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Old 03-03-2009, 03:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by BenR View Post
The SR's I used to run would handle a little over 300whp before the head would start to float. Over 300whp you should at least get head studs and a good head gasket. I'd reccomend cutting some o-rings, but good luck finding someone with the tool for that in the US.

Also getting a JDM SR is a 75% type of deal, about 1 in 4 had some kind of weirdness. I saw one where the webbing for the main had been rewelded, assumingly from the factory.
Hmm, never heard of that problem. The biggest problem was the lifters, but that was/is an easy fix.

With any swapped out engine, I'd always change gaskets and water/oil pumps. But the internals, pistons/rods/etc are very capable of 300rwhp. I'd still say a SR over the KA, I even thought of the SR in the Miata, and still might do that, if my second engine doesn't hold up.

Yeah, the first RB25 I saw, the guy had glass in the inlets of the turbo. I guess when the windshield got smashed, it got everywhere.
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:57 PM   #42
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Let's do this again.

I do not want a nissan or honda or LSx motor because everybody and his uncle is using those. I want an underdog that everyone least expects to be fast or exciting.

I have been talking to some people and I can get a Duratec 2.3 for free. This is essentially the same motor in the NC miata. The downsides are:

1) there's not enough data out there on how long they last at 300 whp.

2) will need custom intake and exhaust manifolds, which is not a problem for me.

Upsides are:

1) Considering no one has done this in a north-south configuration, it would be a cool project to have a 510 or RX7 with a turbocharged Ford motor.

2) They make killer torque, I've seen 270+ ft-lbs between 3500 and 7000 RPM.

3) Trans is fairly cheap - I'm thinking Quad4Rods bellhousing and Mustang T5 box, or a Ranger trans.

Miata engine, its a no-brainer. I've megasquirted two of them. But the engine is 150 lbs heavier. This will greatly upset the already 55/45 weight distribution on the car. Trans parts are more expensive.

I would love to hear what people's experience has been as far as longevity of the Miata 1.8 when it is making 300 whp.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
Let's do this again.

I do not want a nissan or honda or LSx motor because everybody and his uncle is using those. I want an underdog that everyone least expects to be fast or exciting.
Trust me, no one cares about the underdog. A 1.6L turbo'd Miata w/200rwhp is fast and exciting.

I have been talking to some people and I can get a Duratec 2.3 for free. This is essentially the same motor in the NC miata. The downsides are:

Quote:
1) there's not enough data out there on how long they last at 300 whp.
Should be a warning sign. Be the first to do it and find out the engine can't handle it and you'll be rebuilding an engine. Probably wishing you had something different.

Quote:
2) will need custom intake and exhaust manifolds, which is not a problem for me.
How is that not a problem? If you weld I understand. If not more money you need to get it running.

Upsides are:

Quote:
1) Considering no one has done this in a north-south configuration, it would be a cool project to have a 510 or RX7 with a turbocharged Ford motor.
There is a reason no one has done the north to south configuration...the money spent doesn't equal the amount of power that an easier swap could accomplish.

Quote:
2) They make killer torque, I've seen 270+ ft-lbs between 3500 and 7000 RPM.
Allot of engines make killer torque. Like a LS1. Get the right turbo on any engine, and they can make great torque.

3) Trans is fairly cheap - I'm thinking Quad4Rods bellhousing and Mustang T5 box, or a Ranger trans.

Quote:
Miata engine, its a no-brainer. I've megasquirted two of them. But the engine is 150 lbs heavier. This will greatly upset the already 55/45 weight distribution on the car. Trans parts are more expensive.
why wasn't this in the negatives section? So a heavier engine. Untested at the power levels you want. Parts that are more expensive. Mmmmmm, sound like disaster in the making.

I would love to hear what people's experience has been as far as longevity of the Miata 1.8 when it is making 300 whp.[/QUOTE]

The fail is strong. Oh so strong!

You realize the amount of fabrication that will be needed is going to offset the free stuff you are getting. Not to mention building the engine to hold 300rwhp. Then to get it running properly.

When all you'd have to buy is turbo'd engine from the factory or a LS motor...but you are trying to be unique. Trust me, no one is going to be like, "oh damn, a sleeper. Dude he's going to kill it out there." or "dude he is soooo unique. that is the way to go, be unique."
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:23 PM   #44
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You seem to be looking for a unicorn you don't have to pay for.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:30 PM   #45
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Given the upgrades to the engine in turbo form for the Mazdaspeed products running less than 300chp, I wouldn't have too much confidence in the na engine going turbo at a higher hp level. And if it does fail, then you're where you would be with a Miata engine- ready for forged parts.

What's missing from your project is a budget for the pieces.

I wouldn't bother with a 510 or older RX7 - why go into it with a suspension deficit?

I understand the weight advantage of the duratec, but two strikes against it for being an unknown entity under boost, and for creating a rwd transmission challenge.

Rx7 turbo II is your answer. Superb suspension and driveline. FE3 bolts up with an adapter plate. You just need to use a proper spline up on the clutch disk. The biggest jobs will be modding the kia oil pan to fit the subframe, adding a new plenum to the chopped intake manifold and motor mounts. 1.8 Miata exhaust manifolds bolt up with flange work. The fe3 is capable of similar power band with torque - as with all things it depends on components and tune.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:43 PM   #46
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Given the upgrades to the engine in turbo form for the Mazdaspeed products running less than 300chp, I wouldn't have too much confidence in the na engine going turbo at a higher hp level. And if it does fail, then you're where you would be with a Miata engine- ready for forged parts.

What's missing from your project is a budget for the pieces.

I wouldn't bother with a 510 or older RX7 - why go into it with a suspension deficit?

I understand the weight advantage of the duratec, but two strikes against it for being an unknown entity under boost, and for creating a rwd transmission challenge.

Rx7 turbo II is your answer. Superb suspension and driveline. FE3 bolts up with an adapter plate. You just need to use a proper spline up on the clutch disk. The biggest jobs will be modding the kia oil pan to fit the subframe, adding a new plenum to the chopped intake manifold and motor mounts. 1.8 Miata exhaust manifolds bolt up with flange work. The fe3 is capable of similar power band with torque - as with all things it depends on components and tune.
You know, my thing is that if he couldn't afford an SR swap, how is he going to do this. The SR would be easier because you can get them from $2-4k depending on what flavor you like. That comes with Transmission, electronics, turbo'd engine, etc.

This you will need at the very least:

Turbo components
Custom engine brackets
Custom intake
Electronics
Transmission and components
Piping for the turbo system

To me, the cheaper way and way in which to get more power is the SR. And we aren't even talking about suspension yet.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Given the upgrades to the engine in turbo form for the Mazdaspeed products running less than 300chp, I wouldn't have too much confidence in the na engine going turbo at a higher hp level.
Now we're getting somewhere. Any idea on what components the turbo'ed MZR's have different to the duratec? If its just rods then we can take care of that fairly cheaply.

The budget is not over $2k for the engine/trans. Turbo on top of that figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Rx7 turbo II is your answer. Superb suspension and driveline. FE3 bolts up with an adapter plate. You just need to use a proper spline up on the clutch disk. The biggest jobs will be modding the kia oil pan to fit the subframe, adding a new plenum to the chopped intake manifold and motor mounts. 1.8 Miata exhaust manifolds bolt up with flange work. The fe3 is capable of similar power band with torque - as with all things it depends on components and tune.
so, its similar work to the duratec, but any idea on how much it weighs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BarrigaNA View Post
blah

blah

blah
Was there a useful suggestion in any of that? You should probably know that I do vehicle development for a living and have a 100,000 sq.ft. shop at my disposal with everything but a CNC 5-axis mill in it.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
Now we're getting somewhere. Any idea on what components the turbo'ed MZR's have different to the duratec? If its just rods then we can take care of that fairly cheaply.

The budget is not over $2k for the engine/trans. Turbo on top of that figure.



so, its similar work to the duratec, but any idea on how much it weighs?




Was there a useful suggestion in any of that? You should probably know that I do vehicle development for a living and have a 100,000 sq.ft. shop at my disposal with everything but a CNC 5-axis mill in it.
Then why not a SR? You are spending your time and money into nothing. No one is really going to be surprised when your engine pops...
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:28 PM   #49
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If you got that much equipment and experience, why not weld 2 blocks together, mill your own crank and make your own V8 BP.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:31 PM   #50
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If you got that much equipment and experience, why not weld 2 blocks together, mill your own crank and make your own V8 BP.
He's trying to be cool and not use a V8...remember? Even though, that would probably be the coolest thing I'd seen in some time.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:34 PM   #51
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He could still claim it was a miata motor.



Or why not a turbo twin busa motored car, one in front and one in the trunk.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
You seem to be looking for a unicorn you don't have to pay for.
+1. I don't get the OP at all. You want everything at no expense, while simultaneously having the best for the least amount of work, and also something different and unique that's also considered an underdog. Cheap, easy, fast, reliable, common, and different. Yeah....
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:43 PM   #53
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I don't think you're weight argument for the duratec is a big enough issue. The FE is just over 60lbs heavier than a 1.8 miata engine. But if you've got that kind of a budget, why not just build a 1.8 Miata engine and put it in a tII? $2k is more than enough to cover forged parts, bearings and rings given your resources. And given the small size, you'll have room to sit it further back and lower - since it's physically smaller than the duractec. Which btw is a tall engine.
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Old 03-03-2009, 06:12 PM   #54
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This is going downhill fast. Thanks everyone for their help and inputs.

m2, i will need to research the fe3 a little bit more when i have the time. appreciate your inputs.
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Old 03-03-2009, 06:15 PM   #55
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I don't think there is a simple answer to your question.

The EASY answer would be the Miata BP engine & turbo, although you may not get to that 300hhp figure safely without some internal work, more $$ yes, but I guess you know these engines inside out.

Duratec would be cool, but you'd be going into relatively untested waters there and who knows what could happen? it might end up being the best swap you ever did, or the worst. It's a bit of a gamble.

V8 would get you your power, but not without a fair amount of work in modifying your miata.
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:50 PM   #56
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turbo miata > this nissan ------ry
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Old 05-11-2009, 08:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Cheap, easy, fast, reliable, common, and different. Yeah....
This swap: 1. Check 2. relatively, Check 3. Check 4. Check 5. Kia sportage? Check 6. Somewhat, Check.

I'm kinda getting tired after reading past the Second page, but I think the fella, (m2cupcar) is right on. You want a TurboII FC, with a popped wankel. Shouldn't be hard, some moron who has no idea how to maintain a rotary is surely out there with a blown TurboII. You get the great rear end, great trans, and you've got a good chasis. Get an FE3 motor. Get a BP turbo Manifold. Go to town. Here's some info. It will hold the 300Hp Reliably without too much worry, if you get a good Engine from the yards. Expect 150-500$ at a you-pull-it, since the Engine comes from a Kia Sportage. Nobody knows its a mazda motor, they hear kia, and the whole freaking car could be bought running for $500. I'm brewing up a project NA with one of these things next year, after the MSM is all done with its engine rebuild. I am betting the NA with a FE3T will beat it out power wise.

Shatty parts you'd have to source not from the Kia include a flywheel/clutch solution, European/NewZealand/Japanese cams (exhaust for CAS) and a few other bits, but there are at least a dozen documented miata installs, many with turbos.

Here is some info, hope it helps, read it and you should see the potential of this motor.
Solomiata : Interchange : FE3 motor
Solomiata : Interchange : Detailed FE3 information
Freds master FE3 index thread - Please don't post. - Mazda MX6 Forums: MX6 Forum
MX-5 Miata Forum - 2.0L FE3 miata is done... Picts..
Mazda FE-DOHC engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MX-5 Miata Forum - FE3 conversion parts cost

I forgot this guy, sorry.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/208651

Last edited by chance91; 05-11-2009 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:33 PM   #58
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I bet my car is putting down 300whp now with lots and lots more torque than most on this forum. Put down a 6-speed and the rest will be fine.
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Old 05-11-2009, 10:43 PM   #59
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I bet my car is putting down 300whp now with lots and lots more torque than most on this forum. Put down a 6-speed and the rest will be fine.
That's fine and all... but all the betting and guessing doesn't give anyone a dyno to compare it to.... Although, torque is good, most people will agree.

I dunno about the 6-gang. I'm not a huge fan of mine, as with most of the MSM community. It has a lot of issues with shifting consistency. Can't beat the MSM's shot-peened gears for power holding, but the 4.11 gears coupled with the 6's ratios sucks *** for anything aside from 60ft times and stop light drag racing. Of course, IMO. I guess, the 6speed with its faults is better than the 5 speed gernading at the ~300whp mark.
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:51 PM   #60
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this trans shifts ultra-smooth. I take back what I said in other threads...probably the best shifting trans I know of.
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