Is it perception, or did lots of stock cars just get faster?
 

I think back to about 3-years ago when I started hitting the track and it seemed like a 250whp Miata killed at the track. Now cars like lightly modded Mustangs, STI's, Evo's, BMW's, NC's, Caddilacs, and especially Ferrari and Porsches have become amazingly fast out of the box? This shit is not fair.

It is considering when your miata cost less to buy and build then all those cars you mentioned. More like stock cars are becoming even now with our Turbo'd gaysleds

Its a horsepower battle all over again with the big car manufacturers. Car makers are now able to get decent (not great) gas milage with massive engines, so their going for it again. My 2 c

moar boost

Look at the brakes, suddenly 4-slugger Brembos are standard fare. Suddenly the Mustang is holding 1g sustained.

Its called progress, look it up.

It's become a game leap frog. My '89 LX 5.0 was the shit back in high school/college (and they weren't bad as SCCA street-prepared auto-xers either), then the mid/late 90s 4th gen Camaro blew that out of the water. All of a sudden, though, it seems like all the expensive toys like VVT, stupid-big brakes and decent legs have trickled down to the middle class. That new 5.0 Mustang makes my pants go nuts, BTW... a far, far cry from 1977...

http://cobraii.mustangii.net/images/...angCobraII.jpg

Wow, there are Mustang II fans? Who knew?

It's cyclic. Car manufacturers build higher HP cars for the mass market, then govt decides to increase fuel mileage requirements, HP gets fuxored to meet fuel/emissions requirements, manufacturers figure out how to make power on the new standards, then standards get re-raised....

Case in point: C4 Corvette

If you want a new high HP car, better plan to get it in the next couple of years, before gov't raises that 30mpg fleet avg to 38mpg

turn the boost up you fucking pussy

It sucks. I remember back in High Schoolish times if you could pull a 13 at the track you were awesome. Everyone thought my 9000 turbo saab was a beast. (14.6) Now i would laugh at my saab while pulling away from it in 5th gear not even bothering to downshift. It seemed like LS1 camaros were the shit. Well, I still love those cars....whatever. Times change, we just have to put bigger turbos and injectors on our fag rockets. After we get tired of getting beat by 12 second minivans and suv's we will man up and all just start rolling 3071's.

Its not just the power. They are now engineering great suspensions/brakes into regular cars to make the enthusiast and regular joe both happy. I ran 2:11's all day long at TWS in a bone stock understeering 4cyl Hyundai in early 2009. If you had told that to someone in 2005 they would have laughed at you.

I get what Hustler is saying. If he counted what he has in his miata I bet its close to 15-20k. It has no warranty, is almost 20 years old, etc. He can now go buy a new Mustang throw pads and tires on it and run the same times. Then drive home without the fear that his torsen going out or brakes or or or. If he has a problem he just drops it off at the dealer with his painters tape removed.

I'm not hating on Hustlers car, anyone would be lucky to have it. When he started building it that was how you got a 15k supercar. Now they come off the lot that way. I just watched a 2011 Mustang on youtube run a 1:30 at Hallet in traffic, talking to a passenger, not attacking. With tires, pads, attack mode it would be in the low 20's...lol Makes you think a little.

Erm, how much less though? I know I've spent like over 15K on modifications for my car and I think hustler has probably spent about that too.

So the new game is that in order to beat common stock cars with a miata (in a straight line), you need a built engine AND a big turbo. Kinda sucks.

Although they're definitely fast out of the box, I doubt the 2011 Mustang is the most confidence inspiring car on the track. When I first purchased my 2010 Mustang, I thought that it handled great compared to previous generations of Mustangs. However, after I started driving my Miata again a few weeks later I soon realized that the handling was nothing to write home about.

If you're having troubles on the track with a turbo Miata, throw your turbo drivetrain into a Locost type car or perform an LS* swap. :)

You too mr 18psi. Shit. Your turbo is bigger than mine AND you have e85. What are you waiting for?

Saw a similar bit at the Texas Mile. Guys had years invested in building/tuning/refining/retuning their cars to see 150+ mph standing miles. In comes a young 20-something who had purchased a Nissan GT-R the week prior turn a 167, w/ A/C on and his girlfriend in the car.

Of course a dozen years ago you needed to buy a Ferrari to have paddle shifters in your car; now you can get them with a slushbox Miata...

Exactly, its not fair. Just 3-years ago a 1:28.5 at Hallett was fast, now its "run of the mill" for a street car in the $40k range. I suppose its more reason to push it harder and man up...John and I think it can do 1:25 with some work.

BTW, I'd love to get an S197 and a set of these.

Factory cars are getting sick. Companies are finally staring to understand consumers want performance. Nut just "muscle" cars either. Look at Suzuki and the Kizashi, Hyundai and the genesis. Light years beyond what could of been picked up years ago in that price range.

It's frustrating, but keep in mind that new cars say 15,000+ will still always be more expensive than a cheap 20yo miata with a decent setup. If you think about it the other way around, new car owners might think it's not fair that they just spent huge bucks, and a cheap 20 year old miata just ran them down.

Last I checked most current production cars weigh ~500lbs or more than miatas, so I think there is still an advantage.

My car costs less to own and insure win win situation. I dont have any stupid smog bs screaming at me all the time to not kill trees and club baby seals and, I dont feel like i am destroying a major investment when i decide to make a change(more boost) or try and unorthodox part(WI and wet nitrous shot) etc.
The simplicity of the miata wins hands down for me. I dont want to have to get out the multi meter/scantool/osciliscope, to diagnose why my throttle by wire is having a hicup on down shifts and lagging the rpms. I just trace the cable and figure out wtf is going on. (Another huge bonus is that my car cant be onstarred to stop at a railraod track or just die while merging onto a highway ) Slim chance i know but it is there if not with malice than maybe from someone leaning on the wrong console or pushing the wrong button or some pc glitch. To much tech gets in the way of driving and ultimatly will make us worse drivers.

I totally agree and love the simplicity in my track car and my daily driver, and that's probably while I'll never buy an expensive, new car. The cheap consumable are great too.

ok, the gtr i can believe. i've seen those and they are indeed fast on track. but i'm not so sure i subscribe to the notion other cars are fast.

witness bmw 135i. randy managed to flog it around laguna seca @ 1:46.X (from the sound of it, on streets). this is a sec or 2 slower than what the spec miata guys run iirc. iirc sav ran a 1:36.X

so looks like a well driven 135i is slightly lower than 1.6 na miata on sticky rubber. seems reasonable 135i on sticky rubber would be similar speed to slower turbo miatas, but i would be surprised if one could make it into 1:3X

is this a different situation than before?

Oh come on, its a 135i.....That thing is like the Ford Tempo of BMWs. It is a luxurious econobox.

The answer is MOAR BOOST

Yeah and for a cheap transfer of money, that thing can be tuned to make much bigger numbers. Stock they're "meh", but it doesn't take much to make them fast.....but they still suck for not having a LSD.

lol I would but I don't have ferrari's or z06's chasing me around here and am perfectly happy at my current power level.


hustler your setup will take 20psi and like it. you have the built motor, you have the drivetrain, and the suspension. only thing stopping you from being much faster is you.

New cars have gotten much faster. Hell, a new Toyota Camry V6 is almost as fast in the 1/4 as the mustang GT's were just a few years ago. Last time I was at the drags I lost to a cadillac escalade by about an inch, I had the shittiest launch ever, but still... I think I'm going to hold off on any real go fast miata goodies for awhile until I can get my hands on a 2011 5.0. It comes to a point where it just makes more sense to go with another platform.

The 6-speed and eventually the rear end can't take it. I can go a lot faster without turning up the boost. Watch my Hallett vid, the car is moving.

Ford Taurus SHO. Twin-turbocharged family sedan. 365 AWHP.

ok, if bmw 135i is not what you guys are talking about, somebody please enlighten me with some numbers for a different car which is soo fast.

i'm pretty happy w/ my car. i have drivetrain with good potential. the battle will be in learning to drive it. the brave curve seems non-linear.

oh, there is a 2nd battle. i was planning on going e85. if i crank it up with say, a 3071 to around 400hp the logistics of e85 become quite pita. is it worth carrying around containers to fill up the gas tank for each session? shoot, probably wouldn't even make it through a session @ 400hp. thats like 60 gallons per day. i'd need a transfer pump. ug.

I wouldn't laugh at the 135i. Apparently for ~ 2.5k you can get 400+hp and 380ft lbs and keep a warranty. ECU flash and exhaust.

$1500 gets you those same numbers but no warranty.

That car will make you its bitch. Don't know how it handles though

Feel. Lots of newer, big iron cars don't have much of it…compared to Miatas. That's a big part of the enjoyment, for me anyway. Some newer cars drive more like video games.

Do you have datalogs to confirm this...

LOL...I made 3 local guys' cars drive less like video games and they are STILL thanking me.

I do have some, yes.

sav has no problem with his at 350whp.
and if you know that your biggest limiting factor is your driving right now then wtf is the point in crying about faster cars?

go to the track more often and get the experience to rape face s0n.

Your vids/pics are getting more interesting recently. You're doin something right
awhp? They are awd?

and they only weigh 2.25 tons!

A new regular (not Shelby) Mustang GT with a spool rear, slicks, exhaust, and 100shot ran a 10.9. Still had the stock cats and even the stock intake/filter.
http://www.stangtv.com/forum/jpc-rac...cond-6856.html

But I agree with new cars being like video games... somebody a few days ago here said they walked into BMW dealership and wanted to drive a manual on a test-drive and the salesguy said "Why you want wanna those?"... pretty fucking lame the way some things go.

I'm a bit baffled why some manufacturers don't offer "stripper" cars to customers as special orders in low numbers. I'd love to get a new something off the showroom floor with no radio, electric nothing, manual seats, donut spares all around, etc... They could even keep the intake and exhaust (yah, yah, emissions) and half a dozen other things. I'm not in the market for anything new right now, but just saying. Obviously it would have to be an all or nothing special order.

I think it's bullshit that when you want to buy just one option on a new car (sunroof), you also have to buy the "technology package" or some other bullshit that end up running you like $5k.

yeah, it is bullshit. At one point I wanted a base RX-8 with a sunroof, no can do! you have to get the sport package, with the Xenon lights, the "blose" stereo, etc for another $5k, just for the damn sunroof.

If you want data on the factory "stripper" cars just look at the '03 club sport miata, they just could not sell, but the SCCA requirement may have had something to do with that as well.

Whorepower development...

Mustang

1974-78 base engine 83-92hp. Top engine 122-139hp
1979-93 base engine 85-105hp. Top engine 140-235hp
1994-04 base engine 145-190hp. Top engine 215-390hp
2005-10 base engine 210-305hp. Top engine 300-550hp

Corvette

1975-77 165-205hp
1978-82 185-200hp
1984-96 230-330hp
1997-04 345-405hp
2005-10 400-638hp

When the base v6 engine in the Mustang makes over 300hp we are definetely in a hp war. Just as we have to upgrade everything in the car to support more horsepower the manufacturers are doing the same. Upgrading brakes, suspension, chassis, tires, etc.

Someone hit on it earlier about the cost of consumables. I know you can buy track day insurance, but I'm probably not going to track a new M3.

I always laugh when I try to get one of the Drs in out group to bring his 04 M3 to the track. He tells me that it would be cheaper for him to rent one of the cars they offer. His consumables. Tires $1200, Pads and rotors were $1200+ I'm not saying that he gets the lowest price, but he takes very good care of the car. He says that one track day eats a lot of tire, pad, and rotor because the car is so heavy. Could you imagine if you had to pay this twice a year because of one or two track days. 5K??? GTFO

Miata: $600 for tires, $200 pads, $100 rotors, For the avg person these will last multiple track sessions and many street miles.

Personally I think the high HP of everyday cars is almost useless. I plan on buying a new M3 when the student loans are paid off. A stock 135i would be more than adequate power-wise for the daily back and forth to work. With an M3 or any car in its class you are paying for COCK status, and as ashamed as I am to admit it, I want it.

I guess my point in all of this babbling is that if you really want to track a car, get something that is cheap to race and maintain. There's really no need for a 600HP DD unless you just want to show people you can afford it.

I've had plenty of the Porsche guys, suprised by how quick an FI Miata is, talk seriously with me about our cars. We go off road and have $100-200 wheels to replace, $25 used control arms to buy, etc. Have an off in a Porsche and you've got a $500-$1000 wheel and $1200 in suspension parts to buy. Not all the guys driving spendy cars at the track are rich. A lot of the non wealthy guys appreciate how affordable and smart it would be to have an FI Miata for the track and not take the daily driver Porsche.

maybe you guys are right, this is a new golden age of the fossil burners, ala late '60s. i am digging the competition between the traditional v8 platform vs the turbo 4 vs the turbo diesel which is starting to come into its own, courtesy of audi marketing (lemans). there are some good choices out there. even the itb 6cyl in the e46 m3 is outgunned now, and that was a 100hp/liter motor.

but yet, i still feel pretty fucking smug. and i have this feeling i've had this conversation before....

GT500:
3820/550 = 6.9 lbs/hp

me:
2286/325 = 7.03 lbs/hp

i know the first thing somebody is going to say is the gt500 has lots of potential and can be modified to put down bigger numbers yada yada yada

i have 2 comments:
1) show me the #'s. around a road course. show me this thing is actually fast. don't just hit me the same frozen turkey as in that last thread.

2) you guys are fucking cheap. ppl who modify gt500's drop coin with a capital c. $2k wheels. $1k intake. $4k suspension. ask you guys to drop any money and ya'll be screaming the world is ending. put some coin into the miata and who can touch you?

We would probably have awesome fucking parts too if we werent so cheap.

A 2011 Mustang Gt with the Brembo package and pads would take most of you at most tracks...lol

And a Caterham would rape its face. The point is, there's always something faster and driving a communicative car is much more satisfying (to me anyway) than sailing a yacht around the track. Trust me, I have to captain a Mustang around multiple times a week and can't say that I enjoy it very much except for on the highway.

We obviously have no personal safety standards. People don't point us by because they assume we will crash in front of them, or burst into flame.

I agree, feel/control/directness/communication make for a nice driving car. Folks dismiss that all the time and add mods that harm such characteristics yet help lap times. So are you trying to enjoy and improve the driving aspect or mostly speed up the part where you are just a passenger (straights)?

Some people just love being ahead of others. One guy in a Z06 was taking it easy in a noobie DE session with many Miatas and similar cars in it. He loved being faster than them….even if they were driving better?!? "I beat everybody!" So is the idea the driving or just being ahead of others that some want?

Joseph B
I've drivin a Caterham 200mph, on the Autobahn, in the dark, while it was raining.

sjmarcy
Sometimes its fun to just drive flat out. I just need something that I can drive in the fastest run group were people have a personel regard for saftey.

Mercedes SLS AMG.

My first thought was "this thing has potential"

Looked it up - 563 RWHP, 479Lb-Ft Torque

Tires:
Front - 265/35 R19
Rear - 295/35 R20

Top Speed (Electronically Limited) 197 MPH

5.6L V8



Then I saw it weight nearly 3700 Lbs.... :( I guess it would make a fantastic daily driver.

while this may be true, jasonb is missing the point. hustler is paying out of pocket to develop his car (obviously with support of miata vendor community). when he takes it on-track he is driving with ppl who throw down good times because of development paid for by the make - ford, porsche, gm, etc. the development cost is tiny for a company with a huge install base, but rather painful for a small community of enthusiasts.

:rofl: you just argued with yourself wow.

(i was expecting to get bitch slapped but then nobody did. so i had to concede hustlers point).

Fah. Open the checkbook, cash-out the 401K, sell bodyparts.

Brabus is the answer:



and if that isn't enough:




- L

There was a new S197 on r-comps (and gorgeous BBS) at ECR and it was VERY fast. It was comparable to my car with the 200lb passenger, but he had AC and probably vajayjay at home. I went home to my apartment and cried alone, in the cold.