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Old 09-23-2013, 01:20 AM   #21
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Pretty sure they are all cheating. Everyone ******* cheats, and it's part of the game.
Easy for someone who's never been there to say. Cheating is not a part of the game. You don't win anything.

And the cars that show up are pretty awful. The mag does a great job of making them look good.

I had ideas that everyone was cheating, but wasn't dumn enough to say it. Then I went. Nobody is cheating and i now realize how stupid it is to think they are without doing anything but reading about it.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:11 AM   #22
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So your what, $900 and change into your budget? Still think you can pull off turbos, intercooling, a fuel system, your subframe setup, and everything else under $2013/$2014? These GRM challenges interest me, but I just can't see how people throw together fast cars for that kind of money. Budget wise it looks like you're doing awesome so far though.

I think we may be ok, just gotta buy cheap. All of the really big items have been covered and we're less than halfway through our budget, so I'm feeling pretty good about it. Tires would have been a huge bite, hence my concern about waiting for 2014 and hoping the "free Kumhos" rule stays intact.

The plan for boost is to use those manifolds to install a single large turbo, by fabbing up a "y-pipe". I've been reading up on using diesel truck turbos on gas engines, and while opinions are all over the board on it, there are people successfully running them. I'd prefer twins, but the additional turbo and additional plumbing would probably put us in money trouble.

I don't expect the Audi clip to be cost prohibitive, based on what most Pick and Pull yards charge for that stuff, although locating one still kicking around is proving challenging. One of my fallbacks is '02+ Ford Explorer stuff, which gets me a nice 8.8 chunk, but would require fabbing up some sort of subframe to mount it to. (The Explorer was a full-frame truck.) I'd have them torch the frame just ahead of the rear wheels and just jig off the frame stub. It also screws me on my spiffy bolt pattern, so I'd need to redrill the hubs or something. (The Audi, while a long shot to find, would be much easier and just require mounting the subframe to the Benz shell.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:33 AM   #23
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Easy for someone who's never been there to say. Cheating is not a part of the game. You don't win anything.

And the cars that show up are pretty awful. The mag does a great job of making them look good.

I had ideas that everyone was cheating, but wasn't dumn enough to say it. Then I went. Nobody is cheating and i now realize how stupid it is to think they are without doing anything but reading about it.
I've been there as a spectator a few times and have often wondered how some of these guys pull it off. I mean, even if you get stuff for free you have to assign a fair price to it. One cat told me in great detail how their 4 cam toyota/lexus V8 could be bought "all day, every day, in any junkyard, for $250. Ninja *please*. $250 wouldn't buy the alternator. Or those sweet 180 degree headers on the Nelson Bug; those ******* would cost 1/4 of the budget, not to mention the nasty small block (10 seconds? Really?) theyre hooked to.

But you know what? It's not my problem. I'm not the Budget Inspector. I want to live in a world where everybody plays by the rules and spirit of the thing, so all I can do is play by the rules and the spirit of the thing. I mean, who cares anyway?? Taking on a negative "I'm being cheated" mindset right out of the box would just make it all suck, and saying "**** it, everybody else is cheating so we'll cheat too" is a good way to get busted and have done all this work for nothing. The GRM staff guys aren't stupid after all.

(I sort of liked the old Claim Rule though..)

Anyway, will this car get torn apart and upgraded with some *real* cool stuff the day after the competition? Yes, most likely; I'm not spending $2k and hundreds of hours of work for a two day event. (The car will hopefully see some Autocross/Hillclimb/Track Bomber/General Hooliganism usage in the future... But the car we show up with will be a legit $2k car. Victory wouldn't feel as right otherwise, and we play to win.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:56 AM   #24
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Those cars were very heavy. Shed weight everywhere!
True that. There's a reason why the engineers designing the car dubbed it The Panzerwagon"; it's built like a tank. EVERYTHING that has come out has weighed a ton. Travis and I did a quick guesstimate of how much weight we've pulled out of the car and it's gotta be a thousand pounds, easily. The rear subframe and trailing arms appear to be 1/4" thick steel at minimum, and have to weigh 300 pounds just by themselves. Inner fenders are easily 8 or 10 gauge steel, so yeah, the hole saws and plasma cutter will get a workout before I'm done. On the plus side, its SO strongly built that I might be able to get away without adding a cage (for now). That just depends on if it runs faster than 11.5 in the quarter mile; if you run without a cage the best drag time you can post is 11.5, so if we test and its faster I'll build a cage. Based on previous years, to be competitive overall you definitely need to be in the 11's or better, so a cage (and Ridiculous Boost) will probably be necessary.
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Old 09-23-2013, 07:42 AM   #25
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I might have a large Holset or three that need some TLC that are only legitimately worth core value. I'll see if any are salvageable.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:09 PM   #26
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I've been there as a spectator a few times and have often wondered how some of these guys pull it off. I mean, even if you get stuff for free you have to assign a fair price to it. One cat told me in great detail how their 4 cam toyota/lexus V8 could be bought "all day, every day, in any junkyard, for $250. Ninja *please*. $250 wouldn't buy the alternator.
I can get the 1uz all day for cheaper than that, so.... i'd merely feel sorry that they overpaid for their motor. (And no, i'm not joking.)

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Or those sweet 180 degree headers on the Nelson Bug; those ******* would cost 1/4 of the budget, not to mention the nasty small block (10 seconds? Really?) theyre hooked to.
Andy Nelson is a fab genius. He made those headers out of old scrap pipe. That small block also isn't as special as you'd think it is. I'd be highly surprised if it was making 400whp. What Andy is really good at doing is turning the power that he makes into acceleration. There's nothing wasted. That car was maxed out at the end of the quarter mile. It wouldn't go any faster. It was geared perfectly, transferred the weight perfectly, and hooked perfectly. That's how he builds.

I likely make Andy Nelson-esque amounts of power (haven't dyno'd yet), but i just can't put it down. Or if i could, the compromises i'd have to make would make the car suck ***** on my daily commute. I'll be happy to get into the 12s at all. Power is the biggest thing that makes this car good, but it's also its worst enemy. Nothing like rolling into the gas in 3rd gear at 30mph and watching your 245 width tires go up in smoke.

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But you know what? It's not my problem. I'm not the Budget Inspector. I want to live in a world where everybody plays by the rules and spirit of the thing, so all I can do is play by the rules and the spirit of the thing. I mean, who cares anyway?? Taking on a negative "I'm being cheated" mindset right out of the box would just make it all suck, and saying "**** it, everybody else is cheating so we'll cheat too" is a good way to get busted and have done all this work for nothing. The GRM staff guys aren't stupid after all.
Bingo!

Tim is a straight shooter. If he thinks people are cheating, he'll chew asses. He also isn't much for sugar coating. Someone people last year thought that the quality of the cars was down because there wasn't a ton of batshit crazy insane stupid idea builds. He shot that **** down in a hurry and pretty much said "**** you guys, i see street cars that any moron could put together. I like that ****. **** you if you don't."

And panties were bunched. Too damn bad.

But yeah.... cheating is not a thing. I only noticed one car last year that rubbed me the wrong way. It didn't win anyways.

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(I sort of liked the old Claim Rule though..)

The claim rule is cool... except that if someone claims my ******* daily driver, what the **** do i do then? (MX6 has been my daily for 4.5 years. ) How do i get home? (I drive it to and from the event.) The claim rule coming back would mean i wouldn't do the event anymore. Not because i'd be afraid of my car being claimed, but because i don't have the time or space to build a car dedicated to just this event.

Quote:
Anyway, will this car get torn apart and upgraded with some *real* cool stuff the day after the competition? Yes, most likely; I'm not spending $2k and hundreds of hours of work for a two day event. (The car will hopefully see some Autocross/Hillclimb/Track Bomber/General Hooliganism usage in the future... But the car we show up with will be a legit $2k car. Victory wouldn't feel as right otherwise, and we play to win.
I've had to fight this sort of thing internally with myself concerning the MX6. It shows enough potential that i think it deserves more than The Challenge, despite being a FWD shitbox. I just don't think that's a rabbit hole i'm ready to go down with this particular car.

... And now there's the OLOA Crapcan Class, so....

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Old 09-23-2013, 02:11 PM   #27
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True that. There's a reason why the engineers designing the car dubbed it The Panzerwagon"; it's built like a tank. EVERYTHING that has come out has weighed a ton. Travis and I did a quick guesstimate of how much weight we've pulled out of the car and it's gotta be a thousand pounds, easily. The rear subframe and trailing arms appear to be 1/4" thick steel at minimum, and have to weigh 300 pounds just by themselves. Inner fenders are easily 8 or 10 gauge steel, so yeah, the hole saws and plasma cutter will get a workout before I'm done. On the plus side, its SO strongly built that I might be able to get away without adding a cage (for now). That just depends on if it runs faster than 11.5 in the quarter mile; if you run without a cage the best drag time you can post is 11.5, so if we test and its faster I'll build a cage. Based on previous years, to be competitive overall you definitely need to be in the 11's or better, so a cage (and Ridiculous Boost) will probably be necessary.
You don't need to be in the 11s or better to win overall... but that's probably the only chance your land barge has.

Cages are free if required for $2013 i believe. Might want to double check the rules, but there was a long thread about it a couple months back. I think it was to encourage cross-event entries. Lemons, Chump, GRM Challenge, and now OLOA.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:40 PM   #28
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This is a very interesting project, Ill be following closely so I can potentially do this in the future with Lazarus
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
You don't need to be in the 11s or better to win overall... but that's probably the only chance your land barge has.

Cages are free if required for $2013 i believe. Might want to double check the rules, but there was a long thread about it a couple months back. I think it was to encourage cross-event entries. Lemons, Chump, GRM Challenge, and now OLOA.
Yeah, cages are free as long as they don't tie into suspension pick-up points.

The Claim Rule would have given you $201x dollars for your daily driver; if you wouldn't sell it for that then you shouldn't enter it *because its obviously worth more*. It wasn't a Steal Your Car Rule, it was a Go Ahead And Spend $5k On Your Car Dumbfuck, And Sell It To A Guy You're Trying To Cheat For $201x Rule. I liked the spirit of the thing, but it would clearly make me think about how much labor I put into something. Again, going with your first hand account, it's not a problem that needs fixing.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:23 PM   #30
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Yeah, cages are free as long as they don't tie into suspension pick-up points.

The Claim Rule would have given you $201x dollars for your daily driver; if you wouldn't sell it for that then you shouldn't enter it *because its obviously worth more*. It wasn't a Steal Your Car Rule, it was a Go Ahead And Spend $5k On Your Car Dumbfuck, And Sell It To A Guy You're Trying To Cheat For $201x Rule. I liked the spirit of the thing, but it would clearly make me think about how much labor I put into something. Again, going with your first hand account, it's not a problem that needs fixing.

That's fine, but i wouldn't sell my daily driver for $2013, because you know... i need it to get to work 2 days later.

But yeah... labor is a big thing, and labor is what makes winning cars. In that i've only got a couple hundred hours of labor into my car over the last 4 years, it'll never win.


Either way... look for us when we arrive, we'll have lots of beer with us. Come steal some. Look and listen for the gross-est sounding 80s shitboxes coming into the hotel parking lot, that'll be us.
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:58 PM   #31
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What are you gonna do for fueling and tuning? The lt1s only have tuner cats, Jet dst, and lt1 edit and none are cheap or super common like hp tuners.

you could just run stock manifolds and save the 200 bucks.


as much as I love LT1s I think you probably could have done boost cheaper with a 4.8
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:17 PM   #32
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What are you gonna do for fueling and tuning? The lt1s only have tuner cats, Jet dst, and lt1 edit and none are cheap or super common like hp tuners.

you could just run stock manifolds and save the 200 bucks.


as much as I love LT1s I think you probably could have done boost cheaper with a 4.8
Well, I look at it like this: Tuning software isn't a *part*, it's a *tool* used to tune the stock ECU, and therefore, like any other tool I use for this task it really shouldn't impact my budget. I mean, I'll be using my Bridgeport mill but I'm not going to try to figure out how to fit $10k into my budget, y'know? I'm gonna need a shitpot of hole saws to get this thing down to around 2700 pounds finished, but they don't impact my budget.. Now if I was Megasquirting this mess or something else like that it would be a whole different story, but it seems to me that tuning software for a stock ECU isn't a part per se..

Regarding the manifolds, we're setting the motor back almost 16", which will move the bellhousing about even with the dash and make for a pretty tight pedal box.. It definitely behooves me to keep the overall width of the motor as narrow as possible, so these headers will let me put all the turbo crap up front where the motor used to be. (Wouldn't stock manifolds then have to be piped back up front, or will the stockers fit swapped side for side and just dump to the front?? If they will I'll throw these tubulars on the shelf; the stockers fit tighter to the block anyway and I could use the money in my budget..)
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:28 PM   #33
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Never mind... I just asked one of the guys working late to check and hot damned, you're right!! The stockers fit flipped! Woot! You rock SO ******* hard, thank you!!!!

It sounds like you know your way around LT1's.. The motor seems nice and tight (95k miles in a stretch limo, 230-ish psi on all cylinders, so it should be decent internally- What's the easiest horsepower (aside from the turbo) in a LT1? I know Gen3 and up really well, but these LT motors have never really been on my radar.

Oh, and why LT1 vs 4.8? Because displacement. Plus the LT1 was rated at 10 HP less than my beloved 5.3's stock, so it seemed like a good choice. (And it was stupid cheap..)
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:11 AM   #34
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Manifolds flipped. Courtesy of lt1boost.net


I loved the LT1s, but if I was trying to do something cheap and quick, Id take the LS route instead of paving new ground. You can stroll over the the conversion and hybrid section of LS1tech. In the last couple years the 5.3s and 4.8s have become super popular swaps for boost. People are doing it pretty cheap, with ebay turbos.

I only say for 4.8 because around here no one wants them so they are cheaper, and they are essentially just a short stroke 5.3 with flat top pistons.

Plus everyone has heard of the stock junkyard 4.8 hotrod boosted the **** out of and made 1200hp.

Most of the ls are interchangeable and a good setup can be made using mostly OEM parts.
Lower compression...6.0 heads
better boost cam...LS9 (people used to do the LS6)
better manifold...LS6

Most of the guys doing it cheap and making good power on boosts only durability mod is changing the valve springs.

The wiring is very thoroughly documented for many different chassis and PCM setups.

I know the tuning software wont go into the budget but you do still have to pay for it, but if you go LS, then everyone has HP tuners, and your out 50 bucks for a new vehicle license.

There really isnt cheap easy power with the LT1s besides headers and a tune. If you were staying basically stock and N/A Id stay with the LT1 and a high stall converter. (could probably get into the 11s with a bolt on LT1, with a big stall, light chassis and good traction), If you are def going boost then Id go LS, and just use whatever you could find cheapest be it 6.0, 5.3 or 4.8.
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:11 AM   #35
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Double post but useful advice to ad.

You may want to verify its actually an LT1. Its been a big problem since people started buy LT1s, they get L99s thinking they are LT1s. The L99 is pretty much identical visually but is only 4.3 liters.

I dont remember the details exactly on how to tell, I think the LT1s have 5.7 cast into them on the driver side, but you may want to look it up.

Also if you found an LT1 and you decide to go another route, you got a smoking deal and could probably double your motor. Hell the tranny is worth most of what you paid. Its hard to find a decent complete LT1 around here for under 600, without tranny.
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:22 PM   #36
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Great post, propped.

I'm super familiar with LSx swaps, my shop does them every day, and my '59 F100 shop truck is running a 5.3. I love 'em but generally pay around 1500+ for a decent LM7/4l60 "cutout" with a factory harness and ECU, driveshaft (for the yoke) and accessories, which just couldn't work in my budget. When looking at alternatives I saw that the LT1 made similar power to a 5.3 (10 hp less) but were a LOT less expensive.

I'm sure that its a LT1, I personally pulled it out of a '96 Fleetwood Stretch that had been creamed in the rear. The dude originally wanted $500 but knocked the price down when I offered to pull it. Plus I think he just dug the project.

Ok, so I'm going to see about maybe beefing up the valve springs with the money saved on the manifolds.. Is there an OEM piece that can be used (like LT4 springs or something) or is the aftermarket the way to go?

Thanks for the help-
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Old 09-24-2013, 02:17 PM   #37
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LT4 springs can be found on the second hand market cheap, but are really only worth it if staying with the factory cam, I dont know how much boost changes this.

The cheap asses were running some generic springs from alex parts, and were having great luck
LT1 VALVE SPRING KIT Includes: SPRINGS, RETAINERS, LOCKS & CUPS. - Alex's Parts Sales

Then there are always the Comp 987s, they are cheap, name brand, and work with the factory hardware, so you just need the springs.

Now this is all for the aluminum headed Fbody Lt1, in the b and d bodies you got iron headed lt1s with press in rocker studs, which have a tendency to pop out when running bigger cams and more lift. So before considering springs I would talk to the bbody gurus about spring choice and whether they will endanger the studs or not.
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:38 PM   #38
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OK, so as discussed (albeit briefly) in another thread, I've decided to mess around with using a VGT diesel turbo in The ShitHammer. I think that the unique ability of the VGT's to nearly infinitely vary the hot side AR will come in handy at the Challenge, where a small but ultra fast boosting turbo that builds moderate boost will be the ticket for the Autocross, and a big *** turbo that gives the car a chance to hook before going to Fuckobazoo Boost will be a boon at the drag strip. The plan is to use a conventional external WG to actually control the ultimate boost level, and hook a simple push/pull cable to the VG actuator arm to change the AR characteristics for the different events. (Maybe even slam that sucker from closed and spooly to open and boosty at the 60' mark on the strip. (I know some folks have concerns about the VGT's longevity when exposed to gas engine EGT's, but long life isn't a primary concern in this application. Just big and cheap. Besides, people ARE running VGT's on gas motors and they have survived, so....

I scored a Holset HE531VE off ebay, a fairly large chunk of VGT goodness that's OEM'd on trucks ranging from 5.9 to 13 liters. A rule of thumb I found online is to try to use a diesel turbo that is off a motor that's twice the gas engine's displacement, so this 13 liter stuffing behemoth should be just the ticket. And if not, I'm only out $150 and some fab time. If nothing else it'll look menacing under the hood..

So, another piece in the puzzle taken care of; it's conceivable that the car *could* be ready for the $2013 event. Probably with minimal testing and tuning time, but still there and running.



<Edit>

This space was originally filled with a fascinating yarn about having located a possible alternative car for the event, a clapped out '95 mustang cobra. Turns out the car had some issues that I didn't want to mess with, so no Cobra.

Last edited by Pinky; 09-29-2013 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Change of plans
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:54 PM   #39
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<Edit>. No cobra.

Last edited by Pinky; 09-29-2013 at 04:28 PM. Reason: Lack of cobra
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Old 09-28-2013, 08:59 PM   #40
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<Edit>. Formerly retch inducing picture of junk car..

Last edited by Pinky; 09-29-2013 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Uh..
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