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Old 09-09-2010, 06:05 AM   #1
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Default 10AE exploring FI possiblites

Hello all glad to be apart of the forums. Im on my search of which FI application i want to venture into. I currently picked up my 10ae last year in april and left it stock for a year while I drove the car on its stock limits. Pretty fun i do say but a little lack luster in the go pedal department. But that might be because my first car was a 3kgt vr4 and this is my second car So ive recently swaped in the tubular header from the 01+ models and it made a pleasant change in power delivery but still wanting a bit more. So this is why i am here. To seek infomation about turbo kits while im still in search of a forum oriented toward supercharges as well. although miata.net is quite nice with that info.

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Old 09-09-2010, 06:43 AM   #2
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Now for the reason for my visit to the forms is how to make a turbo kit spool early and deliver about the same torque curve one would get in a supercharger? Secondly is once my kit is done and built and all thats left is tunning is it possible to just have ecu premades in place to switch to and from DD characteristic to track time on the fly?

I know one should go in pre fabbed kits and the other in ecu but dont want to get flamed for having a low post count lol.

Because im currently try to figure out what i want. Id love to have a turbo if can get it to have an even torque curve as possible for drivabilty sake in town. I drove along with my friends turbo 1.6 l and it annoyed the hell out of me how it didnt make power till 3800-4k rpm and then just exploded with speed. Its a cool feeling non the less but not something im looking for unless im at road america or something lol. Around here is the drive way austin and haris hill which are nice technical tracks, and i spend ALOT of time through twisty roads. So far everything points to supercharger but i dont want constant drag on the engine to make power. Although it looks to be of a more install and leave it type of setup. Which probably can be done with a turbo if you dont cut corners

I was wondering around and stumbled into the spool sticky thread and saw alot of turbos that didnt get full spool untill 3500 + did see a few making 1-2 psi at 1500 rpm which was cool but they rocket to 14psi which is kinda what im avoiding unless i can do the preset thing for times when im just on the high way or around town.

My other reason for going turbo is because Id like to have those flat out moments of fun in straight line. Which probally can be done wit tuning and give or take 15-18 psi. I mean doesnt take much for these things to take off. Where a super charger unfortunately seems to me kinda of has one setting unless you change betls and ratios which isnt something thats done on the fly. Which it seems like a turbo can manage with on the fly tuning of 8psi - 14 psi or am i just delusional?
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:46 AM   #3
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Read the NewB and DIY stickies.

LOL at going from a VR4 to an MX5

Your friends 1.6 may be running a turbo that is too big for the application. Although most of us dont spool at 1500 rpms, it's important to note that with a properly sized turbo, you'll rarely be under the boost threshold.

Daily driving a turbo car is actually quite easy/effortless after you drive it for a day or two to get used to it.

Be careful with your boost levels. Hitting 15-18psi sounds like fun (and it is, indeed VERY fun) but its going to cost a few very shiny pennies to make an engine that can handle it. Even if you're only using it "every now and then", something is going to die faster than you want it to. Again, read the NewB stickies.

With an electronic boost controller, or an electronic switching solenoid, it is indeed possible to switch between boost levels.
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Old 09-09-2010, 10:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Read the NewB and DIY stickies.

LOL at going from a VR4 to an MX5

Your friends 1.6 may be running a turbo that is too big for the application. Although most of us dont spool at 1500 rpms, it's important to note that with a properly sized turbo, you'll rarely be under the boost threshold.

Daily driving a turbo car is actually quite easy/effortless after you drive it for a day or two to get used to it.

Be careful with your boost levels. Hitting 15-18psi sounds like fun (and it is, indeed VERY fun) but its going to cost a few very shiny pennies to make an engine that can handle it. Even if you're only using it "every now and then", something is going to die faster than you want it to. Again, read the NewB stickies.

With an electronic boost controller, or an electronic switching solenoid, it is indeed possible to switch between boost levels.

yeah im not sure why i picked a miata but i havent looked back lol.

If i was going turbo i would most likely pick up the s4 kit from begi to start with and get the smaller turbo option. But i was aiming for a torque curve That could be flat as possible that way throttle input can be as predictable as possible. I dont mind cost ,im saving up for it anyways as long as its reliable as can be.
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Old 09-09-2010, 12:14 PM   #5
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the flattest torque curves come from the smallest turbochargers, the problem is that the smallest turbochargers run out of steam at the top end of the RPM range. The garrett GT2560R is known to have an excellent power band with the 1.8L engine, while still being able to kick up at a relatively low RPM.

You still haven't followed the instructions in the NewB stickies. If you had, we might be able to tell what part of the world you live in, and someone might offer you a ride in a properly setup turbo miata. You might quickly change your mind on how 'unflat' the torque curve is for a properly setup system.
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:32 PM   #6
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the flattest torque curves come from the smallest turbochargers, the problem is that the smallest turbochargers run out of steam at the top end of the RPM range. The garrett GT2560R is known to have an excellent power band with the 1.8L engine, while still being able to kick up at a relatively low RPM.

You still haven't followed the instructions in the NewB stickies. If you had, we might be able to tell what part of the world you live in, and someone might offer you a ride in a properly setup turbo miata. You might quickly change your mind on how 'unflat' the torque curve is for a properly setup system.
whoops i thought it should under my name that im from austin texas. Im only an hours drive away from bell engineering. So that would be my turbo and soon to be supercharger out let.

What im looking for is a nice flat torque curve while driving around town for predictability.By die off meaning like boost cap? or the turbine just spins out of efficiency? Im not really aiming for high horse power since my ball park is about 190-250hp scale
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:49 PM   #7
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By "run out" I mean that the turbocharger simply may not flow enough volume of air to maintain a high boost level during high RPMs.

190hp is easily attainable, cheap, and reliable. A GT2554R should spool 190hp without blinking while being lightning fast.

230-250 hp is the beginning of a very very slippery slope.
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:58 PM   #8
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welcome

can't go wrong with an s4 for a starter kit, but its very addicting.
Before you know it you'll be looking at 2871's or 3071's
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:02 PM   #9
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The S4 kit you mentioned with the GT2560R and a nice free flowing exhaust, will spool plenty quick, and should still be in it's efficiency range at your desired goals. And as your goals evolve, a larger turbo, injectors, and a tune will quickly bring you into the realm of built motors.

Or you can go with 949's rotex SC, it seems to be getting good reviews from the track crowd.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:04 PM   #10
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The rotorex is fantastic.
The price is not.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
By "run out" I mean that the turbocharger simply may not flow enough volume of air to maintain a high boost level during high RPMs.

190hp is easily attainable, cheap, and reliable. A GT2554R should spool 190hp without blinking while being lightning fast.

230-250 hp is the beginning of a very very slippery slope.
By lighting quick as in full boost by 3k?

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Originally Posted by dstn2bdoa View Post
The S4 kit you mentioned with the GT2560R and a nice free flowing exhaust, will spool plenty quick, and should still be in it's efficiency range at your desired goals. And as your goals evolve, a larger turbo, injectors, and a tune will quickly bring you into the realm of built motors.

Or you can go with 949's rotex SC, it seems to be getting good reviews from the track crowd.
I did see that rotrex and i cant see the 3.2k price tag with only 165whp. At least the fast forward is a guaranteed 190whp at that range. But once the super charger is installed theres no adjustment unless your in a garage

Overall im trying to get a nice broad range of levels of hp within one kit really. to avoid having to bring my car under the knife for a given situation. Plus im going to stay away from built engine horse power or i might as well do a v8 swap lol. But i have a sinking feeling if i setup the turbo the way i want ill be a few grand shy of a lsx miata and that will make me cry lol
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:18 PM   #12
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Are they really that far off?

The begi S4 kit is $3680 with no injectors or engine management.

The DIY Rotex is $2895, you would still need injectors, DIY intercooler, and engine management.

Am I missing anything?
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:19 PM   #13
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2554 will easily hit full boost by 3.

rotrex can be "unrestricted" and made to put out way more than 165.
The FFS Doesn't have as much power increase potential.

A small turbo setup will put down more power and torque than both.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:23 PM   #14
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That 165hp is their base kit running stock injectors and a power card

Do the DIY set up mentioned above, with the 30-70 and 300hp is possible.

Look up Track day hokey's set up.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:24 PM   #15
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300 without built motor and alternate fuel = no bueno
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:30 PM   #16
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Are they really that far off?

The begi S4 kit is $3680 with no injectors or engine management.

The DIY Rotex is $2895, you would still need injectors, DIY intercooler, and engine management.

Am I missing anything?
Since this will be my first install of forced induction i was going with the kit cost of 3.2k. Granted I did do header work on my vr4 and had to mess with the twins and reinstall a missing intercooler but not putting in an entire kit so i would love to have something planned out for my first rodeo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstn2bdoa View Post
That 165hp is their base kit running stock injectors and a power card

Do the DIY set up mentioned above, with the 30-70 and 300hp is possible.

Look up Track day hokey's set up.
But since its driven by belt and a certain gear ratio wouldnt i still have to put the car under garage to get varing performance levels or would a boost conrtoller do the trick? 300hp is a bit more than i want to spring for since that brings cost levels waaaaaay to high

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2554 will easily hit full boost by 3.

rotrex can be "unrestricted" and made to put out way more than 165.
The FFS Doesn't have as much power increase potential.

A small turbo setup will put down more power and torque than both.
This is why im more partial to turbos at the moment.
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Old 09-09-2010, 05:56 PM   #17
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300 without built motor and alternate fuel = no bueno
True that.

It seems that the turbo kit, is the ticket for the OP.
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:16 PM   #18
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True that.

It seems that the turbo kit, is the ticket for the OP.
that could very well be the case if there is a way to dial down the sling shot effect that you get in a turbo and turn up the bigger motor feel that people say of a super charger then im sold to turbo lol
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Old 09-09-2010, 07:47 PM   #19
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For the power you want to make, a 2554, 2.5" exh and a boost controller should do exactly what you want.

I had the same setup (IHI equivalent journal turbo) on another car and it would make 1psi in neutral. Full boost (14psi) was availiable by 2700-2800rpm and starting at 1700rpm. I had a tough time not being at .5 psi on the highway while cruising.

A properly setup 2560 should meet your goals as well. I'm running a 2560 now and have the same "flat torque" goal.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:22 AM   #20
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For the power you want to make, a 2554, 2.5" exh and a boost controller should do exactly what you want.

I had the same setup (IHI equivalent journal turbo) on another car and it would make 1psi in neutral. Full boost (14psi) was availiable by 2700-2800rpm and starting at 1700rpm. I had a tough time not being at .5 psi on the highway while cruising.

A properly setup 2560 should meet your goals as well. I'm running a 2560 now and have the same "flat torque" goal.
Ok so i take the 2560 series for the s4 kit with begi. If I install a standalone and EBC i should theoretically be able to have "pre-maps" in place where i could switch between DD characteristics with a flat curve from 2200 to a race characteristics where ill want torque and power shifted toward the upper rpms correct? Or will that hurt the engine running different maps for boost, timing , and afr ?
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