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Old 02-01-2011, 03:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
Honestly, pushing hard through t6 doesn't make a big difference. I never once went flat out through there. Why? Because there's a tight turn followed immediately by another. T5 and t4. Most important corners are the ones leading directly to the longest straights.
Nope. Most important corners are the ones that every goes too slow into. Lap times are not exit speed, they are entry speed.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:42 AM   #22
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I think I want to drive MSR Houston really, really badly after seeing that track map.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:58 AM   #23
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Come lay down a time. I'm sure we can get you in on a members day.

Times are in.

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=624303


1 17 Joe Woodhead 1:38.090 1:43.691 1:42.778 1:40.736 1:38.090
2 2 Troy Talamantez 1:40.541 1:44.187 1:42.489 1:40.541
3 71 Chuck Cole 1:41.681 1:44.836 1:44.932 1:41.681 1:44.892
4 111 ken orgeron 1:44.049 1:44.049 1:44.807 1:44.677 1:48.314
5 41 Tim Ray 1:44.347 1:44.954 1:45.681 1:44.347 1:45.706
6 50 Bryan Harrison 1:44.502 1:48.496 1:44.502 1:44.594 1:45.067
7 13 Bradley Bollinger 1:44.562 2:00.860 1:49.289 1:44.562 1:45.182
8 405 Josh Hilts 1:45.399 1:46.769 1:45.399 1:45.755 1:45.778
9 76ss Kelly Kitchens 1:45.577 1:52.511 1:48.308 1:45.577 1:45.739
10 10 Kevin Bourque 1:46.400 1:46.400
11 440 Joshua Smith 1:46.598 1:48.220 1:46.598 1:47.774
12 0 Rich Soule 1:47.150 1:47.150
13 06 David Armstrong 1:47.533 1:47.533 1:48.916 1:49.647
14 7 Jose Bossolo 1:47.696 2:00.859 1:50.287 1:49.104 1:47.696
15 253 John D'Andrea 1:48.802 1:52.120 1:48.802 1:50.773 1:49.121
16 26 jose carreras 1:48.958 2:07.243 1:57.129 1:50.468 1:48.958
17 01 Allan Page 1:49.050 1:49.050
18 193 Terry Fair 1:49.999 1:58.907 1:51.199 1:50.503 1:49.999
19 735 Carter J White 1:50.712 1:51.643 1:52.151 1:50.712
20 07 Mitch Kramer 1:51.017 1:54.811 1:52.667 1:51.017
21 11 Kong Chang 1:51.075 2:06.904 1:56.763 1:51.987 1:51.075
22 723 Trey Rozelle 1:51.391 1:59.373 1:52.759 1:51.391
23 357 Jim Freker 1:52.434 1:55.300 1:53.746 1:52.434
24 361 Jacob Groves 1:52.658 1:57.828 2:01.868 1:52.658
25 86 joshua garcia 1:54.354 2:03.853 1:56.115 1:54.354 1:55.052
26 38 Josh Price 1:54.554 2:05.244 1:57.641 1:54.554
27 23 Jerry Paladino 1:59.294 2:13.490 2:03.085 1:59.294 2:00.312
28 25 Kevin Webb 1:59.341 1:59.341
29 07 William Groves 2:04.532 2:04.532
30 15 Xavier Anderson 2:06.757 2:12.843 2:06.757
31 420 Bert Withers Jr. --:--:--.---
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:35 AM   #24
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Looks like the first 2 guys got magic lap times.

And yes, what Sav said. The course looks fun. Too bad it's out there in...you know...TX.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:33 AM   #25
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looks like a fun time. Hope to join you guys next year.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Nope. Most important corners are the ones that every goes too slow into. Lap times are not exit speed, they are entry speed.
I think they are quite a few people that would disagree with you there, take for instance, Skip Barber. His experience is that most beginners gain the most time from exit speed, then mid-corner, then entry and finally by braking distance optimization.

Another person that might disagree with you is whoever came up with the addage "slow in-fast out".

From all the data I've looked at from SCCA national champions and Grand-Am races exit speed seems to be king.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoolin2bars View Post
Honestly, pushing hard through t6 doesn't make a big difference. I never once went flat out through there. Why? Because there's a tight turn followed immediately by another. T5 and t4. Most important corners are the ones leading directly to the longest straights.
If I didn't lift, I'd come out of Diamond's edge with several car length closer to the Exige.

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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I think I want to drive MSR Houston really, really badly after seeing that track map.
It's fun, this track is bad *** in CW direction, each corner has character (after running ECR you appreciate that). I need to get my head right and go back out there. I'm really jealous of the ability of veterans like you guys to go to a track the first time and get a good read, and throw down a time. TT is pretty competitive here, if a new is tailing the veterans they'll drive a bogus line to keep the secrets; I wasted a few laps trying to get my bearings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I think they are quite a few people that would disagree with you there, take for instance, Skip Barber. His experience is that most beginners gain the most time from exit speed, then mid-corner, then entry and finally by braking distance optimization.

Another person that might disagree with you is whoever came up with the addage "slow in-fast out".

From all the data I've looked at from SCCA national champions and Grand-Am races exit speed seems to be king.
you can pick whichever part of the corner you want...if someone is doing any of the 3 faster than you, then the one you're deficient on is the most important.
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Nope. Most important corners are the ones that every goes too slow into. Lap times are not exit speed, they are entry speed.
I agree. I think it's a lot easier to exit fast than enter fast. I need to enter faster and stop checking up on brakes. My 3 brake failures and a season of gross knock-back are still stuck in my head. I'm still checking-up on the brake pedal on every large straight. I've been caught by 2 sand traps during brake failure, it haunts me a bit.

We're going to have a battle when we run HHR, TWS, and Hallett. That's when the SM records will get some gap, I think we were all too green on this track in this direction. I plan to run 8-seconds under SM on my next trip to Hallett...and whip the **** out of the TT class.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:40 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I think they are quite a few people that would disagree with you there, take for instance, Skip Barber. His experience is that most beginners gain the most time from exit speed, then mid-corner, then entry and finally by braking distance optimization.

Another person that might disagree with you is whoever came up with the addage "slow in-fast out".

From all the data I've looked at from SCCA national champions and Grand-Am races exit speed seems to be king.
Think about how much faster you can brake than accelerate. I think all areas need to be honed well, but this is really the most important due to possible speed variances. "Slow in fast out" is a good saying, but there is such a thing as too slow, which is what was happening here. The end result speed may be the same coming into the corner, but you will just be using more braking.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:45 AM   #29
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Think about how much faster you can brake than accelerate. I think all areas need to be honed well, but this is really the most important due to possible speed variances. "Slow in fast out" is a good saying, but there is such a thing as too slow, which is what was happening here. The end result speed may be the same coming into the corner, but you will just be using more braking.
My new mantra is "trail brake in, fast out". Now that the brake pedal works I have to teach myself to trail brake again. You can ask my flatspotted inside rear tire about that.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I think I want to drive MSR Houston really, really badly after seeing that track map.

I've run MSR twice for lemons and its a blast. I think what I like about it is you feel fast on the first few laps, but then as you learn more and find time you just get faster. I really want to take the miata out there for a track day soon.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
you can pick whichever part of the corner you want...if someone is doing any of the 3 faster than you, then the one you're deficient on is the most important.

I agree. I think it's a lot easier to exit fast than enter fast.
I agree with you, obviously whichever part of the corner you're doing most wrong is what you want to concentrate on. Not so much that you end up blowing you're exit speed because you tried to enter the corner 2mph faster.

I only posted because I didn't agree with Emilio's "Lap times are not exit speed, they are entry speed" comment. Sure if everyone has the same exit speed then that is true, most of the time that's not the case and it's been proven that every extra rev you can carry out of a corner is worth more than the same incremental increase in entry speed or braking speed.

Obviously there is such thing as too slow in corner entry speed. Obviously the car can decelerate faster than accelerate. What I'm trying to get across is that if you have two comparable driver's in identical cars, the only difference being one driver's braking distance is 10 feet shorter and his entry speed is 2mph faster and the other driver's entry speed is 2mph slower but his exit speed is 2mph faster the driver with the higher exit speed most likely has the lower lap time.

None of this may apply to Hustler at this track because maybe he was going 8-10mph too slow into a certain corner. But when you are talking about top level SM, the Runoffs or Grand AM then it's more applicable.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:37 PM   #32
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Trey needs to drive faster.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:07 PM   #33
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Trey needs to drive faster.
An instructor should offer to drive his car, show him a thing or two.


Don't ban me dood.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:16 PM   #34
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Any chance that the suspension was too well set up for left cornering at the cost of right cornering? Sounds Like you were eating guys up in the left turns (keyhole group / carousel) but maybe not quite perfect on the right turns (turn 6 was scary, sugar and spice tore you apart)
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:10 PM   #35
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Any chance that the suspension was too well set up for left cornering at the cost of right cornering? Sounds Like you were eating guys up in the left turns (keyhole group / carousel) but maybe not quite perfect on the right turns (turn 6 was scary, sugar and spice tore you apart)
I'm 200lb heavy on the front left. I was having a tough time in sugar & spice particularly. I wish I could have ridden with a hot-shoe but that wasn't an option. Winning at HPDE and winning in TT are two different things. I'm stepping into the ring of people who know what they're doing, TXMC is getting faster with every event.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I think they are quite a few people that would disagree with you there, take for instance, Skip Barber. His experience is that most beginners gain the most time from exit speed, then mid-corner, then entry and finally by braking distance optimization.

Another person that might disagree with you is whoever came up with the addage "slow in-fast out".

From all the data I've looked at from SCCA national champions and Grand-Am races exit speed seems to be king.
Exactly

None of us are beginners so that does not apply. If you haven't figured out how to exit a turn and use all the track yet, I'd suggest a good driving school. Like Skippy perhaps.

I can easily obtain maximum exit speed on a 7/10ths out lap while texting someone. Any halfway decent intermediate level driver can do it too.

Threshold braking and having all four tires generating a 2-3 slip angle at turn in OTOH, is something that is quite a bit more difficult. That is the last frontier and what separates the merely good from the best.

Too many intermediates, and a lot of advanced drivers quote the tired "Slow in-fast out" adage. Live by it to the point of avoiding early apexes like the pox. Doesn't make it any more true.

Pretty sure your average Skippy instructor will beat by the greatest margins on corner entries, not corner exits.

You have it backwards. The turns with long straights after are more likely to require a lower minimum entry speed before apex than a turn with no following.

So to the point at hand. Going into a fast turn at 8/10ths because there is no straight afterwards is, where I pass you.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:08 PM   #37
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Exactly
Too many intermediates, and a lot of advanced drivers quote the tired "Slow in-fast out" adage. Live by it to the point of avoiding early apexes like the pox. Doesn't make it any more true.
I had that revelation again this weekend. I thought I was losing time by getting sloppy and overdriving. The reality was that I needed harder, more extreme trail braking, on the limit, maybe even a few trips through the gravel.


I'm not sure what to do with #18 entry. The SM's are hauling *** by entering mid-track, the TT power hitters are entering on the inside curbing...both track out and hit 18 the same way. I'm a little confused, I wish this occured to me during the last session and tried a few different things to see what worked. I still want to see my anger/drift vids from the last session.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:42 PM   #38
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This project blog gets me wanting to do more lapping and less drifting.


Im not sure which one is more expensive haha.
Props dude!
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:33 PM   #39
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maybe even a few trips through the gravel.
You shouldn't have to go four off (if that's what you're getting at) to find the limit / best way through a turn.

Emilio - obviously the fastest of the fast driver's go 10/10ths everywhere on the track all the time. I've shared cars with Michael Galati (best driver I can directly compare my data to) and shared the track with him in similar cars. The guy is flat out from the second he leaves the pit box. Through traffic he's 10/10ths, warm up laps he's 10/10ths, 1.5 hours into a driving stint with a broken car suffering from CO2 poisining in the pouring rain and he's 10/10ths. When looking at his data he's gaining most of the time on me in corner entry and braking. There's no denying that the last 0.5s of lap time to be had are found in those two areas, but the first 2s are from corner exit speed.

I haven't met Hustler so maybe I'm assuming too much but I don't think he's quite to that level yet. All I've been trying to say is that in his situation (trying to learn a new track) he should be more concerned about learning the line and then nailing the exit speeds, then the mid-corner speeds, then entry-speeds, and then finally worrying about reducing his braking distances. I don't think he should be going out one of the first few days he's (or anyone for that matter) at a track and trying to go into every corner at the absolute max corner-entry speed. Your addage of "Lap times are not exit speed, they are entry speed" might make some noob (in no way am I suggesting the Huslter is a noob) concentrate too much on entry speed when he or she is completely blowing every other aspect of going round a corner.
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:02 PM   #40
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I haven't met Hustler so maybe I'm assuming too much but I don't think he's quite to that level yet. All I've been trying to say is that in his situation (trying to learn a new track) he should be more concerned about learning the line and then nailing the exit speeds, then the mid-corner speeds, then entry-speeds, and then finally worrying about reducing his braking distances. I don't think he should be going out one of the first few days he's (or anyone for that matter) at a track and trying to go into every corner at the absolute max corner-entry speed.
I'm "at that level". I have no problem finding the logical line and hitting max exit speed; it's the trail braking and overcoming the desire to lift in a corner at redline in 5th which are a couple examples of the challenges. How hard is it to point the car at "track out" and apply throttle? Corner entry is for the money.

At the 3rd and 4th session of the day, I was looking for max entry speed on every corner; I wouldn't be that aggressive if I weren't comfortable doing so and if I weren't locked up on the exit. This is my 4th year of playing with track cars, over 100-hours...if I'm not throwing down a lap on my first day at a new track something is wrong.

I'm not proud of my time, but I'm also not embarrassed. I'll hang my head a little higher at a track I've seen before. All those times that stomped me in TT, most have run that track before or own a membership, all of them showed-up for Friday practice.
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