New turbo project - opinions needed on engine choice
 

Ok, so my buddy and I are thinking of buying a clapped out 240Z or second-gen RX7, and swapping in a modern drivetrain. The objective is to have a retro-cool streetable machine that can kick the shit out of 911 GT2's and late-model M3's at trackdays, whilst being less gay than a miata.

V8's are ruled out because the weight distribution is not really favorable. An LS1 swap is out of budget.

300 whp is obligatory. The engine must be capable of taking whatever boost is necessary to achieve this, without being built or modified internally.

Right now, the choices are 1999+ BP or a 2.0/2.3 Duratec from 03+ Focus or Ranger truck (essentially a Mazda MZR).

For a BP, I know we will use a miata 6-speed and 7" torsen. With a duratec lots of RWD trans and diff options exist, making it an overall cheaper option.

How reliable is a 300 whp miata drivetrain?

I'm right now inclined towards duratec because its a full 150 lbs lighter than the miata engine, plus the drivetrain parts are cheaper. What I don't know is whether it will take 300whp without throwing a rod thru the block.

240z with rb25de-tt
Vildini Motorsport | Shaw RB25DET Powered 240Z

im well over 300hp and i haven't broken any thing yet

I'm going to double that rb25de swap choice. Can't beat a RB motor.

Lexus V8 swap.

Turbo FE3. They (genuine mazda) were selling on eBay for $500. Kia versions are around half that and were actually made by Mazda for kia 97-98. 300+whp on stock, never cracked open, engine with 13 year old engine management here. And it's been installed in a second gen rx7 more than once.

sr20? They can take ~400hp unopened I think. Not sure how much they cost.

I say a 240 drivetrain. KA24 with turbo, and Im pretty sure the stock trans and rear end are good for 300hp, at least more so than a stock Miata 5 speed and rear. SR20 is good, but would have to be imported likely, and wouldnt come with all of the little pieces. Find a local wrecked 240 and take all you need. Plus being a 2.4L vs. 2.0, you get my point. From what I remember in my 240 curious days, the KA24 is a great engine and takes very well to boost.

Rx7 TII ftw. Then you just have to do an engine swap, driveline comes installed.

20B

Damn, I dont guess I read the op very closely. Yes, I agree with an RX7. If I were to do an RX7 though, I would rather have a 1st gen and do a 13B swap into it (if you didnt already have an SE) or swap in a 13BT from a 2nd gen and be done with it. Have a monster drivetrain and a very lightweight and small chassis. I want DirectFreaks



WTF, after a few years Youshit decides the audio track isnt authorized... gay. But bad ass car :jerkit::jerkit::jerkit: Not the same without sound.

*cough* Though its a long way, I have a great little 1st gen chassis that would be perfect for a track car, though it has no title. Black G trim. CHEAP!

PS. I have jerked it often to that video Naarleven posted above. Yum

rb25dett and sr20 - out of budget

FE3- what vehicles did it come in? ideally i would want something that's easily available with low-ish miles, which the duratec is. Miata engine, I wouldnt care about miles cause I know its rock solid.

lexus v8- cool, but no thanks.

ka24- is this a honda engine?

EDIT: NA6C-Guy, the first gen RX7 sucks on track because it doesnt handle nearly as well as the second gen. any weight difference is made up by the sophisticated suspension.

Why the no thanks? Meets all your criteria. Cheap, reliable, easy to find, make good power, light weight. Or you just don't want a V8 just because?

yep, just because. 4-cylinder turbo = way lighter and easier. plus, the idea is to be the underdog at track meets - the more porsche douchebags that laugh at you, the better.

honestly if an sr20 is out of budget and you want 300hp this isn't going to happen. any engine cheaper than an sr will need a rebuild to handle 300hp, unless you use something like a lexus v8 or vh45de, which will require a lot of fabbing and/or drivetrain work to work.

example with vh45de, IMO the cheapest option (stock 272hp, 296 ft-lbs): motor is cheap and if you can find one they're usually not too expensive (under 1k), but you'd need a kit to mate it to a z32 manual transmission (1k), and you'd need a custom driveshaft and maybe a different rear end, and a good amount of welding and fab work to mount it. you'd better not need to rebuild the motor either, cause they're quad cam, two timing belts, 32 valves, etc.

Edit: the vh45de is an aluminum block too. still a little heavier than a KA, but all in all not too bad.

IIRC the lexus V8 is lighter than a BP...

Here's what I'd do. Mazda BP and turbo it. Put forged rods and pistons. Or a FE3 and turbo it like M2cupcar said.

Or a KA24 and turbo it. Probably your best bet seeing how you can buy a 240sx with a KA24 already in it. :)

What about a 2JZ swap? Those cam in a few lexus as well. Get a manual from a supra to mate to it.

if he can afford a 2JZ he can afford an LS1 which is pretty much the only way to go. Inline 6 cylinders = heavy

The lexus 2JZ isn't expensive. I see them all the times at the junk yards. Around here an engine is 165 bucks you pull it.

Shit, go get me one and I'll give you $1000 for your trouble. Never seen a 2JZ in a junkyard, and surely not for under $200.

Sure thing. How many do you want? I can get them when I'm out of college around early May.

Or here's one for 898. I'll send you my paypal so you can send me the difference.
eBay Motors: SUPRA SC300 IS300 GS300 2JZ VVTI NON TURB ENGINE 2JZGE (item 220365572940 end time Mar-02-09 09:10:11 PST)

EDIT: 900 shipped. So you'll only have 1k in it to your door after you paypal me the difference. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2JZ-G...Q5fAccessories

Oh. n/m, should have asked which 2JZ first. I was thinking you meant the almighty touched by the hand of god 2JZ-GTE. A regular 2JZ would be fine too, but I wouldnt pay you $1000 for one.

Side note, wonder if a 2JZ would fit into a Miata engine bay. Seen the V12, so I would imagine you could stuff a 2JZ into one. A 2JZ-GTE powered Miata would be a bastard.

vq35hr. i just saw a complete drivetrain and motor selling locally for under $3k and had like 15k miles on it.

ps: with simple bolt-ons im at 280whp right now with oem cats and headers.

2jz-ge has the same everything as a 2jz-get, except that the 2jz-get has a forged crank and oil squirters. For the OP's power goal, a 2jz-ge will be fine.

its not the 2jzgte its the 2jzge and thats at a pick a part junk yard list on these engines are well over 1600 from a really wrecking yard the

tt 2jzgte with a 6 spd swap is alot more on the lines 5-6 grand

the head is different as well

My buddy just sold his rb20 swapped 240, and I know of another guy that hangs out with us that has an rb25....I must honestly say, before I was a big fan, but after seeing them in person, driving them, and seeing what they can do, its left me with a big dissapointment. both cars are nose heavy, do not have power steering, and do not make nearly enough power to really justify the money and effort for the swap. One thing I DID like was the sound: they are absolutely orgazmic sounding.

Sr is cheaper, lighter, easier, with similar results power wise. I say go that way. Cant beat it for the price.

Domestic- Kia Sportage. Outside the US- Ford Telstar and a multitude of Mazda 626 based cars. The FE-dohc is essentially a Miata engine scaled up, everything is larger. A good example are the rods of the F vs. the B in my avatar.

Ummm. No.

guys, i really appreciate the help, but the miata and duratec are really the only two motors we're considering. The former because I'm most familiar with it, the latter because its a lot lighter and makes huge gobs of torque for very cheap.

I'm thinking $500 for engine, and another 1500 for drivetrain, that's how cheap we want to be doing this. The 99+ engine may not be a possibility due to its high demand if we're going the miata route. None of the other engines you guys mention are that cheap (except the FE3 possibly).

Again, how reliable is the 300 whp miata engine and drivetrain? I see Savington just blew his engine recently.

lol@"clapped-out"

gonorrhea ftl.

i'm going to vote the 240z with the ka24de turbo. my father had an orange 240z when i was a wee lad. i liked it very much and always wanted to go in the "orange car"

there was a gorgeous orange 240 at msr-h this weekend. I should have taken a pic for you gays.

^^ this guy knows his stuff. Awesome motors. eleventy-billion x awesome with a t3/t4. Ask me how I know....

What's the KA24 capable of in stock form?

The fail is strong in this thread.

Should have done the RX7 and a LSx engine.

KA24DE is capable of up to 350-400rwhp. Some have pushed it further but they fail quite well. The transmission and rear end, from what I know of, have seen upwards of 600rwhp and no failure.

Also forgot to mention that most of the KA's that I have known, have gone up in smoke even after the engines have been rebuilt. Seriously, the SR is cheaper to do in the long run.

The SR20, btw, can handle about the same as the KA stock, BUT last much much longer. I have a few buddies rolling around with stock SR's in the 400rwhp range. These are daily driven cars that are taken to the track.

BTW,

http://az240sx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=28861 <---RX7 w/ LS1
http://az240sx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=41858 <---Stock Sr w/ close to 400rwhp, running E85, but can be tuned to run 91. Running at 22psi now.

Sure, sponsor the fucking LSx and I'll be happy to put it in for ya.

What the fuck is a KA24? Is it a honda engine or something?

If you go KA you'll need at least a better oil pan and probably an accusump.

Oil starvation FTL.

Damn someone got mad.

Obviously you don't read into anything, nor research. 10 seconds of reading/research would lead you to the conclusion of the KA24DE being from the 240sx car, which is Nissan.

The money your spending you'd find it 1) easier and 2) cheaper for the LSx engines. Then you'd get more power right off the bat. But then again, fail is strong.

BenR, There have been only of few instances of oil starvation from the KA in my area. Both were on a track with a very high banked turn. Again only two that I know of. There could be more.

But even still, I would go SR over KA just due to reliability issues.

Take my advice FWIW as Joe Nobody on the internets.

Since the focus of this car will be for the track, and you're going through the trouble of a swap, might as well at least take care of the oil starvation issues the KA's seem to have on track.

I've seen enough that it isn't a coincidence. Yea sure there are several drift guys that drift a stock KA or KA-T, and there are several autocross guys that autocross the stock KA or KA-T. The g loads are not in the same direction, and are more of a spike not sustained.

I wouldn't expect to push a stock SR much past 300rwhp reliably and track it hard.

Beg to differ on the SR. There are quite a few out here that run stock internal SR's in drift/autocross (not that much)/HPE events all the time. Many of which are in or past the 300rwhp range. The Stock SR is a nicely built engine that can handle it.

KA, again, seen only 2 go out on oil starvation issues. I'd have to see more before I could say it's a problem. Also been in the 240sx arena for some time, and that wasn't the greatest of concerns.

The SR's I used to run would handle a little over 300whp before the head would start to float. Over 300whp you should at least get head studs and a good head gasket. I'd reccomend cutting some o-rings, but good luck finding someone with the tool for that in the US.

Also getting a JDM SR is a 75% type of deal, about 1 in 4 had some kind of weirdness. I saw one where the webbing for the main had been rewelded, assumingly from the factory.

Hmm, never heard of that problem. The biggest problem was the lifters, but that was/is an easy fix.

With any swapped out engine, I'd always change gaskets and water/oil pumps. But the internals, pistons/rods/etc are very capable of 300rwhp. I'd still say a SR over the KA, I even thought of the SR in the Miata, and still might do that, if my second engine doesn't hold up.

Yeah, the first RB25 I saw, the guy had glass in the inlets of the turbo. I guess when the windshield got smashed, it got everywhere.

Let's do this again.

I do not want a nissan or honda or LSx motor because everybody and his uncle is using those. I want an underdog that everyone least expects to be fast or exciting.

I have been talking to some people and I can get a Duratec 2.3 for free. This is essentially the same motor in the NC miata. The downsides are:

1) there's not enough data out there on how long they last at 300 whp.

2) will need custom intake and exhaust manifolds, which is not a problem for me.

Upsides are:

1) Considering no one has done this in a north-south configuration, it would be a cool project to have a 510 or RX7 with a turbocharged Ford motor.

2) They make killer torque, I've seen 270+ ft-lbs between 3500 and 7000 RPM.

3) Trans is fairly cheap - I'm thinking Quad4Rods bellhousing and Mustang T5 box, or a Ranger trans.

Miata engine, its a no-brainer. I've megasquirted two of them. But the engine is 150 lbs heavier. This will greatly upset the already 55/45 weight distribution on the car. Trans parts are more expensive.

I would love to hear what people's experience has been as far as longevity of the Miata 1.8 when it is making 300 whp.

Trust me, no one cares about the underdog. A 1.6L turbo'd Miata w/200rwhp is fast and exciting.

I have been talking to some people and I can get a Duratec 2.3 for free. This is essentially the same motor in the NC miata. The downsides are:

Should be a warning sign. Be the first to do it and find out the engine can't handle it and you'll be rebuilding an engine. Probably wishing you had something different.

How is that not a problem? If you weld I understand. If not more money you need to get it running.

Upsides are:

There is a reason no one has done the north to south configuration...the money spent doesn't equal the amount of power that an easier swap could accomplish.

Allot of engines make killer torque. Like a LS1. Get the right turbo on any engine, and they can make great torque.

3) Trans is fairly cheap - I'm thinking Quad4Rods bellhousing and Mustang T5 box, or a Ranger trans.

why wasn't this in the negatives section? So a heavier engine. Untested at the power levels you want. Parts that are more expensive. Mmmmmm, sound like disaster in the making.

I would love to hear what people's experience has been as far as longevity of the Miata 1.8 when it is making 300 whp.[/QUOTE]

The fail is strong. Oh so strong!

You realize the amount of fabrication that will be needed is going to offset the free stuff you are getting. Not to mention building the engine to hold 300rwhp. Then to get it running properly.

When all you'd have to buy is turbo'd engine from the factory or a LS motor...but you are trying to be unique. Trust me, no one is going to be like, "oh damn, a sleeper. Dude he's going to kill it out there." or "dude he is soooo unique. that is the way to go, be unique."

You seem to be looking for a unicorn you don't have to pay for.

Given the upgrades to the engine in turbo form for the Mazdaspeed products running less than 300chp, I wouldn't have too much confidence in the na engine going turbo at a higher hp level. And if it does fail, then you're where you would be with a Miata engine- ready for forged parts.

What's missing from your project is a budget for the pieces.

I wouldn't bother with a 510 or older RX7 - why go into it with a suspension deficit?

I understand the weight advantage of the duratec, but two strikes against it for being an unknown entity under boost, and for creating a rwd transmission challenge.

Rx7 turbo II is your answer. Superb suspension and driveline. FE3 bolts up with an adapter plate. You just need to use a proper spline up on the clutch disk. The biggest jobs will be modding the kia oil pan to fit the subframe, adding a new plenum to the chopped intake manifold and motor mounts. 1.8 Miata exhaust manifolds bolt up with flange work. The fe3 is capable of similar power band with torque - as with all things it depends on components and tune.

You know, my thing is that if he couldn't afford an SR swap, how is he going to do this. The SR would be easier because you can get them from $2-4k depending on what flavor you like. That comes with Transmission, electronics, turbo'd engine, etc.

This you will need at the very least:

Turbo components
Custom engine brackets
Custom intake
Electronics
Transmission and components
Piping for the turbo system

To me, the cheaper way and way in which to get more power is the SR. And we aren't even talking about suspension yet.

Now we're getting somewhere. Any idea on what components the turbo'ed MZR's have different to the duratec? If its just rods then we can take care of that fairly cheaply.

The budget is not over $2k for the engine/trans. Turbo on top of that figure.

so, its similar work to the duratec, but any idea on how much it weighs?


Was there a useful suggestion in any of that? You should probably know that I do vehicle development for a living and have a 100,000 sq.ft. shop at my disposal with everything but a CNC 5-axis mill in it.

Then why not a SR? You are spending your time and money into nothing. No one is really going to be surprised when your engine pops...

If you got that much equipment and experience, why not weld 2 blocks together, mill your own crank and make your own V8 BP.

He's trying to be cool and not use a V8...remember? Even though, that would probably be the coolest thing I'd seen in some time.

He could still claim it was a miata motor.



Or why not a turbo twin busa motored car, one in front and one in the trunk.

+1. I don't get the OP at all. You want everything at no expense, while simultaneously having the best for the least amount of work, and also something different and unique that's also considered an underdog. Cheap, easy, fast, reliable, common, and different. Yeah....

I don't think you're weight argument for the duratec is a big enough issue. The FE is just over 60lbs heavier than a 1.8 miata engine. But if you've got that kind of a budget, why not just build a 1.8 Miata engine and put it in a tII? $2k is more than enough to cover forged parts, bearings and rings given your resources. And given the small size, you'll have room to sit it further back and lower - since it's physically smaller than the duractec. Which btw is a tall engine.

This is going downhill fast. Thanks everyone for their help and inputs.

m2, i will need to research the fe3 a little bit more when i have the time. appreciate your inputs.

I don't think there is a simple answer to your question.

The EASY answer would be the Miata BP engine & turbo, although you may not get to that 300hhp figure safely without some internal work, more $$ yes, but I guess you know these engines inside out.

Duratec would be cool, but you'd be going into relatively untested waters there and who knows what could happen? it might end up being the best swap you ever did, or the worst. It's a bit of a gamble.

V8 would get you your power, but not without a fair amount of work in modifying your miata.

turbo miata > this nissan ------ry

This swap: 1. Check 2. relatively, Check 3. Check 4. Check 5. Kia sportage? Check 6. Somewhat, Check.

I'm kinda getting tired after reading past the Second page, but I think the fella, (m2cupcar) is right on. You want a TurboII FC, with a popped wankel. Shouldn't be hard, some moron who has no idea how to maintain a rotary is surely out there with a blown TurboII. You get the great rear end, great trans, and you've got a good chasis. Get an FE3 motor. Get a BP turbo Manifold. Go to town. Here's some info. It will hold the 300Hp Reliably without too much worry, if you get a good Engine from the yards. Expect 150-500$ at a you-pull-it, since the Engine comes from a Kia Sportage. Nobody knows its a mazda motor, they hear kia, and the whole freaking car could be bought running for $500. I'm brewing up a project NA with one of these things next year, after the MSM is all done with its engine rebuild. I am betting the NA with a FE3T will beat it out power wise.

Shatty parts you'd have to source not from the Kia include a flywheel/clutch solution, European/NewZealand/Japanese cams (exhaust for CAS) and a few other bits, but there are at least a dozen documented miata installs, many with turbos.

Here is some info, hope it helps, read it and you should see the potential of this motor.
Solomiata : Interchange : FE3 motor
Solomiata : Interchange : Detailed FE3 information
Freds master FE3 index thread - Please don't post. - Mazda MX6 Forums: MX6 Forum
MX-5 Miata Forum - 2.0L FE3 miata is done... Picts..
Mazda FE-DOHC engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MX-5 Miata Forum - FE3 conversion parts cost

I forgot this guy, sorry.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/208651

I bet my car is putting down 300whp now with lots and lots more torque than most on this forum. Put down a 6-speed and the rest will be fine.

That's fine and all... but all the betting and guessing doesn't give anyone a dyno to compare it to.... Although, torque is good, most people will agree.

I dunno about the 6-gang. I'm not a huge fan of mine, as with most of the MSM community. It has a lot of issues with shifting consistency. Can't beat the MSM's shot-peened gears for power holding, but the 4.11 gears coupled with the 6's ratios sucks ass for anything aside from 60ft times and stop light drag racing. Of course, IMO. I guess, the 6speed with its faults is better than the 5 speed gernading at the ~300whp mark.

this trans shifts ultra-smooth. I take back what I said in other threads...probably the best shifting trans I know of.