who's into guns? looking for purchase adviCe :)
 

Looking for a small "pocket gun" type weapon for concealment and personal defense.

Which is the better weapon and why?

Keltec PF9 (parkerized)
Ruger LCP380

They're within $10 of each other, so disregard price.

Thanks

Ruger, all the way. Much better fit and finish. Hell, Bond (James Bond) carried a .380, so it's a manly man's gun.

I agree with a Ruger.
However, I just got a Taurus Millennium Pro .45, and it fits nicely in the pocket. Got great reviews which heavily influenced my decision to look into them, tried one out and immediately liked it. Whenever our turbo blankets get in, I'll let you have a look at mine if you'd like.

i love my kel-tec p3at. used to have a kel-tec p-11 (pre-PF9) too, also a great gun. i was in the same boat as you a few months ago and went with the kel-tec p3at. the p3at has good owner suport on the kel-tec forums, and its a tad smaller and lighter than the LCP. but you can't really compare a 9mm to the .380. for me, the p-11 (just a tad wider than the PF9 your looking at) was JUST too big to carry in your pocket. i used to carry inside the wasteband with the belt clip, its a tiny gun, but not really small enough to be a "pocket gun." but my p3at it just BARLEY bigger than my blackberry and you can carry in your pocket just like a cell phone. also the 9mm is a heavier round, so the gun is even heavier when loaded up. you think just a couple of ounces doesn't matter, but you can really tell when its on you.

I can get a PT140 Millennium Pro .40 for $275, but really it's a much larger weapon than the Ruger and Keltec. Also I prefer black but the PT140 has a stainless slide. I'd still like to see yours, just cuz guns are cool, but I think it's too big.*

There are 3 things I really like about the Keltec. It's black polymer and out of the box it needs a little dremmel work. Needing work is not a good thing, but it would be an excuse to get myself a new rotary tool. My old one is really sucking. Lastly, they have an awesome inside waistband clip. It mounts to your belt, but allows you to keep the weapon tucked right at your waistband inside your pants.

actually, kel-tec will "fluff and buff" the gun for free if you send it to them.

If you are going to get a carry piece, do it right. I personally am an STI man (I competitively shoot a STI Executive) http://www.stiguns.com/ but their carry stuff is probably out of your budget. I like the looks of this http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/ultracarry/ for a resonably priced piece. .45 caliber FTW.

Para Carry, or walther PPS
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...s_id=411535297

too big, too expensive, not looking for another .45

too expensive

11 rounds of .45 in a carry piece FTW. It's very easy to jerk when shooting though. Accuracy is not amazing, but acceptable if you can keep your hand straight. Fits nicely in both pocket and palm. :)

Otherwise, I've always been a big fan of Ruger. Most of their guns are too big for carry, but the quality is good, they always seem to "feel" right and are pretty darn accurate and reliable. 380 is the weaksauce though. I like making BIG holes.

Just to jack his thread.
Who knows the most affordable way to get an M16 M4?

Personally I've been carrying a glock 23 and I'm 5'11 and 150 lbs.

My next one will be a P-11. I don't care for the look or feel of the ruger.

Most affordable way? Steal it. Otherwise, you are looking at $20-25 large nowadays. I remember back in the 80's they were $1,800 new. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Hell, MP-5's are over 10K now.:eek5:

do you want advice? or do you want someone to advise you?

So out of those- the ruger by a long shot. But g would reccomend loking into a sub-compact springfield xd in all honesty.

I'd take the XD Springfield over the Ruger IF I was looking for a small semi-auto. That begs the question, who much experience do you have with handguns and much time are you going to spend each month practicing?? It takes more time to attain and maintain proficiency with a semi auto (even a DAO) than a double action revolver. For the beginning handgunner, a small 5 shot DAO .38 snubby revolver (rated for +P loads) is more foolproof than a semi-auto. No safety to worry about, if it fails to go bang (yeah, it can happen on any gun) you just pull the trigger again and you have a fresh round (much faster than racking the slide to chamber a new round). If you can handle stiff recoil and want more power, you can get a .357 mag snubby in an equally small package.

I have the Taurus PT140 in .40 Cal. It's a great gun and it's SMALL!

I also have a 9mm Springfield XD which I really like, although the Glock has a better trigger the Springfield has been dead reliable out of the box and is smaller than the Glock of similar specs. The Glock with a little trigger work is a sweet ass gun. Don't skimp get a quality weapon. As noted above, the springfield is nicer than the Taurus...

Mark

Buy an AR-10, you'll be happier with a real weapon.

Mark

Great subject, I can't believe I didn't see it sooner. I am very, very, into guns and I take my gun knowledge seriously. As far a self defense...it depends what the situation is and what you want to do to somebody. If you want blow-back stopping power that would cause an ambulance crew to use a defibulator...then .45, if you want someone to fall on the ground bloodied, then 9mm. BTW 9x19 is common 9mm, 9x18 is .380? So in other words a .380 is basically the same as a 9mm. I carry a Glock 19, which is a compact version of a Glock 17, it holds 10 rounds of 9mm. I have a 33 round mag for it that, for instance, can be kept in a glove compartment for when the shit hits that fan. My glock is very acurate, and you can get many upgrades / parts for them, but my gun brand new was almost 600 bucks. They make a compensated model, which is for faster follow up shots. I used to have a 1911 Colt .45 compact. It held 6 rounds of .45, but it was so inacurate, and it was heavy. If you want something light, cheap, and small...I would also recommend the Walther P22. I have one of those, and it has a laser sight on it from factory, it holds 10 rounds, comes with 2 clips, and fires .22 long rounds which are the price of dirt. It is loud too, almost as loud as my Glock. I bet if someone tried to steal your car and you pulled that on them and hit the laser button, they'd be like WTF is that! I'm out! While they ran away if you fired a round, they'd probably run faster than the speed of sound, cause they'd think you had a bigger gun. Kinda goes hand in hand with owning a Miata...beat the big scary V-8 car with the little tiny go cart!

:fawk:

I have a decent amount of time with many types of guns. I used to go to the range monthly with a Sig 45 and S&W 357 revolver, but haven't been lately. If I went with ball&chain, I'd typically rent her a 9mm because she couldn't pull the slide back on the sig.



The Taurus is small, but the ruger and keltec are smaller. I am looking for ease of concealment.

I'd like to have a nice XD, but it's double what the ruger or keltec would cost. I have many projects and limited income.

I keep reading bad things about the P22. I can get one for only $250, but it's a 4 hour car ride.

I never had mine jam, but I can say this...sometimes it misses a reload. Like I mean, I'll fire off like 3 rounds and the slide will close and miss loading the 4th round, or so. Then I have to recock it, but then it's good to go. Otherwise I like it. I was cheap, shoots the cheapest ammo ever, and is loud. Not too bad on accuarcy either.

build one from scratch/spare parts?

I've been seriously looking at that little Ruger. Co-worker just got one for ankle carry and I it looks like a great little package for a back-up gun. Seems to have better fit/finish than Keltec products. Mind you I've never shot either, just handled them.

My usual off-duty carry is a XD40sc. Sometimes the 4" XD45. Both XD's are carried in Milt Sparks holster and a good belt designed to carry a gun. 99% of the time I can conceal easily with a full sized or compact gun.

The Federales will tack about $250,000 and 10 yrs. onto the price of the weapon if you do it that way. :)

Cjernigan, are you looking for an AR variant or a true M-16? If M-16, three round or full?

I have an AR-15. Blue label (match grade), competition model, bought the day they passed that retarded "assault weapon" ban. Still new in the box. I think I paid about $1800 for it way back then. If you have the license, you can get parts to convert it to full or burst auto.

Actually, you can get the parts either way, but if you put them on the rifle, the ATF is likely to make your life hell.

If you are seriously interested, make me an offer.

Just learn to bump fire the thing and it's the next best thing to full auto.

Mark

Ruger LCP is 3-4 wks backordered :mad:

WOW.... As a Canadian I find this thread shocking... I can't even get my pistol permit, never mind carry one. I've had my rifle and shotgun license for years.

we are allowed concealed carry with permit. in my state, the permit entails an application and background check to make sure you are sane and not a felon. oh, and of course, a fee.

no permits needed to own any weapons. only to carry concealed pistols.

OK, I must be some kind of freak. I would highly recommend dumping the tiny semi auto's! Get a light framed 5 shot .38! When it comes to real world self defence, reliable is everything. Off duty cops I know, who carry pocket guns, really like small frame, light, wheel guns in .38 - In the real world if you ever use your weapon it's likely to be from 0 to 8 feet away. You point at center mass and unload. The safety and reliability of revolvers are outstanding. Boring as hell. Not cool at all. But effective.

Gotta have a semi? I'd look for a good used Colt Mustang. My dad carries one. It is a tough little gun. Extremely compact and very well built.

Rifle and shotgun license? WTF? Are you living in Sweden or something? I thought Canada was the great wide open wilderness. Damn. The liberal Frenchies that run your show are messed up! The western provinces sure wouldn't have come up with that.

Of course I think we are way to gun crazy here. It's messed up everywhere.

Got the Keltec PF9 new from a local SM racer who happens to also own a gun shop. Got a good price from a good guy and I'll pick it up from him on Sunday at the track.

Appreciate the advise, but to get the ruger I'd have to prepurchase and wait for the backorder, where with the keltec I'll have it Sunday.

Plus, I really like this

Attachment 212395

Nice.

I want a gun but I think Meg would shoot me. And I live in NJ...

After you've put some rounds through it post a little review. I've played with a few Kel-Tec's, but never been thrilled with the quality, but it can vary from model to model.

Since you take your gun knowledge seriously... I'll work this in a polite and informative way instead of how I'd like to word it.

9x18 is also known as Makarov. The round has signifigantly less power than the 9x19=perebelum=Luger, but slighty more than a .380.

9x18 has such a low muzzle energy that you should NEVER CARRY HP ammo in one, the same for .380. The energy is so low that they only get 3-4" of penetration. 6" is the minimum "required lethal penetration". So, the moral of the story is that if you intend to carry a gun for self defense instead of paper, buy something with more ass than a 9x18 or .380. 9mm is a good round, .40 is better but you have to trade capacity.

I personally don't carry .45s for two reasons.
1) Cost of ammo for practice
2) lack of capacity in smaller frame firearms

#2 is the more concerning one.

I currently do not own a 9x19, but I do own a 9x18 that I bought with the intent to carry. I later found out about the insufficient power, and have dedicated it to target and plinking duty. I also own a glock 23 .40 that I carry and the wife's beretta .22LR Neos.

My next purchase will be a P-11 closely followed by a rock island armory 1911 (despite the cost).

We should start a gun section on the forum...lots of folks on here are into them. I think I own about 12-13 guns now, only one uses CO2.

I love my P22. I also have it outfitted with an HM2 Barrel. (.177 Mach 2)
Never had a problem firing it with 22 ammo though. Great gun.
Here is mine, Its slightly modded.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/drewbroo/SCH7ps...0/DSC_0002.JPG

The P22 is probably the coolest looking piece in the lot, except maybe for the XD. But it's certainly not nearly as small as a PF9 and doesn't have the nifty belt clip.

If you're looking for a pocket gun, why not a j-frame?

A 442 or 642 is the perfect pocket gun.

Try living in merrie olde Englande, carrying a gun here is a BIG no-no.:nono:

Interesting reading this though, I had no idea of the variety of small handguns that you guys in the U.S.A. can buy, and in some cases legitimately carry on your person:eek5:
I get to fire off a few cool guns in my job, but not often I get to try out a handgun/pistol.

let's not forget that it's a .22LR, so carrying it is stupid.

A .22 in the pocket is better than a .45 at the house.

Gotta agree though, carrying a full sized .22 like that is silly when you've got so many larger caliber concealable weapons to choose from.

ben, join over at ktog.org

Will do. I plan to do the recommended cleaning/polishing/deburring. It should come with the newer trigger spring. I'll order the wide trigger overlay when I order the belt clip. I might squeeze some off before the mods, but I'll definitely put a few hundred down range after the mods within a month or so.

I've browsed it, but don't plan on joining the forum. I don't care for the tone and atmosphere. I have joined thefiringline and glocktalk, which both seem to be good sites. There are a lot of guys on tfl and gt that also have pretty high end weapons that daily carry a PF9 or P11.

Check out thehighroad.org also.

I'm pretty sure the Makarov is a standard eastern european police issue weapon. It's not exactly powerful, but I doubt it would have become a reasonable police standard if it didn't "get the job done."

Either way, I'll see soon enough. I heard I'm getting a second hand early birthday present that was probably used by it's last owner to put holes in Ukranian burglars. :)

Makarov or PA-63? I love my PA, just don't know that I can trust it against 2-3 large muscular muggers in downtown houston. My glock has 3 more rounds in the mag and considerably more power (and less recoil oddly enough).

Can't resist commenting on this, trying to own one gun is like trying to stop after eating one potato chip or drinking one beer! BTW, congrats on working for Jesel; everthing Jesel does is first class!

I believe the 9x18 WAS a standard light/CCW handgun weapon in the eastern bloc (thus the big influx of cheap imports in the last 10 years). From a ballistics standpoint, the 9x18 (in a comparable barrel length) is not equal to the .38 Special and even further behind the .38 Special +P (both dropped by hundreds of law enforcement agencies over the last 15 years due to a perceived lack of stopping power). The "old standby" Eastern European handgun cartridge for years was the 7.62 x 25, extremely fast and flat shooting in the Tokarovs and even better in the Czech CZ-52 which can handle much hotter ammo than the Tokarov.

Good info, thanks.

Their a little big for carry anyway, though surprisingly light.

if I'm going to get the firearm out, I don't want the fuckers to live...and that's not some e-thug shit. If I have to use it, I want to be sure I stop them. .45 all the way. I carry a .45 semi.

Fook, I'd love to get one of them but we're not allowed any here in Ireland :crx:
I think it's got something to do with us taking over England if we had them :dunno:
We're only allowed make bombs and stuff. B0llocks :td:

Coming from a non-gun person I gotta say I'm amazed at how many of you carry guns. It makes it seem like everyone in the south and midwest must be packing heat. I guess I'm not totally surprised by Texas. (Not bashing the thread, not an argument I want to get into)

An armed society is a polite society. ;)

I want a 1911 army edition .45.
They are reasonable and BULLET ProoF. They have have been used in the military for decades. I think some branches have switched. But only due to bidding.

I love guns. Going into a gun shop makes me feel like a kid in the Candy Store.

Look at it this way... the more of us that carry the more likely criminals are to not be criminals. If they know their chances of mugging the wrong person are increasing every day MAYBE their dumb ass will consider a career change.

My dad is an avid gun enthusiast, but doesn't carry. I've also known people who are "anti-gun" liberal fuckos, that buy a gun on the street because they have a felony record for DWIs and can't buy one with papers.

As long as your remain cool with our right to carry, we will be cool with your right to not carry :)

Hustler, though totally not the right person to take any turbo related advice from, can teach you a lesson on why it's important that good guys should carry guns too. Maybe if you ask him real polite like, he'll share.

Other interesting support. There is a town in GA called Kennessaw where for many years it was a law that every head of household owned a firearm. There was no crime to speak of there, until recently when the law was eventually repealed. However the crime rate there is still extremely low compared to the average, as all the bad guys know that most households still pack.

Yeah, pistols carried in the Army now are M9s.

Once again, I get destracted from the forum for a few days and miss the bulk of a good thread.

Ben, good luck with the Kel-Tec and keep an eye on the extractor. It tends to be the weakest point on the weapon.

I just picked up not one, but two, Ruger LCPs; one for me, one for the wife. Made the purchase at lunch on Wed and stopped at the range on the way home from work. At 20-yards I was able to get a 7-8 inch grouping sitting about 14-16 inches S-SW (low and left) of center. At 15-yards the drop was within 8 inches. - More than adequate for a pocket gun with a 2.8 inch barrel.

Flip is manageable and after break-in, I figure I should be able to get a reliable double-tap from the weapon. Cor-Bon JHPs will compensate for the smaller round.

My Kimber CDP Pro is my preferred carry option, but summer time in South Texas does lead toward lighter clothing making concealment a touch more difficult. Dropped in the front pocket of a pair of Dockers or Levis, the LCP is essentially invisible.

Cheers!

- L



PS - (Kotomile): The push to the M9s was an attempt to standardize rounds within NATO. However, most SOF units have switched back to the .45s.

Right, I don't hang around very many SF/SO guys (mainly other intel weenies/linguists) but the ones I do talk to make it very clear that the SOF do what they want, how they want. ;)