01+ COPS with MS?
 

I'm wondering if anyone runs a MS with COPS on a 2001+. Searched but didn't find useful results.

y8s. his is an '01 right?

Schematically, they're no different from the '96+ coils as far as the OEM wiring is concerned. I see no reason why they wouldn't work, albeit the dwell profile might want to be re-examined, as the core & windings appear physically more compact.

I'm glad we have people like you on the forum with a remarkable technical comprehension so dumbasses like myself can have nice things and still be certifiably retarded.

Seconded. I want Joe to have my babies.

+1 .... I feel the same way about Paul.

???

I can understand a little when folks go gaga over the complicated stuff, but this is easy shit. You look at the FSM wiring diagram for 03-05, and each coil has a +12 feed from the "engine" fuse, a ground wire, and a trigger line from the ECU that's +5 active-high. Exactly the same as all the other Miatas from '95.5 onward when they eliminated the tach wire and moved it to the ECU. The newer coils are packaged differently, but from from looking at the wiring diagram you'd never know they weren't the same part.

evan, your shit's an MSM isn't it?

item 1: the favorite toyot cops dont fit into the VVT valve cover. one has to change.

item 2: the MSM has a different valve cover. measure the spark plug holes. the COPs are .956 give or take. I'd want a full .040 larger than that just in case. call it 1 inch. if they're a little smaller it's probably fine.

Yes. Thank you for not holding that against me. :)

Will do. Any excuse to use my digital calipers...

Hold the phone ... I'm confused already. If 95.5 - 2005 are the same wiring for COPS, then why does Savington (here: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t20437/) offer different versions from various post-95 cars?

Can you post a more specific link (like, to a particular message)? I skimmed through the thread but didn't see any wiring diagrams. They did change the connector in '03. From '96-'02, they used the same 4 position connector as '94-'95 but with only three wires in it. The '03+ coils went to a smaller three position connector. There is no apparent difference however in the signal levels, the wiring, etc. IOW- they're mechanically different, but electrically identical.

I'm sure there are some fitment differences in the bracket to hold the COP as well. '99-'00 had the cam sensor at the front of the head, '01+ moved it to the back. Plus there was the switch from the rear-mount coils to the CNPs, which would have required another mechanical change to the valve cover.

Finally measured today. Couldn't get an exact read because I had to approach the hole at a vertical angle. Hole diameter is approximately .935, so apparently the COPS you mentioned will not fit. So, would I have to change the valve cover? Hate to give up that nice MSM krinkle-coat red with the "turbo" lettering on it .... but performance comes first ....

i used a 1" flap wheel and went to town.

or you could find smaller COPs.

Shit. I have my Toyota COPs sitting right here, I never knew that they don't fit. What part of the pencil doesn't fit? Is the girth of the pencil bigger than the hole's diameter? (I tried really hard to write this down without this being another quote on someone else's sig, but alas, I failed miserably).

Jim

this is how far:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1148/...46e238.jpg?v=0

more
miata photos - a set on Flickr

So how did you get them to fit? Did you trim the cylinder head holes?

Jim

I just want to say that I am not helping on this project. EK, you're on your own.

lots of verbal abuse. swearing at it.

and while I did that, I killed time by running a small head porting drum sander in the holes.

Anyone find skinnier COPs yet?

Gotta get the young ones before all the coffee and donuts take their toll.

evan ordered some infiniti COPs (6) and I told him to send you one. have you heard from him yet?

ha!

now i want a donut.

He has. We're emailing about this.

COPS got here a couple of days ago (that was fast!) .... thanks Mr. Seller.

Tonight I removed all the outer insulation, to get this:

http://www.snarc.net/msm-cops.jpg

Next, since I don't have one of those exotic V6 Miatas ;) , I have to decide which two of the six to eliminate...

Some progress .... finally got my Infiniti coils to JasonC, who is testing them for dwell times .... I also bought a couple of capacitors per Ben's thread at https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t19939/ (yes I know we only need one, but I have a reputation for breaking shit the first time!) ..... next I get to organize the wires and rig up a mounting system. Fun stuff.

Evan kindly sent me Infiniti COPs and connectors.

FWIW they go down my 99/00 valve cover, but they are too long and stick up. I presume it will be too long too for the '01.

Evan what are you planning to do with the excess length?

Crap, I didn't consider the length. Would go test-fit them right now, but I just got home and the car is still hot. I'll have to wait a while.

What can be done? Is the consequence of extra length just cosmetic, or does it create an operational problem?

Update: I waited an hour, then went to test-fit a coil. There's about .5" gap between the top of the valve cover and the bottom of the coil head, as shown in this crappy cameraphone picture (ignore the coil's mounting ears -- they are not touching the valve cover; the length of the coil itself is the issue -- but I still might trim off the ears if I don't need them for mounting purposes):
http://snarc.net/infin.jpg

I also noticed that the hole in the bottom of the coil is about 1" deep before it contacts the guts of the coil. How important is that 1" -- can I carefully trim it to .5" or is that inch something that's precise and important?

But if the length issue on top is just cosmetic, then I'm not concerned; I have several ideas for the mounting rig.

If it doesn't shake around, and water and dirt don't go in, it's OK.

For the sake of posterity I placed the dwell findings here

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t11744-3/

FWIW you can pull the shaft off the Infiniti COP. The shaft is like what plug wires are on a non COP setup. If one could shorten it, without causing arcing ...

It may be easier to just use a 1/2" spacer on top of the valve cover.

Would someone mind shooting me a photo of the inside of the valve cover valley? I want to know whether I can just run a 1" endmill down the center to machine away all the stock coil mounting stuff, or whether those little mounting bosses are hollow.

This is exactly the same with the stock 01+ coils. Maybe one could use the shafts from the stock coils and the coilpack unit from the Infiniti COPS. Frankenstain COPS!

Jim

Yeah but then I'd need to acquire two more stock coils.

I'm going to try the Infiniti coils as-is. So they'll stick up an extra 1/2-inch, that's no big deal. Maybe I'll put something around the exposed part for (ahem) protection.

Jason, thanks for testing the Infiniti coils.

Before, I thought I could just wire them in, rig a mounting mechanism, tell MS the dwell settings, and be done with it.

Now, I'm utterly confused! :)

Basically I don't understand everything from, "The input requires..." to "so I couldn't measure HV output" .... is that all just background or do I need to * do * something with that big chunk of information?

For example you said some ECUs have a current limited drive and the input should not be driven without a resistor ..... is the MS (in parallel) one of those ECUs? If so, then what size resistor do I need and where does it go?

Also, re: the dwell numbers you listed -- are those for cranking or running? How do I determine the numbers for whichever setting these aren't? What about minimum discharge?

the dwell numbers are for whatever voltage you're at. chances are your voltage drops during cranking so use whatever that is. since it's short duration, you dont have to worry about overheating the coils.

and for running, if you can enter a curve, do it. if you can't, use the 14V value.

probably 1.75 cranking
and 1.20 running.

Whoa, quite a difference from what I have now in the shared stock coils: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t11744-3/#post390845.

If I understand this correctly, it means the Infiniti coils are "better" because they get hot faster and cool down faster. Is that a correct assessment in simple English?

My end goal is to eliminate misfires by running a wider plug gap. Right now I have .020, because anything wider blows out above 10psi. So, COPS = better spark = I can run a wider gap. Correct?

i wont speculate what shorter dwell times imply--i'll let jason field that.

but if they are better than the stock setup, you can indeed run a larger gap. probably at least .035.

I wasn't able to measure voltage output so I can't tell you how they compare to the other coils in terms of firing large caps.

The dwell is what it is.
Short dwell tends to mean less energy storage.
The energy storage of the Infiniti coils is less than the other coils.
However I don't know how much is wasted in plug wires.
I'm not sure how relevant it really is.

0.020" blowing out at 11 psi sounds like there's something else wrong with your setup.

Proof's in the pudding though. If you can definitely get more gap out of the Inifiniti coils then great.

I'd go with 1.2 ms running, and 2 ms cranking

I took an 01 factory coil and pulled its shaft off. Exactly the same thing as the Inf coil , just shorter. It fit on the Infiniti coil like a glove.

evan,

(answering his PM that it won't rev abouve 3000)
Where are your COPs grounded? Where is it getting 12V?

Answer to both questions is: directly from the stock coil harness. I also used a 10,000 microfarad capacitor as described in another thread (I forget whose right now.)