Perhaps an entirely new group of fan boys to offend?
 

the only pc going in my car will be a carputer!!











For porno on long roadtrips.

Uh huh.

I keep my nose out of the SC business....but I've never understood the lack of timing and fueling with all the miata superchargers out there....I dunno how many "pinging at 2psi" threads I've seen....

The core of the supercharger market is the person who installs it on his DD and doesn't want to learn how to program some new software to make his car run - the wine and cheese crowd if you will.

There are very few people like me for instance who not happy with what I have and want more. Most of the people that buy the FFS Coldside kits (for example) are the "set it and forget it" types. Most of those people don't need timing control and probably don't need the fueling control.

Is the MS better than the PC Pro? Better is a subjective term. A better (pun) and more objective question might be, "Does it have more features?" - absolutely. Specifically, is it "better" for that guy with the M45? That all depends on what he is interested in.

Also, note that my car is running a 65mm/115mm combo today when last year, I was running 65mm/100mm and pinging like crazy. I still don't have any timing control. Do I need one? I think I will now that I want just a little more power (LOL).

Lastly, be careful how you (not you brain) throw the term "fan boy" around. You're going to be using that term a lot if you tag me or that thread as "fan boy". Case in point - I have a turbo and want to know if I can use it help CORKEY OR STEPH.

that conversation could get interesting...

"So, after all of that, the conclusion is that yes, you would need four bigger injectors to up the boost on a 1.6 with the MS system but more fueling is already included with the PC-Pro setup. Further, no you don't need two PC-Pro's on a 1.6. Finally, yes, to get the advantage of knock sensing on a 1.6 you would have to buy a knock sensor for the MS because its not included."

so if I understand that right... the PC-Pro has magical powers and can make a fuel injector flow more at the same pressure and duty cycle than the MS. No wonder they are charging so much for the unit.

Chuck I see the PCPro having a place in certain applicatons. It's a good match for you OBDII guys with factory knock detection systems, non return rails, and a decent intake tract.

The 90-93 has none of those things. A BEGi FMU would do what the PCPro does in this case, for $300 less. However, this guy can spend the same amount he budgeted, but get a better solution that should net him significantly more safety and more power. It's a no brainer. If I knew how to get 10-15 more hp out of your motor without you spending extra $$, with no downside, wouldn't you want me to tell you?

Me be careful how I throw around "fan boy"? Please. Your example doesn't make sense either. I've never knocked your beloved FFS. I think they offer excellent hardware and great customer service. But they are severely limited in the engine management department. SC guys in general seem to be ignorant to engine management... and wonder why their cars don't make good power.

Anyway, it's obvious that the moss guy has no clue what he's talking about at all. And I don't think Tom is up to speed on engine management...

:rofl: have you seen the two PCs installed before :gay:

This is what the OP had to say.

Is the BeGi FMU piggyback? If so, I didn't see where you mentioned that.

Also, where did I accuse you or anyone else of "knocking" FFS?

Tom and I have had an ongoing discussion of about someone ALWAYS recommends a stand-alone as THE solution for everyone. It just isn't in all cases. Yes, it ALWAYS has more features, and it ALWAYS has the ability to squeeze more HP. But that's not what the OP was asking about.

I also agree and said so in my last post that in GENERAL, SC guys are ignorant about engine management. I know I am because a full stand-alone is not what I want. It may be something I want in the future, but not now.

Lastly, a stand-alone is just not for everyone, that's all.

Oh, and 200WHP from a JRSC? Show me someone that has done it and how much did they spend getting it there?

The FMU is a rising rate fuel pressure regulator like what the M45 came with before the PC pro craze hit. No one has hit 200 whp on a m45 without a standalone and or some serius tunning and mods etc to my knowledge the m62 on the other hand is where the market should have landed years ago and i aplaude tom for bringing it to market as soon as the frigin bracket get done.

Solflarick got close (182/157)....and I'm sure he spent $$$$

Tom summed it up for me in his last response... I posted my thoughts over there.

It ties in with web forum mods being sponsors also... just a bad thing. (general web forums btw... no targeting any specifically)

Both Bochinam and JMan did it with the M45...mounted to a coldside BRP intake mani. ;)

Lots of people could be accused of being fan boys. People in glass houses and all that.

Bottom line is that just because something is better doesn't mean it is appropriate in every case. Might as well start arguing the merits of a turbo over a supercharger.

I think the limitations of the hardware are what drives most M45 users to not explore more complex fuel managment.

Chuck, the OP is a little cost conscious. I don't think he realized that there is a strong standalone out there at a piggyback price. But he is looking for competent engine management for his FI track car. Wouldn't he be better off with something that will make more power, with timing control and active knock sensing?

Jay, you may be right. The hardware is limited. However if these guys want to get away from stone age EM, they'll start getting better results.

It's a shame that all those guys who will purchase the FFS 1.6 mp62 kit are going to get PCPros and retard their timing. Tom should open up his eyes, so his customers can make real power, safely.

They wont retard there timming he will go for the best maintainable HP on stock timming. Chuckerants ran all his tests on stock timming etc. This is not a greddy kit they wont need to do the retard thing, the mp62 is effecient enough to not make a whole lot of heat at modest boost levels.

Yes. Assuming he has the time, money and/or ability to tune it. As far as I know there aren't any tuned base maps for the 1.6 JRSC equiped car on the MS are there? I get the idea that he wants to bolt on and go, no tuning.

Your rabid enthusiasm for your particular EMS of choice can be mistaken for having an adgenda or maybe an axe to grind. I know that you are just really excited about the MSPNP, others see it as being a fan boy. Which is ironic considering the name of this thread :)

The PnP MS is also not much more expensive than the PCpro and timing control

Ben,
It's also easy for you to sit on top of your MSPNP perch since you have a car that is successfully running it and putting up good numbers. There are still quite a few stories of people who can't even get theirs to communicate with a PC. Some people aren't geek certified to hook shit up to a PC to get it to work. Then they're stuck because there isn't a "guy" to call for support who has a MS running on the same setup.

Frank

That's not the point. Just because it's priced right and is a "better" product doesn't mean that it is the right product for the user.

Also let's not forget that Ben has his car was professionally tuned by an expert on the MS.

Not knocking you or the MSPNP Ben, it just isn't the be all end all you know?

:hahano:

I didn't mean to come off like a fan boy. Perhaps I did. Good call Jay.
Really I went in there to offer an opinion and an option, and thought I did so in a correct, respectful, and helpful manner.

Frank, I know of only 1 dude with those issues... and his problem is loading usb/serial adaptor drivers on his vista box.

Points well taken.

Tom's tangent is quite amusing.

Ben

Yup, Jerry offered his help, and I got a deal on dyno time. It was a no brainer. And now there is an FI base map for the other guys to start with.
Had that not happened, I would have done it myself. Perhaps I wouldn't have gotten all the power out of it that I did, but if I got it to 90% of current it would have been better than where it was before. FWIW, I tuned the cruising zones myself. :)

Ya he's coming off looking pretty defensive. The mature and business savy thing to have done would to have let you express your opinion and leave it at that. He'll self destruct eventually.

You are smart to have done it. And if I had access to the same resources I'd jump on it. Instead I'm going to have to tune everything myself, and I have so little time to spend with the car I'll be lucky to get it sorted out by the time I park it for the season! Good thing is that the base maps from FM aren't too bad and allow me to drive the car quite happily.

I only pointed out that you had time and money invested into the tuning, where as the PC is supposed to be a plug and go solution. And good on you for helping the rest of the "community". Hopefully DIY will spend some time and money on further improving your map on different cars. Even if they have to charge more for the solution.

Jay

there's a stick shift joke in there somewhere :gay:

Jay, he was doing the "mature" thing for a long time and just letting people bash him and his company. If you look at all the posts about FM, BRP/SOT, and Begi, Tom and FFS is by far the one vendor that gets "bashed" the most frequently. Even when people were getting screwed by Brant of BRP, no one really bashed Brant.

If you haven't noticed this, maybe you will from now on.

I guess you said it clearer than I did, but this is exactly what Tom said and what I've been trying to say.

I don't follow all the drama on m.net. I judged Tom's actions on that thread alone. To me the history doesn't matter, if he is frustrated from past experience maybe he should not be operating the keyboad and leave that to someone more diplomatic. Come on, he prides himself on being abrasive.

The difference is I said what I had to say with out the sarcasm and pseudo wit (Tom not you).

Amazing how we all get so invested in some vendors product that we take it personally when someone points out the short commings. It's not like someone is saying your mom's a whore (I have no knowledge of this either way). :)

I need a nap.

ewwww. Sticky shifter.

Everybody has been bashed is a better idea here. Brant, and the rest of BRP were bashed quite good. Also the FM, BEGI, and the others have all been bashed nicely..... It would seem it's just somebody else's turn. It all goes around.... somebody's the basher/bashie of the week.

Besides, you can always ignore the posts you don't like. <G>

Dave,

I didn't bash Tom/FFS. No one else did either--except maybe Loki just a little.tom gets confrontational semi often. I read a great deal of what he writes, and have seen him get a bit testy.anyway I think that whole thread started going downhill when the ignoramus from moss came in & the slide certainly wasn't arrested by tom.

:rofl: