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Old 02-29-2012, 12:10 AM   #21
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Emillio, I send you money about every two to three months. I give you permission to use that towards crushing the miata time at the ring.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:21 AM   #22
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Emilio, do they run radicals in the states? The sr8 Is a very impressive piece of machinery.

The 6.30 feels impossible for a miata, but it would be awesome if you tried. I can see lower third sevens or thereabouts being possible, and that would be really impressive in itself.

Please try! I'd love to be proven wrong
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:11 AM   #23
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Same car.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:19 PM   #24
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Don't forget the Zonda was on slicks, unlike the Radical, which was road legal.
I think the people arguing over the benefits of a longer wheelbase might be referring to a higher potential for downforce as body length increases. Obviously this only applies if you're using the whole body as a wing.

I still can't envisage a 6.30 Miata. If you made a bold claim for a fast lap on a track that had fewer very-bloody-fast corners (ie, just about any other track…) I'd probably believe it.

I still think the Miata is just not the right shape. I'm coming back to aero again. It has fantastic potential for going pretty quick, but zero potential for going mini-Le-Mans-prototype quick - on road legal tyres, anyway. On slicks…… hmm.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:36 PM   #25
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..I still think the Miata is just not the right shape. I'm coming back to aero again. It has fantastic potential for going pretty quick, but zero potential for going mini-Le-Mans-prototype quick - on road legal tyres, anyway. On slicks…… hmm.
Full 10" Hoosier race slicks, not DOT tires. That's where most of the speed would come from over Ton's car.
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:51 AM   #26
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Car has to be road legal to run during tourist days Emilio. DOT tires won't do either, you need E markings (R888 is more or less the fastest tire available, NT01 and all other full slicks with courtesy treads are DOT only). There are some limitations on aero as well (needs to fit within car contours etc).

What do the fastest miatae do compared to porsche GT3-RSR cup lap times these days. For 6m30s you should be absolutely shattering them. Do you have any vids of this miata running 1min20 flat around laguna seca?
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:21 AM   #27
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back in to days, about plus ten years ago when 8 minute full lap was the goal for street legal cars there was intresting four/five cars in EVO Magazine to brake that time. Caterham R500, Skyline R33 v, Jaguar xj220, Porsche GT3 (996 mk1), cant remember was the then new RS4 5th.

It did show that remerkably different type cars could compete against each other in Nürburgring. R500 that comes.closest to miata, have such low top speed that the others pass it on 4th gear and aerodynamicly it is brick, small brick from 50's but still a brick yet still it was capable to out perform all the fast cars on twisty parts.

Offcourse since Nürburgring has become the place to shine for every maker and petrolhead so bar has rosen alot, but still it shows that it is place where things that might look impossible can be proven wrong.

Last edited by samulis; 03-01-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:51 AM   #28
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http://www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...eife_lap_times
There are some pretty quick cars.
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:58 AM   #29
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So Emilio, how much do you need to get to the "Green Hell"? I'm down for a donation!
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:10 PM   #30
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So Emilio, how much do you need to get to the "Green Hell"? I'm down for a donation!
One visit is never enough, you probably need 4-5 attempts/dates to find conditions (weather) that's ok. This is not SoCal.

I've casually followed the local Loaded project over the years and It's not easy to get the right conditions for a trial at a full lap.
Team up with some racing team and stay for a month or two...

But look at what they did with the "Golf24"
8:28,992 is not too shabby during the 2011 24h (Nordschleife + current GP). Unsure what that is BTG
Just 440PS and 4WD...
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:33 PM   #31
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Car has to be road legal to run during tourist days Emilio. DOT tires won't do either, you need E markings (R888 is more or less the fastest tire available, NT01 and all other full slicks with courtesy treads are DOT only). There are some limitations on aero as well (needs to fit within car contours etc).

What do the fastest miatae do compared to porsche GT3-RSR cup lap times these days. For 6m30s you should be absolutely shattering them. Do you have any vids of this miata running 1min20 flat around laguna seca?
Tire and aero limitations would quash it. Within that structure low 7's for sure but not into the 6's.

Like I said, I'm not saying a 6:30 is 100% possible, just throwing the data out there. Getting way below 8:00 would be easy. Getting to 7:00 flat would take a purpose built and very powerful car. Below 7:00 on E marked tires and limited aero, I don't think possible without huge $$$ and 500+whp.

The slicks I would run would be worth huge chunks of time. Current fastest Miata time I know of on LS was a few years ago, ~1:35 on 225 NT01's with 400whp IIRC. Just swapping to 275 A6's would be 6s or so. 245/580 R80's another 4s or so. Just a tad behind a GT3 cup car.

Tires are really the sticking point. Given those limitations, maybe we should should for simply getting under 7:00?
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:58 PM   #32
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Or you could try and find an event that would allow you to run slicks. This way you would get both BTG and full lenght times.
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:56 PM   #33
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Or you could try and find an event that would allow you to run slicks. This way you would get both BTG and full lenght times.
We have been researching what it would take to run the 24hrs of the ring. Either renting seats or shipping cars over. We have some contacts over there that would make things easier. We have one or two little groups from California that go over every year, rent and drive the ring. I keep missing them for one reason or the other. I'm just not too interested in renting a near stock car for the tourist laps. Fun but I'd rather spend more and go fast
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:18 PM   #34
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Can we get pictures and full specs of the car? I would really like to see that.
Judging from the video intro, it has a stock front bumper with a bunch of ducts and cooling holes and a simple lip spoiler with splitter. GTC-200 wing, sitting at about 5" pinch weld height on 8" wheels with a stock shaped hard top. Is that how it ran the 8:07?

What was Ton's average speed? That's an important bit of data.

Here's another turbo NA street car on the ring. Almost no aero and no hard top, 8:05 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VSkQTjDcF0.


Maybe I need to be like FM and ask my customers to send me money so I can take the OGK to Nurgburging ring for a sub 7:00 BtG.

Since I was the driver (Ton) of the red MX5 (Ringmazda) I can share some information how I got to my challenge of the 8 minute target on the Ring.

I got triggered by the attempt of Jethro Bovingdon of EVO-Magazine / GB to lap the complete Ring (= 20,832km) with an 1995 BMW E36 M3 for a budget under GBP15.000 under 8 minutes, which project was started as I recall in 2006.

The popularity of fast Ringlaptimes has significantly been raised by Sport Auto magazine / Germany who have been measuring the laptime of the car in their Supertest since 1997

http://www.sportauto-online.de/runde...itNS&order=ASC

To clear things about the laptimes. The Ring or Nordschleife is a track of 20,832 km which can be connected to the GP-track.
The combined track is mostly used for longdistance-races while then the pitsboxes of the GP-track can be used.

Sport Auto measures their laptimes on the Ring of 20,832 but leaves out the part where the Ring can be connected to the GP-track (trackpart T13). The distance of this part is then 20,600 km (thus they leave out 232 mtr which is about 6 - 7 seconds compared to the 20,832km)
For this lap the full straight (Döttinger Höhe) is used.

When the track can be used for Touristenfahrt (trackdriving for streetlegal cars, motorcycles, autobus and so on) the straight is not used because there is the place you get on and off the track, after buying your lapticket.
Since you cannot use the straight it is only possible to take your laptime once you get on the track and you go under a Bridge (timingstartingpoint) and come back on the straight and pass under a Gantry (timingendpoint) hence the name BtG = Bridge to Gantry.
Then you don't drive the straight (about 1715 mtr) but do take in your timemeasurement the T13 = 232mtr part.

So the Sport Auto times are measured over 20,6 km and the BtG times over 19,1 km.

To calculate the time of a 20,6 lap one has to add around 22 to 24 seconds on the BtG laptime (depending on the speed which can be reached on the straight)
So a BtG 8.00 is 20,6 / 8.23

The BMW E36 M3 of Bovingdon finally never reached their target. In the end there has been spend around GBP30.000 on the car and their best racedriver reach around 20,6 / 8.10

My challenge was to do a 20,6 / sub8.00 which would be comparable to the Sport Auto Supertest, which means that the car has to be roadlegal (as is European approaved tyres (E-mark), minimal rideheight of 10 cm (4 inch))
Since I was fully aware that this was a tough challenge I decided to split my challenge in two stages. First I would try to beat the BtG 8.00 for a limited carbudget and when that was achieved I would raise the carbudget and attempt for the 20,6 / 8.00

I bought a 1994 MX5 in 2008 and planned to spend around €8000 on the car (including the buyingprice)
In october 2009 I finally reached BtG 8.01 and spend €8500 on the car.
It was a struggle to reach this time due to the traffick delays. According Damir 130 who analised my laplogging my theoretical bestlap was BtG 7.53.

As the blue MX5 of Dale Lomas shows in his video trackexperience and talent helps quit a bit. His car has around 35 HP less than my car and a bit more aerodrag does a BtG 8.05 but when you substract the timeloss due to traffic his best time would have been a BtG 7.57 without traffic.
But since Dale is a driving instructor on the Ring and lives almost next to the Ring he has more then 5000 laps experience in all kinds of fast cars and bike.
My experience is about 350 laps since 1970 in mostly slow cars. Advantage that the Ring is always new to me, never a dull moment.

In 2010 I started with upgrading my MX5 for stage two (20,6 / 8.00) (bit more horsepower, aero (splitter and wing) and AST 3 way adjustable suspension, frontbrakes). That year I only drove one lap on the Ring. In 2011 I did 5 laps to test the suspension and aero and that was when the video was taken. Lack of drivingtime in 2010 and 2011 and some problems with the brakes gave a fastest lap of only BtG 8.05. The one on the video was 2 seconds slower..

Now for the 6.30. of Emilio. I understand that he means BtG 6.30 which is a 20,6 / 6.52, is it possible ???? Well in my believe almost anything is possible but not always easy.

With streetlegal limitations (no Hoosiers) and no budgetlimitations it will be tough, but not imposibble

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

Can you do it with the OGK on (european) streetlegal tyres ???? I doubt it but it is certainly an interesting challenge.
I think the calculation of Emilio is a bit optimistic, but only eating is proof of the pudding, so bring it on. Cost of transport is not that high that that should be a problem for a company that is so busy with racing
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:43 AM   #35
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Thanks for all the background Ton. The obstacles make the lap that much more impressive. The original OGK and Rental were similarly built with certain constraints with a target lap time in mind on local tracks. Building a car with a huge budget isn't always as much fun as working within a tight framework while still trying to milk big buck speed out of it.

I will get over there. In what mode, I do not know yet. I'll need help from locals like your crew and our new European importer S&R GmbH.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:51 AM   #36
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Thanks for all the background Ton. The obstacles make the lap that much more impressive. The original OGK and Rental were similarly built with certain constraints with a target lap time in mind on local tracks. Building a car with a huge budget isn't always as much fun as working within a tight framework while still trying to milk big buck speed out of it.

I will get over there. In what mode, I do not know yet. I'll need help from locals like your crew and our new European importer S&R GmbH.
For me indeed the challenge and fun is to be as quick as the "real" sportscars for significantly less money.
The 1994 €8500 MX5 is now about as quick as i.e. a Lotus Exige S 2008 or a Porsche Boxter S 2006.

In the area of the Ring are several workshops who can assist you. I don't actually have a crew to assist, I almost always go there on my own.
If you come over I can of course assist you.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:16 PM   #37
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Thanks Ton, that was very interesting to read and learn.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:16 AM   #38
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Hi guys... one of my own site's members pointed me back this way. I thought I'd add some details about my car (the smokey blue MX5 with silver stripes) and give you my opinion on the 6m30s MX5 BtG lap....

Anyway... lots of things could have been done a million times better with my car;

• Tyres were Toyo R888 semi-slicks, BUT made in 2006(!) and tracked so many times there was barely any tread left on them.

• Power was unmeasured, but I would be surprised if I had more than 180 at the back wheels with the 11psi I used to run. Chinese torbocharger and megasquirt

• No hard top; this cripples acceleration over 100mph and a LOT of the Nordschleife is over 100mph...

• Only aero was a Garage Vary splitter, helped a lot though.

• Brakes, 1.8 NA caliper bracket and discs was my only big mod. Pads are only EBC Yellow Stuff!

• In that video not only did I have to dodge a fair amount of traffic, but there was also some roadworks too.

SO... my videovbox shows me that THEORETICALLY I can lap BTG in about 7m54s on a 'perfect' run.

AND... I've basically admitted my MX5 was a DIY shitbox running on the worst tyres and brakes.

But you guys are looking at another 90 SECONDS off that time. And we are WELL inside the realms of diminishing returns. I took my MX5 (and my own driving) from 10 minutes to under 8 over five years... Bikes were a lot easier for me... GSX-R1000 was 7m35s after a month of ownership, but I digress...

WHY do I STILL think 6m30s is not achievable in an MX5?

• At those laptimes average speed is waaaay over 100mph. All the advantages of lightweight and acceleration become secondary to torque up the hills (1000ft up and 1000ft down each lap) and power down the long straights combined with REAL downforce at 100mph.

• The fastest cars that aren't single-seaters or formulas are NOT modified GTRs or Evos. They are pure-bred GT racing cars; factory Porsche GT3R 911s, Corvettes and even the customer-prepped Vipers. The fastest street-shaped race car I know of around here is a factory Porsche GT3RS shell with custom aeros, 4WD and two turbos...

•-The fastest BTG time is about being street legal (BTG is what you measure when you CAN'T go racing). Just saying...

• The quickest overall laptime of the Nordschleife that I know of (excepting Bellof's Group C Porsche!) would be nailing a BTG of about 6m20s in a Zonda R or Ferrari 599XX. The Zonda driver was another local expert, the 599 pilot less so.

These cars don't just have a great power to weight ratio (which is do-able for the MX5), but developed integral aeros (all we can do is bolt ons) and HUGE power... Power to weight gets you up to 100mph... but over that it's about power versus drag and the above cars can make double the horsepower we have whilst making downforce and NO EXTRA drag. All of our downforce mods would brickwall the top speed.

Anyway, that's enough for now.

Just to make it clear, I live here, work here and developed my MX5 from scratch and have even raced here a few times as well as test driving and taxi driving etc...

Oh... and my day job is here at Rent4Ring and we just finished building an NC MX5 hire car. So you can arrive and drive here in the public sessions. Öhlins suspension, 4-2-1 exhaust, full cage, hardtop, 16x8s and Toyo R888s...
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:40 AM   #39
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Oh... and my day job is here at Rent4Ring and we just finished building an NC MX5 hire car. So you can arrive and drive here in the public sessions. Öhlins suspension, 4-2-1 exhaust, full cage, hardtop, 16x8s and Toyo R888s...
It will be interesting in the NC will do better job than the Swifts, especially in the long term cost, but also in the popularity (the Swifts have been real popular and triggered several bets about the fastest driver with low power).
Adding a massaged 2.5L MZR would be even more fun
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:07 AM   #40
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id sure like to see you guys try.. a much more powerful miata like mine, would sure be a lot faster than mrbtg's car but i would not bet much money that even mine would be able to go as fast as into the 6minute's laptimes. my car has lots of power. 170ish mph topspeed, aero mods, big brakes, and 225 r888's(roadlegal here and in germany).. it would wery easily be a lot faster than my 8 min something diesel 3series, but how much faster? at a certain point it also becomes a matter of having ***** big enough to attack a twisty downhill at speeds closing in on 160+ mph, in a miata.
Also speed uphill in it would easily compare / surpass most porsches etc. hell even my diesel bmw has a higher speed up from bergwerk than the blue mx5 in the video. so i am guessing it would be very doable(easy) to get somewhere mid 7 minutes in a mx5 as fast as this. but not sure if i have the ***** to actually get there myself..
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