10AE exploring FI possiblites
 

Hello all glad to be apart of the forums. Im on my search of which FI application i want to venture into. I currently picked up my 10ae last year in april and left it stock for a year while I drove the car on its stock limits. Pretty fun i do say but a little lack luster in the go pedal department. But that might be because my first car was a 3kgt vr4 and this is my second car :laugh: So ive recently swaped in the tubular header from the 01+ models and it made a pleasant change in power delivery but still wanting a bit more. So this is why i am here. To seek infomation about turbo kits while im still in search of a forum oriented toward supercharges as well. although miata.net is quite nice with that info.

my car ;)
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Now for the reason for my visit to the forms is how to make a turbo kit spool early and deliver about the same torque curve one would get in a supercharger? Secondly is once my kit is done and built and all thats left is tunning is it possible to just have ecu premades in place to switch to and from DD characteristic to track time on the fly?

I know one should go in pre fabbed kits and the other in ecu but dont want to get flamed for having a low post count lol.

Because im currently try to figure out what i want. Id love to have a turbo if can get it to have an even torque curve as possible for drivabilty sake in town. I drove along with my friends turbo 1.6 l and it annoyed the hell out of me how it didnt make power till 3800-4k rpm and then just exploded with speed. Its a cool feeling non the less but not something im looking for unless im at road america or something lol. Around here is the drive way austin and haris hill which are nice technical tracks, and i spend ALOT of time through twisty roads. So far everything points to supercharger but i dont want constant drag on the engine to make power. Although it looks to be of a more install and leave it type of setup. Which probably can be done with a turbo if you dont cut corners :)

I was wondering around and stumbled into the spool sticky thread and saw alot of turbos that didnt get full spool untill 3500 + did see a few making 1-2 psi at 1500 rpm which was cool but they rocket to 14psi which is kinda what im avoiding unless i can do the preset thing for times when im just on the high way or around town.

My other reason for going turbo is because Id like to have those flat out moments of fun in straight line. Which probally can be done wit tuning and give or take 15-18 psi. I mean doesnt take much for these things to take off. Where a super charger unfortunately seems to me kinda of has one setting unless you change betls and ratios which isnt something thats done on the fly. Which it seems like a turbo can manage with on the fly tuning of 8psi - 14 psi or am i just delusional?

Read the NewB and DIY stickies.

LOL at going from a VR4 to an MX5

Your friends 1.6 may be running a turbo that is too big for the application. Although most of us dont spool at 1500 rpms, it's important to note that with a properly sized turbo, you'll rarely be under the boost threshold.

Daily driving a turbo car is actually quite easy/effortless after you drive it for a day or two to get used to it.

Be careful with your boost levels. Hitting 15-18psi sounds like fun (and it is, indeed VERY fun) but its going to cost a few very shiny pennies to make an engine that can handle it. Even if you're only using it "every now and then", something is going to die faster than you want it to. Again, read the NewB stickies.

With an electronic boost controller, or an electronic switching solenoid, it is indeed possible to switch between boost levels.

yeah im not sure why i picked a miata but i havent looked back lol.

If i was going turbo i would most likely pick up the s4 kit from begi to start with and get the smaller turbo option. But i was aiming for a torque curve That could be flat as possible that way throttle input can be as predictable as possible. I dont mind cost ,im saving up for it anyways as long as its reliable as can be.

the flattest torque curves come from the smallest turbochargers, the problem is that the smallest turbochargers run out of steam at the top end of the RPM range. The garrett GT2560R is known to have an excellent power band with the 1.8L engine, while still being able to kick up at a relatively low RPM.

You still haven't followed the instructions in the NewB stickies. If you had, we might be able to tell what part of the world you live in, and someone might offer you a ride in a properly setup turbo miata. You might quickly change your mind on how 'unflat' the torque curve is for a properly setup system.

whoops i thought it should under my name that im from austin texas. Im only an hours drive away from bell engineering. So that would be my turbo and soon to be supercharger out let.

What im looking for is a nice flat torque curve while driving around town for predictability.By die off meaning like boost cap? or the turbine just spins out of efficiency? Im not really aiming for high horse power since my ball park is about 190-250hp scale

By "run out" I mean that the turbocharger simply may not flow enough volume of air to maintain a high boost level during high RPMs.

190hp is easily attainable, cheap, and reliable. A GT2554R should spool 190hp without blinking while being lightning fast.

230-250 hp is the beginning of a very very slippery slope.

welcome

can't go wrong with an s4 for a starter kit, but its very addicting.
Before you know it you'll be looking at 2871's or 3071's

The S4 kit you mentioned with the GT2560R and a nice free flowing exhaust, will spool plenty quick, and should still be in it's efficiency range at your desired goals. And as your goals evolve, a larger turbo, injectors, and a tune will quickly bring you into the realm of built motors.

Or you can go with 949's rotex SC, it seems to be getting good reviews from the track crowd.

The rotorex is fantastic.
The price is not.

By lighting quick as in full boost by 3k?

I did see that rotrex and i cant see the 3.2k price tag with only 165whp. At least the fast forward is a guaranteed 190whp at that range. But once the super charger is installed theres no adjustment unless your in a garage :vash:

Overall im trying to get a nice broad range of levels of hp within one kit really. to avoid having to bring my car under the knife for a given situation. Plus im going to stay away from built engine horse power or i might as well do a v8 swap lol. But i have a sinking feeling if i setup the turbo the way i want ill be a few grand shy of a lsx miata and that will make me cry lol

Are they really that far off?

The begi S4 kit is $3680 with no injectors or engine management.

The DIY Rotex is $2895, you would still need injectors, DIY intercooler, and engine management.

Am I missing anything?

2554 will easily hit full boost by 3.

rotrex can be "unrestricted" and made to put out way more than 165.
The FFS Doesn't have as much power increase potential.

A small turbo setup will put down more power and torque than both.

That 165hp is their base kit running stock injectors and a power card

Do the DIY set up mentioned above, with the 30-70 and 300hp is possible.

Look up Track day hokey's set up.

300 without built motor and alternate fuel = no bueno

Since this will be my first install of forced induction i was going with the kit cost of 3.2k. Granted I did do header work on my vr4 and had to mess with the twins and reinstall a missing intercooler but not putting in an entire kit so i would love to have something planned out for my first rodeo.

But since its driven by belt and a certain gear ratio wouldnt i still have to put the car under garage to get varing performance levels or would a boost conrtoller do the trick? 300hp is a bit more than i want to spring for since that brings cost levels waaaaaay to high:crx:

This is why im more partial to turbos at the moment.

True that.

It seems that the turbo kit, is the ticket for the OP.

that could very well be the case if there is a way to dial down the sling shot effect that you get in a turbo and turn up the bigger motor feel that people say of a super charger then im sold to turbo lol

For the power you want to make, a 2554, 2.5" exh and a boost controller should do exactly what you want.

I had the same setup (IHI equivalent journal turbo) on another car and it would make 1psi in neutral. Full boost (14psi) was availiable by 2700-2800rpm and starting at 1700rpm. I had a tough time not being at .5 psi on the highway while cruising.

A properly setup 2560 should meet your goals as well. I'm running a 2560 now and have the same "flat torque" goal.

Ok so i take the 2560 series for the s4 kit with begi. If I install a standalone and EBC i should theoretically be able to have "pre-maps" in place where i could switch between DD characteristics with a flat curve from 2200 to a race characteristics where ill want torque and power shifted toward the upper rpms correct? Or will that hurt the engine running different maps for boost, timing , and afr ?

You won't be able to affect the turbo or camshaft's characteristics with the ECU, I'm afraid. You can, using an EBC, switch between two maximum boost pressure settings. I thought about this a lot and I'm glad someone told me to just set the boost controller to whatever I consider the "high" setting and just leave it there. You'll have plenty of control over the boost with your right foot. ;)

It sounds like you want a low-mid size turbo (2560 probably) or a Rotrex.

Exactly! Dual maps aren't really advantageous on a street vehicle, but I use an mbc.

I drive at 14psi on my 2560 and if I had an exh bigger than 2" I would have much faster spool. All it means is slowly releasing the throttle as you go up in revs to maintain linear acceleration. That will become as second nature as shifting gears gets.

Even my mom can drive my car linearly and she was used to driving a 5sp v8 Explorer.

I'd like to try out a Rotrex too but the 2560 is a good compromise as far as turbos go.

Then how exactly would one shift the torque curve? with camshaft position i suppose? but thats adjustable cams with two or three bolts I guess.

I wouldnt imagine going anything less than 3" exhaust lol. faster spool is faster spool! But i guess they can get pricey(or your to slammed to fit lol)

I now the 2560 could put around between 190-250 right with being underwhelmed lol.

Right, with cam position and/or grind, and the turbo itself (though how the turbo relates to your torque curve is more a spool aspect).

Go with a 3", definitely. I run the Enthuza (stainless) and I'm on the low side for around here. You'll drag it across a speed bump from time to time but it's a sturdy exhaust.

I don't really understand your last statement and/or question.

Hey, your the guy I was talking to on m.net. He asked the Tom humpers in the supercharger section what kit he should get lol. When are you gonna holler at BEGI and go over there? Also, your always welcome to make the trip down here and drive my car. Actually, I might be up around San Marcos at some point. Anyways, living in TX and having a turbo miata is pretty much the best thing you can accomplish with your life. I assure you, a 2560 won't make you want for more in traffic.

My statement was more of checking the efficiency range of the 2560 mot likely 190-250whp. Where its not spinning to slow or to fast in efficiency.

Yep thats me. I might have some spare time to call this weekend but not really sure when i can go out there. But i got a pretty flexible work schedule Id probably want to see them in the middle of the week. Ill have to snoop around the locals here and see what people have to get a more solid foundation of what i want.

Wait wait wait..

You'd have to be going seriously fast for you to 'cruise' at a positive manifold pressure.

I believe it on such a small turbo.

I was cruising in the SRT4 at 5 psi @ 65mph... but I was towing.

With constraint i can usually keep to about -10 while cruising at 65-70. But as soon as i tip the right pedal it is boost. If i stomp it in 5th at 65 i usually get about 9-10 psi and illegal velocities.

At 120kph or ~3750rpm it would do .1 to .5 psi at <10% throttle. 9.5 CR, head work, IM, big exhaust (relative to the turbo) and a dime, maybe nickel sized wastegate made for lots of creep and a VERY revvy bp. Too bad it was fwd.

Kotomile:

Towing with a neon (turbo or not)? Really? I get harassed for towing with my xcab B3000 because "it can't handle a load safely".

if you want a turbo that spools quick took a look out there for old dsm turbos. I had a 13g turbo (first generation automatic dsm turbo) and it could hit 10lbs of boost by 3000rpms. As far as the ecu thing goes, a lot of guys go with megasquirt around here. Thats what im running. And like stated before if you keep your foot out of the gas the car will kinda like a non turbod car lol.

With it in that small amounts of boost does that kill gas mileage or no? I figured with the standalones it would already lean out the mixture.

On my old car I got 33mpg in town and 30-35mpg highway but it typically was the same mpg or worse than city when on the highway. That was with an MBC set to 15psi.

My miata gets 30-33mpg (with a 6sp and 4.1 rear) and as high at 36mpg on a long highway trip with a bigger turbo (than the above described car), stock engine and exh.

Porting the WG and having ebc that leaves boost at WG level unless you get on it help with unwanted boosting.

You will be fine with a 2560 (again what I'm running now) people make 190 to ~300 (very rare) whp on these with great spool. Just remember your driving a revvy 4cyl not a more tourquey v6. You should only be lean when using a standalone if you tune it that way, I pass Ontario emissions with a MS1.

Around town, and without being gentle with the go pedal I get 24-26 mpg in the Miata. On the highway, 30-32 depending how fast I'm going.

With the Jetta...

No, well, apparently i cruise lower than everyone else. The 2854ish turbo in the shanghai kit is not much larger than a 2554. Damn, i wish i would have gotten the 2871ish chinese one. Anyways, once you get a turbo and start boosting, you will give a shit less where your boost threshold is to a certain extent. I wish i had a larger turbo. As long as i have power at about 4k i am good. Anyways, the magic of a turbo, is that it is NA when you want it. I get about 32-36 on the interstate, and city mileage, well this is san antonio, and i hate driving here, so it often involves lots of full throttle stints. The best i have gotten is about 25 in the city usually about 22 ish but that is driver assholism. I run about 15:1 @ -10and below and by 0 I am at 13:1. So that makes for good mileage. I dont pick up any detonation with Jeffs bad ass det cans anyways. I know a supercharger cant make those numbers, plus only raising the intake temp less that 20 degrees over ambient. turbo's are superior to everything in every way. Have you ever seen supercharged F1 cars?

ok guys the turbo size has NOTHING to do with psi when in vacuum. This is because of the throttle body, you are measuring air in the intake manifold not on the other side. If you are seing boost while cruising you should check out your car because something is wrong. Simply you have too much load to where you need boost to move your vehicle at 65-70 mph.

i'm assuming the gauge is wired in the manifold like it should be, not on the other side between the turbo and the throttle body.

i got 28mph with the stock ecu hooked up and the waste gate disconnected and almost 32 mpg on the way back with the turbo hooked up and tuned and the car actually ran a tiny bit rich for cruising at 15-10in on my 300 miles trip (avg speed was 70mph all highway)

Just saying the car was extremely throttle sensitive, and would boost from seemingly no change in input, if I started up the tiniest incline for example. That was the reason I didn't like highway driving it if it was going to rain.

Man im so thankful yall have treated me with so much hospitality, I do really appreciate it. My save for supercharger fund has switched gracefully to a new turbo kit in light of new discoveries.

i'm running a 2554 hehe i know what sensitive is and you still need to press it to get in boost. Try the cruise control next time, it still should keep you at -10-15 cruising even at 70mph

Kidloco i'm glad you enjoyed your welcome, now bend over :P
turbo kits are very fun but for our nbs are pain in the butt as we dont have any easy ways of getting fuel in that engine. I was thinking the same thing as you and here i am 4k later. I ended up running adaptronic standalone after scaring my self half to death with the xede piggy back.

Its ok, he wants a megasquirt.

MS is good :)

I just want the standalone that will let me start my car up with out fail as long as i dont cut any corners with the install. This is my DD im using and i want to make sure its ready reliable. If its more reliable to go piggy back then thats where ill be.

its all in the tune.

You can get a megasquirt and start with the base map then go from there. I would actually suggest squirting your car before anything else. It saved me money to buy it with the turbo kit, so i did. Anywho. If you get a DIY pnp and load up the basemap your golden. It will start every time. I was running 6-7 psi on stock injectors.

indeed it will be the safest to install MS before the turbo and get it running good and then install the kit once you get used to the MS.

This is what I did and it's a great idea, take your time and do it right.

installing injectors will also be good at that point or at least after installing MS.

Do one thing at once. If you do one thing at a time, there is only one thing to screw up at a time.

Im pretty comfortable with soldering and hardware from my pc and rc car hobbies :) So ill probably pick up a mega squirt v3 board over the upcoming holidays to get things ready.

Before i jump injectors i can keep them stock till i HAVE to upgrade them correct?

Short answer, yes.

they should be good to about 8psi. ~180-200whp or so.