It's been a while since we've had a political thread...
 

Looks like the middle east is going to shit again. It's the same thing every time. Both sides are unwilling to make concessions or stick to any agreements. Of course our government unilaterally supports Israel and calls the Palestinians "terrorists" which is a nice way to end any discussion before it begins. I don't support either side in this conflict. I don't support any political movement that uses violence as a means to their ends.

I understand the anger of the Palestinians who had their land taken from them and have become second class citizens in their own country. I also find the treatment of them by the Israelis to be disgustingly hypocritical. You are subjugated and treated like animals by one government only to turn around and do the same thing to another people? On the other hand I understand that the Palestinians are not saints and are certainly breaking as many promises as the Israelis and doing their fair share in instigating violence.

Neither side really seems to want peace but are actually looking for opportunities for conflict. It seems like this is never going to end. Though I hae no personal stake in the situation it does make me sad to see the same situation occur over and over and it infuriates me to see our governments one sided and wholly unhelpful role in this conflict. What the hell happened to a two state solution?

As long as the Israelis are occupying Palestinian lands there will not be peace there, period, and the Palestinians and other sympathetic Arab states will ensure that there is no peace.

One of my teachers is Palestinian and she jumps at the slightest thing from having grown up in Israel.

I read in the "USA Today" this morning (stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night) a sentence which actually got me a little heated: "Israel was born". Born??? If demanding a land be surrendered by its rightful owners to a new group simply because the British thought it was a good idea is birth then sure..

Kotomile, care to explain your sig? Did i miss something?, lol.

an idiot noob that got banned threatened to crash this site...he failed miserably, just as bad as he failed when making a thread about a rotary 600+ whp miata he was planning on building

You should probably get your history right. Just to make sure I understand your point, Palestine was a sovereign nation before Israel declared independence? You believe that Britain took land from a sovereign nation and created another nation within it lands?

Yes. See - Balfour Declaration of 1917:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/i...eclaration.jpg

Winston Churchill, in 1922:

In both Houses of Parliament there is growing movement of hostility, against Zionist policy in Palestine, which will be stimulated by recent Northcliffe articles. I do not attach undue importance to this movement, but it is increasingly difficult to meet the argument that it is unfair to ask the British taxpayer, already overwhelmed with taxation, to bear the cost of imposing on Palestine an unpopular policy.

If you believe I need to get my history straight, please provide examples to back up your view.

Everyone has a bias, but you haven't clarified your statements. If 'yes' was your response please clarify and support it.

Britain did not declare Israel a nation, nor did it happen in 1917. Palestine is refered to a geographical location, not a soverign nation.

Palestine is also several million people swept aside to make room for the Zionists.

Of course it didn't happen in 1917, and we didn't gain our independence in 1776 either... but it set things in motion. It's all right there: "His majesty's government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" Doesn't get much more black-and-white than that.

In the great imperialistic tradition of our forefathers you declare that just because you don't have a flag, you don't have a right nor the pleasure of owning the land you've inhabited for 2000 years.

Zionism was a bigot's answer to the "Jewish Question".

They had no right to the land outside of writings in the bible.

I can't believe I'm posting Eddie Izzard material to illustrate a point.. :D

You got my reference :)

There will always be fighting - like two brothers...no peace. We should leave them be. As I explained to anyone who asked...short of genacide...there is nothing we can do - and since genocide isn't an option (not even close to an option) we should keep our noses out of it.

Sidebar...did anyone else notice Obama stating we would withdraw from the Middle East if he got the Presidency...but the other day making a statement he would infuse more troops into the Middle East by the summer?

Are you talking about the Middle East or the US of A? There's some American Injuns that might take offense to your offense. Just sayin. Though you might need to replace "British" in the sentence above.

Frank

Nuke em all!
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Again your history is wrong, but I guess we should give back the US from your point of view? The native americans were here first...

What you are missing is at the same point Israel was created, Palestinians were given an opportunity to make their own nation, and they refused. I guess i am surprised that given how the world has formed and people have fought to create sovereign nations that somehow Israel should be exempt from that.

And the White Paper of 1939 disagrees with your assertion, in fact Britain wanted to limit Jewish immigration. In fact Arabs would have had to grant permission for Jewish immigration.

I feel bad for the civilians, but thats the problem with Terrorists they hide among civilians.

Problem is as it will always be.

Good people can live together in harmony regardless of their cultural or religious beliefs, age, sex, or ethnicity. The other 10 percent can only elevate themselves by hating on others.

The horror is that it is NOT a small minority.

I think we need to have Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan turn on each other much like this situation. Would free up our military for awhile at least.

If you think civilians haven't been targeted here and in the past by Israel you are fooling yourself. Bulldoze homes much?

Terrorism is a subjective term that's useful for alienating people and ending discussion and diplomacy and that's about it. "Terrorists" also wrap themselves in a flag.

Maybe we should visit Hiroshima again...keep pissing on us until we bring the Holy Hand of God down upon thee. We have done it in the past...and it seems like that is what is being done today. Don't get me wrong...I am not taking sides - but I think it's wrong for Bush to take a side when the US did the same thing (within context) to Japan so long ago.

Fact is...we are having enough trouble keeping our economy in line...we should focus more attention to that and less attention to the other kids in the school yard. Just my opinion.

Don't they bulldoze homes of those who supported the terrorists? They are hardly "civilians" if they take an active participation in supporting the enemy.

"La Resistance" in France during WWII was considered a terrorist organization by Germany.

What about the same Taliban and Bin Laden who we supported against the USSR in Afghanistan? They were considered terrorists by USSR at the time of that conflict. It's all about who's side someone is on.

Your either with us, or you are a terrorist.

I used to think this way...until you see it up close and then you realize - 80% of the time...the people are in fear for their lives. I still agree with you about the guilty parties...but keep in mind not all people harbor the terrorists because they themselves are also terrorists.

Children are running around with IED's and guns because mommy and daddy told them - but rules of war state NO CHILDREN are to be killed.

The rules changed...war isn't being made like it used to be :-)

I feel bad for the civilians. Israeli civilians haven't been targeted?

I guess the next question would be, how should Israel respond? Or any nation respond to rockets from a neighboring city?

I condemn this thread to Auschwitz.

I guess my point was that BOTH sides instigate the violence. Whenever either side commits violence it is a response to something done by the other side.
How do I think they should respond? Take the moral highground and have patience and engage in diplomacy instead of perpetuating this adolescent crap. Oh yeah, and then give back the land you stole...

Still not as bad as living in Texas.... :)

How about we take over Russia and give them that land instead?

pretty much every women in Chicago weighed 900lb and ate hot-dogs and pretty much made me barf. Dropping the top in December > illinizle.

sounds fair to me;)

i hope both sides kill each other. If you can't behave diplomatically, then kill yourselves.

While that is obviously true...

http://shapleigh.org/system/news_art...2007_Final.pdf

I didn't realize how shitty Texas was.

Im ok with that cause Israel will win, like every other instance.

Ha I love the environmental section. Hilarious. Poor Tejas.

Really? You're like some Israeli fanboi. It's nearly comical. At least look at it from a semi-unbiased stance. For instance, there are humans on both sides and they are nothing more than humans; jewish or not.

IIRC Obama wants to withdraw from Iraq and plus-up in Afghanistan. Neither of those is technically "middle east", at least not in any of the shops I've worked in.

Why would they take offense? Of course I realize the USA was created (not "born") the same way almost. Starting with Columbus native populations from Haiti and throughout the Caribbean were slaughtered and enslaved, and it didn't stop with the pilgrims either once they landed. American Indians will be the first to point that out if you get them talking about it.

Again, yes, the Native Americans were here first. When did I say they weren't? :jerkit:

Recount for me, please, the terms under which the Palestinians were offered their own nation. Put yourself in the Palestinians' shoes and ask yourself if it seems fair. Recall that Muslims (the majority of Palestinians are Muslim) do not take kindly to their land being taken from them. One of the things UBL is upset with us about is our staging of troops on Saudi soil before ODS/ODS. Of all the places to seek a homeland...

Boil that down a bit, that's about 20 pages worth of material.

I am on my phone but cntl f and search for Arab should bring out the state formation stuff. It's early in the document

Basically 2 states Jewish and Arabic with jeruselum controlled by the UN

(This is all fictional and I'm just making this up)


No one in Arizona knows what to do with the misplaced Iroquois Indian tribes. They were kicked off their land in upstate New York in the late 17th century and sent to the southwest where EVERYONE hates them. It's typical bigotry that would be solved by assimilation anywhere else, but the Iroquois AND the Arizonians don't want that.

One thing the Arizonians AND the Iroquois can agree on however is that both their holy books agree upstate New York is where they belong. It was written 2000 years before that the Iroquois must return to New York at some point for the prophecy to be
complete.

Then something goes very wrong. There is a large scale massacre of Iroquois. Millions are murdered. The leader of the genocide is toppled and the genocide is stopped. The surviving Iroquois and the rest of the world are left to wonder what to do with the millions of Iroquois still living in and around Arizona.

"Assimilation is impossible after such wrongs have been committed!" The populace of the United States chanted.

John McCain who owns a great deal of land and has an influential say in New York has a soft spot for the Iroquois problem.

He says "Why don't we just give them the land in New York and just give them the whole state? It will solve a great deal of our current problems!"

His advisor in the matter replies with "Well sir New York has a large population of people already living there. By moving in all of these Iroquois many New Yorkers will be completely disenfranchised and displaced".

"It is of no matter," McCain replies "the land was originally the Iroquois anyways".

And so McCain lobbied and eventually gave the entire state of New York to the Iroquois Nation. New Yorkers were pushed off their lands. The Iroquois nation took the entire city of New York (because it was originally a burial and worship ground during the 1st century BC) and began a system that made it near impossible for non-Iroquois (aka native New Yorkers) to get jobs or continue their lives as before.

Violence ensued on either side with massacres of innocent people spurring the fires of hatred. The E.U. who was also sympathetic with the Iroquois cause, pumped tons of money and gave the Iroquois their most elite and technologically advanced weapons. The native New Yorkers are outgunned and starving, resort to all kinds of warfare.

New Yorkers are branded terrorists by the E.U. media and government.

What you call a terrorist, they call a freedom fighter.

I don't feel like typing this story anymore. You get the idea.

But your fictional story is missing a bunch of fictional history for context :) and since were doing fictitious

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently at the U.N. and made the world community smile.

A representative from Israel began-'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.'

The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.'

The Israeli representative smiled and said 'And now that I have made that clear, I will begin my speech.'