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2001 ls...MS?
so i have a 2001 LS,
i'm currently saving for a beg-s kit, as basic as i can get (AFPR, no intercooling, no BOV, 5ish psi) and i was planning on going to the zoom3 from there. i read the 'things i regret post' or wtv, and more than one person said 'i wish i would have just megasquirted, before turbo set up' so taking you guys' experience and trying to save myself trouble i picked up researching MS's again. so i've read and read, (even read most of maximum boost =P) including all of braineak's posts and i've searched enough to hate the search engine on this forum and all i've found is one person with a 2001 + that has a megasquirt, and that is compy. and me being the noob i am with under 15 posts i cant PM him so im askin everyone First of all.. is it possible to megasquirt a 2001+ (i know VVT becomes a problem somewhere in there) second of all is it worth megasquirting my car? or should i just go with the FPR and zoom 3 later? i can't and will never be able to afford a Xede or Hydra on top of the turbo kit im already buying third.. can you just point me in teh right direction? give me some links, something to read that i cant learn about MSing my specific car? reading braneak's DIY MS jumps right into lingo, wiring...protos?...capacitors... and shit i cant understand. i know this sounds nooby but i tried, just give me some direction please. thanks in advance |
Should be able to do a parallel install no problem. Easiest would be a MS 1 setup and use a CAS sensor snapped in the back of the factory exhaust cam.
It really depends on your goals. Are you looking for a bump in power or is this gonna be a 200+whp car? Or more? You could use a AFPR and no timing retard for a little bit of boost, if you used an intercooler. |
Im in pretty much the same boat:
I REAAAAAALLLLY want a parrallel ms to be able to run 15ish psi on the car, but am way too electronically challenged to build my own. thought about the zoom3, aborted that idea simply because it costs over 700 for unit and harness, and controls only up to 8psi on stockers. weak so for now till i get everything on and sorted out I picked up a voodoo box. same 8psi control on stock injectors, just a bit more crude and quite a bit less expensive (got it used). I am JUST DYING for someone that is more knowledgeable to step up and start making parallel units, or diyautotune to start making pnp versions.......something has to happen because there is more and more people out there getting nb's and hydra/xede/aem standalone is just too damn expensive.. I am really eyeballing the aem fic though..seems like a reasonable unit. you can get one for 360 shipped, looks like its not too hard to wire in, and I played around with the software for it and while a little crude, it looks like it will get the job done. I've also noticed a few members on here using them with positive results, so thats a plus. some more stats from advertisement: Description: The AEM F/IC is an economical solution for controlling fuel and ignition on vehicles that do not require stand-alone engine management, including variable cam timing engines like VTEC, VVTi and MiVEC. The F/IC is a PC programmable unit that gives users with OBD-II vehicles and non-factory forced induction systems the ability to retard ignition and deliver accurate amounts of fuel without the need for outdated FMUs or “boost hiding” controllers. This system works parallel to the factory ECU preventing tuning limitations due to complex factory timing patterns and will not cause a check engine light (CEL). * Works with latest OBD-II vehicles including variable valve control * Variable Valve timing controller based on Engine RPM and Load * Six (6) injector inputs with simulated injector load used when remapping OEM injectors * Six (6) fuel injector controllers for either remapping of ECU output (+/- 100% trim) or as a stand-alone extra injector driver * 21x17 maps with configurable load and RPM breakpoints * Analog in/out for remapping / clamping MAF * F/IC draws power from PC USB interface for quick and easy calibration changes * 64kb on-board data logger * Drives high impedence injectors or low impedence injectors with use of Peak & Hold Injector Driver Box * Three (3) channels of timing retard * Supports MAG or HALL sensor types * On board 41PSIA (approx. 25PSI boost) manifold pressure sensor * Windows-based Tuning Software * Universal Piggy Back Fuel, Ignition Controller for OBD2 Vehicles - Will work on other applications as well. (Inquire within if unsure) in the meantime: ANYONE HAS A BETTER SUGGESTION? |
patmx5 -"You could use a AFPR and no timing retard for a little bit of boost, if you used an intercooler. "
-i understand that i can use the AFPR up to an extent, but only to like 8 psi correct? which would then top out at like 200whp when intercooled and everything tuned? patmx5 -"Should be able to do a parallel install no problem. Easiest would be a MS 1 setup and use a CAS sensor snapped in the back of the factory exhaust cam." -so your saying that is its possible and totally do-able. so if i follow brianeaks' guide for a 1999 i should be fine? or do i have to do anything specific because of the 2001? is there some guide i can folllow up to a certain point and then deal with vvt from there? i can't seem to get on 'megamanual.com' to get anymore information on building my own MS patxm5- "It really depends on your goals. Are you looking for a bump in power or is this gonna be a 200+whp car? Or more?" no, im not exactly looking for a just a bump in power, as most people say that once i turbo, im just gonna want more and more power and i know this is going to be true for me. i'm young and i pour all money money into my car so im gonna say im going to be looking for a little over 200whp, if i hit 200whp i will be happy, but im sure im going to want more after that goal is reached. 18psi thanks for the AEM F/IC tip, that is an option i've not explored. sounds interesting and a pretty good alternative to the expensive zoom3, it seems to me you were smart in going for the voodoo box as a temporarty solution. i'll do some research and look into the F/IC any more info on MSing my '01 would be aweome |
Originally Posted by esp140
(Post 337417)
-so your saying that is its possible and totally do-able. so if i follow brianeaks' guide for a 1999 i should be fine? or do i have to do anything specific because of the 2001? is there some guide i can folllow up to a certain point and then deal with vvt from there?
Step back for a moment and contemplate what we're actually doing here. Visualize the stock ECU and the wiring coming out of it. All we really need to do is cut the wires going to the ECU for fuel and spark and redirect them to the MS. We also need to tap into a couple of other wires for power, ground, the CLT and TPS sensors, and optionally the clutch switch. And that's it. You don't even need to think about VVT or VTCS or any of the smog stuff, since the stock ECU is not being disturbed in those regards. Now, whether the ECU will start throwing codes as a result of being disconnected from the injectors and coils is another matter, and one I honestly can't address directly. We can easily help out with the '01 wiring should you choose to go this route. i can't seem to get on 'megamanual.com' to get anymore information on building my own MS Also, here is the "good" documentation for the MS-Extra code for the MS1: MS-Extra Manual Index and the MS2: MS2/Extra Manual Index These cover all the advanced stuff that isn't in the main MegaManual. I'm a bit surprised that with the growing acceptance of MS2 within the Miata community that folks are still installing NA CASs onto their NB engines. I'd suggest that you consider using the NBs factory crank and cam sensors. I don't think that the action of the VVT system should have any deleterious effect upon their operation of the SM2. i'm young and i pour all money money into my car so im gonna say im going to be looking for a little over 200whp, if i hit 200whp i will be happy, but im sure im going to want more after that goal is reached. BTW, best noob post ever. :bigtu: |
Originally Posted by esp140
(Post 337417)
18psi thanks for the AEM F/IC tip, that is an option i've not explored. sounds interesting and a pretty good alternative to the expensive zoom3, it seems to me you were smart in going for the voodoo box as a temporarty solution. i'll do some research and look into the F/IC
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thanks for kinda breakin it down for me joe,
Step back for a moment and contemplate what we're actually doing here. Visualize the stock ECU and the wiring coming out of it. All we really need to do is cut the wires going to the ECU for fuel and spark and redirect them to the MS. We can easily help out with the '01 wiring should you choose to go this route. I'd suggest that you consider using the NBs factory crank and cam sensors. I don't think that the action of the VVT system should have any deleterious effect upon their operation of the SM2. BTW, best noob post ever. jaymx5- thanks for the offer, i will look into it and let you know if MSing proves to be over my head. sorry this post was mostly me thinking out loud lol any more input would be greatly appreciated |
If you do decide to go the ms route (which is great if you go through with it) this is what you need to do:
TAKE AS MANY DETAILED PICTURES AS POSSIBLE and POST/WRITE OUT EXACTLY WHAT YOU DO AND HOW THE PROJECT IS PROGRESSING. I say this because if you end up doing it earlier than myself, me and the MANY nb owners on here thinking of this will thank you kindly. It will help everyone on the fence go through with it. eventually even if I go with the fic I will end up with megasquirt. just a matter of time. and since I'm a big pussy I am putting it off:giggle: |
Originally Posted by esp140
(Post 337318)
all i've found is one person with a 2001 + that has a megasquirt, and that is compy
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 337354)
I am JUST DYING for someone that is more knowledgeable to step up and start making parallel units
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Forget everything that was written here about VVT.
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Originally Posted by evank
(Post 337692)
Yes. DIY is the "someone" you're looking for. They will build a parallel MS for your NB. I know because they built mine. :)
diyautotune.com built your ms parallel unit? how????? on their site they dont list anything of the sort. did you contact them and had them make you one? how much? details details......PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!! if anything pm me man, I am all ears. |
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 337694)
I know that the Hydra is capable of full VVT control. JayMX5, does the AEM support this as well?
As for the f/ic, anyone looking to use it should see it as more of a cheap stepping stone than a complete engine management solution. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 337696)
Ok, you have my full attention: diyautotune.com built your ms parallel unit? how????? on their site they dont list anything of the sort. did you contact them and had them make you one? how much? details details......PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
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so this is all thats needed?
http://www.snarc.net/msq-parts-list.jpg |
You missed the post beneath that one. You also need: CAS from a '90-'97, some vacuum line, a long serial cable, a laptop computer, assorted wire, heat shrink, solder, soldering gun/iron, know how to use it. :) , lots of beer, lots of time, another car to drive in case you fuck up, and -- the most important part (for me anyway) -- was having Paul & Friends around.
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 337434)
I'm a bit surprised that with the growing acceptance of MS2 within the Miata community that folks are still installing NA CASs onto their NB engines. I'd suggest that you consider using the NBs factory crank and cam sensors.
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the fact that they're already there?
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don't worry about thread jacking, its all pertinent. all this info is helping.
im as amped up as 18psi at the fact that you said Yes. DIY is the "someone" you're looking for. They will build a parallel MS for your NB. I know because they built mine. as for jaymx5's post - As for the f/ic, anyone looking to use it should see it as more of a cheap stepping stone than a complete engine management solution. |
Compy runs a parallel MS on his 01 w/VVT. What's the issue again?
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I'm a retard.
We're talking about a parallel build here, so of course VVT is a non-issue. Forget everything I said about that. It was late and I was tired. :rolleyes: evank, my bias towards using the NB sensors is two-fold. First, they are already there as 18psi says. Second, a belt-driven CAS sensor is always going to have a degree of slop in it owing to the flexation of the belt. A crank-driven sensor will be inherently more precise. Obviously the CAS works well or we wouldn't have 8 years worth of Miatas driving around on it. But if you already have a crank trigger, why not use it? |
Remind me again. Can MSI handle the stock crank trigger or only MSII?
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Just MSII.
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Originally Posted by paul
(Post 337799)
Compy runs a parallel MS on his 01 w/VVT. What's the issue again?
post compy! :confused:
Originally Posted by joe perez
(Post 337799)
We're talking about a parallel build here, so of course VVT is a non-issue. Forget everything I said about that. It was late and I was tired.
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Originally Posted by esp140
(Post 337955)
sooo the let the stock ecu run VVT and not have the MS worry about it? can it do that?
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ight that makes perfect sense. sooo its really not near as complicated or complex as i was making it to be. soo build and run an ms2 and im good to go? nothing else needed in that mix?
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Before you jump in with an MS2 have the 2-3 NBs with them on here gotten all the shit fixed?
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It's working for me but I haven't put many miles on it since I changed the input circuits. Pat went w/ a 36-1 wheel, I'm pretty sure Abe's was working until he had other unrelated problems. Last I heard the two guys in Europe were both working. I know they were both using MS2 but I don't know the details.
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Originally Posted by arga
(Post 338024)
I'm pretty sure Abe's was working until he had other unrelated problems.
But yeah, his setup was working like a charm. I rode in his car a couple of times prior to the most recent blowup, and it was quite nice. |
Originally Posted by paul
(Post 338013)
Before you jump in with an MS2 have the 2-3 NBs with them on here gotten all the shit fixed?
Only advice I can give is: Use high ohm injectors. Don't use low ohm. Just don't. Do not. If you are a genious, I would suggest designing a new 36-1 trigger wheel that would replace the factory 4-oddly-spaced trigger wheel. Then let the stock crank sensor read it. But that's never been done to my knowledge, but should be possible. And would be the "best" overall setup for a 99+. |
i am by no means a genius, so im sorry umma have to leave that to someone else.
im relying on the fact that i can read an follow directions well, and learned to solder at an early age. so since im initally running it natuarlly aspirated, alls i need to buy is the MS2 itself, build it and hook it up and tune it? i know i need a boomslang right? so i dont have to splice any factory wires. |
parallel anything with an 01 is fine, and YES you can fool the ECU into no error codes by using a PWM output converted to varying voltage sent to the AFM input signal to the ECU. creating that map is relatively simple if you approximate airflow as increasing with MAP and RPM. I may still have the duty cycles I used in the Tec3.
also, DONT DONT DONT USE THE FACTORY ECU FOR VTCS (01+ cars)!! it stays closed at a relatively high RPM during cold start that chokes a boosted engine. it needs an off-on type signal set to <2000 rpm and <60C coolant temp. Or just leave it disconnected. You may have cold start idle issues though. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 338166)
also, DONT DONT DONT USE THE FACTORY ECU FOR VTCS (01+ cars)!!
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 338398)
For that matter, don't use VTCS at all. Rip the damn thing out of the manifold and plug the holes with JB weld. (Yes, I'm serious about the JB weld this time.)
OT: the MR2/3SGTE guys have a thick plate independent of the mani that houses butterflies similar to the VTCS. They often remove and plug. A quick google search turned up a phenolic plate that replaces the whole assembly. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 338445)
sure why not, assuming you can idle the car cold for 5 minutes somehow.
An '01+ manifold with the VTCS removed is functionally pretty much identical to a 1.8 NA manifold. Those little plates are just there to stir up the air a bit- they're not chokes. Whether or not the engine idles properly when cold is entirely a function of fuel delivery and the operation of the IAC valve. VTCS is simply the latest in a long line of tiny, incremental improvements to emissions performance during cold start and warmup. Such a system is also found on newer Subarus. They call it TGV (tumble generator valves) and the system closely resembles a pair of short Weber IDA/IDF carbs. The removal of these valves is such a common mod that several companies sell a pre-modified set of manifold risers. Here's a picture showing the stock system, and the modifed riser with the valves removed: http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.c...5_2030_2559212 Long story short: Assuming the capacity to tune the fuel map accordingly, removing the VTCS valves is not going to negatively impact the ability of the car to be driven when cold. |
My 99' doesn't have VTCS, or any other air tumbling device. For that matter, I don't have a working IAC valve either. Still idles pretty damn good at 700 RPMs from a 28*F start. Only complaint is it will hunt just a bit for ~30 seconds sometimes. This could be curred by idling up a bit or adjusting my timing table.
To the OP, just read in the MS forum. The more you read, the more you'll know. And the more you learn, the more confident you'll get. |
Joe: the extra tumble basically reduces the need for super rich cold starts. if it's just for emissions, then it's a no brainer. if it's part of a mitigation of a compromise in intake design, it may be harder. when I left my VTCS disconnected, the car wouldn't stay running from cold (<50F) start. no other map changes--which is probably why it wouldn't.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 338563)
My 99' doesn't have VTCS, or any other air tumbling device.
This is why in my previous post I compared a VTCS-less '01 manifold to an NA manifold, rather than a '99-'00 manifold.
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 338565)
if it's just for emissions, then it's a no brainer. if it's part of a mitigation of a compromise in intake design, it may be harder.
Which engine management system are you running? I ask because I'd imagine that a little work with warmup enrichment ought to solve the problem. Given that VTCS's purpose is essentially to allow stiochiometric operation when cold, it stands to reason that after removing it, one would have to richen up a tad like the rest of us when cold. |
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