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Old 02-24-2010, 07:47 AM   #1
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Default Unloaded Open Carry

NO MATTER WHAT, BEFORE YOU POST IN THIS THREAD, READ THE FOLLOWING LINK:
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

Then, these are the 2 main websites for OC. Spend some time educating yourself.
http://www.opencarry.org/index.html
http://www.californiaopencarry.org/

It will be really obvious if you start posting and are not educated on this topic. Youíll bring nothing useful to the discussion and it will turn into a trainwreck of off-topic ****-talking (like every thread Hyper posts in usually does). Please take the time to go thoroughly through these websites and become familiar with what theyíre about. Iíve spent about 10hours so far and finally think Iíve got most of it down. MODís, I donít know if thereís any way we can keep this thread from going to ****, but if ever there was topic to over-moderate for derailments, this one might be it.

Discussion:
Basically, in states where it is not specifically prohibited (not many), it is perfectly legal to Open Carry an unloaded and unconcealed firearm on your person. A pistol in a belt holster, for example. You cannot be within 1000ft of a K-12 school, in a federal building (courthouse), a post office, and a few other easily avoidable restrictions. A weapon is considered ďunloadedĒ if the bullets are not in the gun. Having a loaded magazine also on your belt is fully legal as long as itís not in the gun.

The decision to Open Carry is completely different than the decision to Concealed Carry. The basics of the Open vs. Concealed is that Open is argued to be a visible deterrent against crime, while Concealed is a defensive deterrent. Open Carry has the potential to prevent a violent crime much further up the timeline than Concealed. Why wait for the criminal to target you, approach you, demand your money or your wife, then draw your weapon from concealment? Allowing the criminal to see that youíre armed from down the street so he chooses another victim seems sound.

A person needs to philosophically come to the point where he/she has weighed all the proís and conís and that carrying a firearm is for him/her. Typically, the argument that police cannot prevent a violent crime, only show up after to clean up the mess, is sufficient to convince a person that they need to be more responsible for their own personal safety. Is carrying a gun the answer? The individual citizen needs to make that decision for themselves. I have found that it hasnít been an easy decision-making process, and the more I read the more questions I have, but also the more comfortable I am that OC is a good thing.

So, Iím at the point where Iím not overly pleased with the way that our government is running things. I think the 2nd Amendment is actively under attack and has been for some time. I think law enforcement agencies are overworked. I am a new father and my wife isnít the most security conscious type despite my constant reminders. I own a house in Virginia, and a few days ago, the family 2 doors down was burglarizedÖ luckily nobody was home. Iíve never been the victim of a violent crime or been afraid for my life, but I know plenty of people exactly like me who have, while doing the exact things I do. Upon learning of OC, a lot of these concerns Iíve had for years came sharply into focus. Iíd like your thoughts.
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Old 02-24-2010, 07:53 AM   #2
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Good luck if you decide to UOC while you are out in Cali. I have read some of the stories from the open carry site and they say you tend to get harassed when you are doing it. Also watch out for the 1000 feet away from a school property. That apparently is extremely hard to do since it is form the edge of the schools property and tons of things can be considered schools.

Also I want pics of you UOC.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:58 AM   #3
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All depends on your local law enforcement officers. In PA, OC is legal and quite a few of the local range guys do it, but even though they do not need to, they carry around their concealed carry permit, and a copy of the statute allowing open carry (I'm not kidding) because of how often they get stopped by LEOs when in public places. On the PA gun forum there have been many threads about this, and I'd say it is about 50/50 in terms of people saying that the hassle of being frequently stopped by LEOs was not worth it so they just concealed carry and those that have no issues with OC. Also, many members who OC have been politely asked to leave from stores/restaurants/etc... due to complaints by other customers which again can be a hassle. Notably, those without many issues tended to be in the more rural parts of the state.

I'm sure every state is different, but all it takes it one noob officer or bad seed to give you a really hard time. I'm sure it's the exception and not the rule, but there have been some stories like one guy getting handcuffed and facing a wall in a home depot while the four officers were figuring things out. Granted he said the LEOs were polite, but it wasn't a fun experience to spend 45 min handcuffed and facing a wall.

Maybe concealed carry out in public, and open carry anytime you are working around outside the house?
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:54 AM   #4
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I believe my dad has an OC permit in CA. He also pointed out to me just the other day that it was totally legal for him to have an empty weapon on one side and a loaded mag in his pocket and just pull them both out simultaneously and slap them together if he ever needed to.

quickdraw, some assembly required.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
I believe my dad has an OC permit in CA. He also pointed out to me just the other day that it was totally legal for him to have an empty weapon on one side and a loaded mag in his pocket and just pull them both out simultaneously and slap them together if he ever needed to.

quickdraw, some assembly required.
From what I have read there is no permit required to OC, at least not in most areas in Cali. IANAL so do not quote me on that.

The only problem I have with UOC is that loading the weapon takes time that you are most likely not going to have when you need the protection the most.

While simply putting in the magazine can be done fairly quickly it is the pulling back the slide and chambering a round that takes time and makes noise. If I need to defend myself I want the first noise that is heard by the bad guy is BANG and then he has a hole in him.
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:01 PM   #6
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well if OC is truly supposed to be a deterrent, then your point is moot.

HOWEVER, if people know the law is UOC, they will just move faster than your loading skillz
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:09 PM   #7
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Ive known that you need a permit to carry concealed and loaded, but I've always wondered about legality of open carry. I recall talking to some friends about a year ago and mentioning that open carry would be a much more effective solution against crime than concealed carry. I just never took the time to look it up. As one of the posters in the original thread stated though, I would expect someone to yell "OMG, HE'S GOT A GUN!" the minute I walk into a public area - especially given the area I live in is one of the fastest growing counties in the US. I am definitely someone who would carry a paper copy of the laws specifically allowing UOC in my pocket or holster, so that when I'm forced to use the mall floor as a hasty pillow with 3 rent-a-cops who jumped me and are now using me as knee pads, I can murmer through my bloodied up face "Read the piece of paper in my pocket, you retarded focks."
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:27 PM   #8
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Open carry is legal but how many people do you actually see doing it outside of TX? It's not the old west, not that the old west was ever really the old west in the movies. While legal, it isn't socially accepted. The last thing reasonable people want to do is draw undue attention to themselves, largely negative, when they go the grocery store, shopping mall or go through their daily routine. That leaves the majority of people actually carrying openly as a fringe element. The couple of people I've known that regularly carry open are militant paranoid constitutionalist govt' is out to get us extreme right wackos.

That is why concealed carry is so popular. People want the protection without the stigma and attention open carry would bring them.
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
From what I have read there is no permit required to OC, at least not in most areas in Cali. IANAL so do not quote me on that.

The only problem I have with UOC is that loading the weapon takes time that you are most likely not going to have when you need the protection the most.

While simply putting in the magazine can be done fairly quickly it is the pulling back the slide and chambering a round that takes time and makes noise. If I need to defend myself I want the first noise that is heard by the bad guy is BANG and then he has a hole in him.
I totally agree with your statements. I don't want to have to load a gun and jack one in the chamber when someone has already drawn down on me.

In some states it is legal to open carry loaded. In those same states where only open carry is allowed, they do recognize other states concealed license and you can carry concealed or open. Whenever you go to a new state you will need to check those laws to ensure you are complying appropriately with the law.

I for one have a concealed handgun license. I would just rather be concealed with a loaded gun than to have openly have an unloaded gun at anytime.

(BTW before 911: I was in Montana [Open Carry State] and they sold guns and dynamite in a bar/casino)

Have a nice day...
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:44 PM   #10
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I think I recall you being a member of VADriven, do a search over there (I would get you a link but I refuse to visit the site anymore) a while back there was a HUGE discussion of open carry in your general area (I assume still towards the VA Beach/Norfolk area?) and some of the issues people have had. While it is perfectly legal you need to consider the obstacles you will run into in public (having the police called on you every other block) due to uneducated/moronic everyday people who think the person open-carrying is a threat to them.

I plan to open carry on a regular basis when I return to the states and conceal 99% of the times I'm not open carrying so I wish you luck but don't be surprised by the asshats in your area giving you a hard time and "being scared."

EDIT - Slight side note, but my grandfather always told my mother this "if you pull a gun on someone you better be ready to use it, if you're not they'll use it on you", this is especially true in the home and (unfortunately) with females...that being said, his best advice was to keep a pump shotgun UNLOADED with no ammunition for it in the house (or easily accessible atleast) reason being, racking a shotgun is the most noticeable sound int he world so if a would be burglar enters the house while you're not there, wife picks up the shotgun..and rack's it, then best case the burglar is scarred shitless and runs away shitting his pants, worst case he has a club instead of a loaded shotgun/pistol, may be something to think about for your wife whom you said isn't too security conscious.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:20 PM   #11
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[Iíve spent about 10hours so far and finally think Iíve got most of it down.

Oh ****. I have to read 10 hours of stuff before I post? Damn all these serious threads.

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Old 02-24-2010, 10:10 PM   #12
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I am a conservative redneck from east TN so i love the idea. I think you should, I agree it is a deterrent. I am a bigger fan of loaded open carry though. I am going to make the argument, you would expect from me. Gun laws just effect people that are going to follow the law anyways. If someone is going to go on a shooting spree, or rob someone or shoot someone, chances are the gun isn't legal, and they aren't following any gun laws anyways. So buy a gun, you will be safer. I know i would NEVER consider entering a strangers house in TN because you are legally allowed to shoot a burglar once inside your house or car or outbuilding on your property. Thats one hell of a deterrent. Try to think like a criminal here. Would you hold up a bank, try to rob someone, or enter someones home if you knew they had a loaded firearm on them?
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:47 PM   #13
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No way in hell I am going to read all that stuff before I post <G>. BUT, here is my opinion (like reading some stuff is going to change it anyway).

1) South Carolina (where I live) does not allow open carry and probably never will so it is a moot discussion as far as my personal carry is concerned.
2) I do have a CWP and I am packing 100% of the time when legal.
3) People who open carry are targets for nut bags (harassment, etc).
4) Open carry invites people to say "that guy pulled his gun on me". How do you prove that you didn't. I dyed my blue gun black and sometimes wish that I hadn't since all I ever have to say to someone is "yeah, what color gun did I flash at you?". I have a friend with a white gun - perfect in that case.
5) I DO believe it would cut down on crime but also believe that if 10% of the public wore "I am carrying a weapon right now" t-shirts it would have the same effect.
6) You cannot escape the fact that a lot of people are scared of guns and they will be scared of you. A gang member looking dude carrying a gun would get second glances from me as well and I would probably have my hand in my pocket (ready to draw my CW) as I passed him.
7) Most important to me over anything else I just wrote - I believe it is your right to carry and would not mind if the law got changed here.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:30 PM   #14
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just a random FYI
interesting article in the Times yesterday.

Fearing an Obama Agenda, States Push to Loosen Gun Laws - NYTimes.com
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Old 02-25-2010, 12:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas View Post
I am a conservative redneck from east TN so i love the idea. I think you should, I agree it is a deterrent. I am a bigger fan of loaded open carry though. I am going to make the argument, you would expect from me. Gun laws just effect people that are going to follow the law anyways. If someone is going to go on a shooting spree, or rob someone or shoot someone, chances are the gun isn't legal, and they aren't following any gun laws anyways. So buy a gun, you will be safer. I know i would NEVER consider entering a strangers house in TN because you are legally allowed to shoot a burglar once inside your house or car or outbuilding on your property. Thats one hell of a deterrent. Try to think like a criminal here. Would you hold up a bank, try to rob someone, or enter someones home if you knew they had a loaded firearm on them?
So how are the burglary/robbery statistics in TN? Are they better than the surrounding no-shootum-upon-entrance states? My guess is no.
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Old 02-25-2010, 12:52 AM   #16
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So how are the burglary/robbery statistics in TN? Are they better than the surrounding no-shootum-upon-entrance states? My guess is no.
In the area i am from, i would say yes, even though Im not sure if there is a study to back it up, but most people do own guns where i'm from too.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:21 AM   #17
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Sam: I've wondered about OC often myself and while its completely legal far as I've seen to OC a loaded firearm here, I've had at least a dozen people comment things along the lines of "good luck" and "enjoy jail" yet nobody could tell me WHY. Far as I can see, the Constitution of this fantastic country says I can walk around wearing a pistol on my hip if I damn well feel like it and the state of Kansas doesn't tell me I can't.

UOC on the other hand I don't think would really make a positive difference. The typical distance of a "CCW" shooting is less than six feet? I've read more than one study that someone with a knife can easily attack and stab someone multiple times in right around a second from a six foot gap. To hell with the time it'll take to remove your concealed pistol, how about removing your pistol, magazine, loading it, removing safety if applicable, then presenting or firing it? I'm not the quickest draw in the west but I'd guestimate it takes me at LEAST two seconds to draw the pair, mate the magazine to the pistol AND chamber a round, take the safety off? Maybe I need more practice?

My point is if you open carry an unloaded pistol, if the criminal knows the laws that your weapon can not be loaded while holstered and its pretty obvious there is no magazine in it don't you think that'd make you just as easy a target as an unarmed person? maybe you'd be just another target to them?

Believe me in no way am I giving advice against UOC, I just don't really think the negative impact and / or harassment by LEOs would be worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
just a random FYI
interesting article in the Times yesterday.

Fearing an Obama Agenda, States Push to Loosen Gun Laws - NYTimes.com

Thats a very interesting read, but everytime I hear someone mention the 'assault weapons ban' it makes me want to vomit. I remember the political cartoons drawn for that bill depicting young children on street corners standing in line at a soapbox corner stand buying 'machine guns.'

William Jefferson Clinton signed in the assault weapons ban on Sep 13th 1994. Feb 28th 1997 Larry Phillips, Jr. and Emil Matasareanu walked into a bank in North Hollywood loaded to the hilt, and I strongly believe the two of them never walked in that bank to 'rob it.' To me that entire thing was all about a shootout with the cops, which is what happened using items supposedly ostracized and banned by the Federal Government. In reality all the ban did was take high capacity magazines, pistol gripped shotguns, and other perfectly legit and legal items out of the hands of law abiding citizens...

That bill sure made a difference, didn't it?

Here is another fine example; Cocaine is Illegal right now, sure hard to get also. amirite??

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack.
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Old 02-25-2010, 02:47 AM   #18
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NV checking in, with a slight redneck taste in Reno, weapon laws here are looser than most states, and alot of people do own them... I dont have the statistics, but I say our violent crime rate is pretty low to most since alot of people have a defense weapon, mostly concealed hand-guns.
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:57 AM   #19
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Damn, did ANYBODY read at least the first link? Itís about a 3-4 minute read, and just about every point people have brought up so far is discussed to some degree. Iím not trying to be a dick, but all of my responses to what people have said so far would be to cut/paste snips from that linkÖ itíd be easier just to read it. Iím surrounded by 25-35yr old white male Republicans w/firearms training out here and canít get a good spread of opinion on this subject. This forum is a Sheppardís Pie of demographics. Read the link; tell me what you think after.

I will respond to Foggerís comment though. "OH my god, he's got a gun!!"... serious? An average looking guy in blue-jeans and an Izod with a holstered pistol walks into a Starbucks, and some lady jumps out of her seat, points, screams, and runs out of the place in a desperate panic to escape? Seriously? Most people in public places will assume you're a cop. The few that initially say WTF will calm down in about 5 seconds when it's clear you're not there to commit a crime, and go back to their business. In fact, it seems that off-duty cops who know the law are way more likely to freak out than the public.

As for "rentacop beatdown"... seriously? Security will not approach you aggressively in a mall if you're OC'ing if they approach you at all. If they're concerned, they'll call the police (likely), or politely approach you and open a dialogue. At worst, you'll be asked to leave. They're certainly not going to attack you.
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
Damn, did ANYBODY read at least the first link? It’s about a 3-4 minute read, and just about every point people have brought up so far is discussed to some degree. I’m not trying to be a dick, but all of my responses to what people have said so far would be to cut/paste snips from that link… it’d be easier just to read it. I’m surrounded by 25-35yr old white male Republicans w/firearms training out here and can’t get a good spread of opinion on this subject. This forum is a Sheppard’s Pie of demographics. Read the link; tell me what you think after.

I will respond to Fogger’s comment though. "OH my god, he's got a gun!!"... serious? An average looking guy in blue-jeans and an Izod with a holstered pistol walks into a Starbucks, and some lady jumps out of her seat, points, screams, and runs out of the place in a desperate panic to escape? Seriously? Most people in public places will assume you're a cop. The few that initially say WTF will calm down in about 5 seconds when it's clear you're not there to commit a crime, and go back to their business. In fact, it seems that off-duty cops who know the law are way more likely to freak out than the public.

As for "rentacop beatdown"... seriously? Security will not approach you aggressively in a mall if you're OC'ing if they approach you at all. If they're concerned, they'll call the police (likely), or politely approach you and open a dialogue. At worst, you'll be asked to leave. They're certainly not going to attack you.

Sam, what exactly did you want us to respond with?

I do agree with most of the first link that you posted. I am a VA resident and we have the option of either OC or CC. I personally exercise both options and it depends on the situation I am in to which way that I carry. About 95% of the time when I am carrying my firearm is concealed. This is mostly because that is the type of holster setup I have for my EDC and my BUG.

Most of my time outside of my house is either spent at work or at school. At school I can not carry a firearm in any way shape or form. At work while nothing states that I cannot carry, if I was to open carry I know that I would probably be sent home and more then likely fired. Then company policy would probably be changed so that there is no carry what so ever. This leaves me with only CC while at work if I choose to carry.

When I am in public I generally CC because it provides less of an annoyance for myself. I know the laws and know where I can and cannot carry at. The general public usually does not. I generally am less worried about deterring a criminal by OCing then I am being harassed by the public and/or officers of the law. I do find it unfortunate that that is the way OCers are treated in general.

Here are a few additional links to problems that people who OC face when exercising their rights.

Detained on Las Vegas Strip.
Norfolk man harassed for OC.
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