large hockey puck with a hole in it that spins and when the holes align it would be like an "open valve".
Like this?



This is how many 2 stroke rotax (seadoo) engines do it. Video (from 0:40 to 1:40)

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Old 02-24-2013, 12:54 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skou View Post
The company that is developing the actuator is Cargine, not Koenigsegg. Check out their website.

Cargine | Free Valve Technology
This makes me sad.

Not that it's being done by someone other than Koenigseggisseggggnignigsegigisegggnigseggniggsegg , but that they appear to be claiming credit for it.
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