I put the MS in MSM.
07-14-2008, 09:47 AM
#1
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I put the MS in MSM.
So yesterday I finally got around to installing an MSI v3.57 in a friend's 04 MSM.
Ordered the MSI from DIY and the harness extension from Boomslang. Combined the db37 and harness extension a couple weeks ago leaving the fuel injector and spark wiring intact. This way we could hook up the MS to make sure it was monitor everything correctly before proceeding. Best way to do it if you are going parallel as it helps a lot if something is wrong. Like when we first started it up we had no tach in MT. If MS was controlling spark and fuel at that point the car wouldn't have started and I wouldn't have known where to begin. This at least narrowed it down to something between the NA CAS I installed and the software. Turned out to be a software thing that I fixed by flashing new firmware.
Installed a GM IAT sensor in the FM elbow before the TB and ran it's own wiring directly to the MS. This way the factory wiring is untouched and I didn't have to mess around with undocumented bias resistor values to calibrate the sensor.
Next step was switching the fueling over to MS. Left the current injectors in, again to narrow down causes of problems if we ran into any. Car ran fine. Took it out for some tuning. Found the small 254cc 94 injectors(long story*see abbreviated version below) were way undersized and seeing 100% duty cycle up top.
So next we installed his recently cleaned RX7 460s. For anyone who hasn't done injectors on an NB you might not think it's a big deal but Mazda really fucked us in this respect, especially on the MSM. Changing injectors is an hour job for me on an NB head and I've done it multiple times. Adjusted the required fuel accordingly and change the cranking pulse widths to what I thought would suffice, I just took 60% of the current values that were working with 254cc injectors. Took a lil longer than usual to start the car, I attributed it to there being no fuel in the fuel rail or injectors. Took the car out for some tuning. When we got back Evan shut the car off early in the driveway. Tried to restart it but it wouldn't. Called who I thought was a friend(23c Jason) since he runs a squirted 01 with 460s for his cranking pulswsidths. He refused because him and Evan are in a flamewar. So I started adding to the higher temp pulsewidths to get the car started. SUCCESS! Then I remembered I had an old MSQ of Chads so I changed the rest of the values to match his 99/00 with 550s. Really didn't have another choice since we couldn't wait for the car to cool to ambient temp. Hopefully he was able to get the car started this morning, I'm sure I would have heard from him if not.
So at this point the MS is handling fueling with 460cc injectors. The next 2 things are switching the spark over to MS and hooking up the EBC. It was getting late, 10pm, so I was only gonna do 1. Figured it was safer to do EBC because it was less involved and if it didn't work he could still leave. If spark didn't work I'd have to redo the harness.
Connected the boost control solenoid, set up some values in MT, and left to get some Ralph's Italian Ice(best italian ice on the planet) with the girlfriend before they closed because she wasn't too happy that I had been outside all day doing "miata ****".
Now time for tuning EBC. I like to do the opposite of what Brain recommends and start with low duty cycles and adjust accordingly. That took a little longer than it normally does because Evan had a habit of lifting early. Ended up setting the boost to about 12 which we hit at 3000rpm out to redline, which is currently 7200 on the otherwise 6500rpm limited MSM.
Another day I will tackle moving the spark over to MS but as of right now Evan is ecstatic with the car.
Just got an email from Evan as I am typing this: "Car fired up without any hesitation and drove great this morning. "
* Evan had "upgraded" his injectors to Supra green tops(305cc) last summer. Had one fail earlier this year and got a replacement. A few weeks ago he had another failure and couldn't get a replacement. I installed the only injectors I had that his ECU could drive, a set of 94 tan tops that I just removed from my daily driver after 250,000 miles.
Ordered the MSI from DIY and the harness extension from Boomslang. Combined the db37 and harness extension a couple weeks ago leaving the fuel injector and spark wiring intact. This way we could hook up the MS to make sure it was monitor everything correctly before proceeding. Best way to do it if you are going parallel as it helps a lot if something is wrong. Like when we first started it up we had no tach in MT. If MS was controlling spark and fuel at that point the car wouldn't have started and I wouldn't have known where to begin. This at least narrowed it down to something between the NA CAS I installed and the software. Turned out to be a software thing that I fixed by flashing new firmware.
Installed a GM IAT sensor in the FM elbow before the TB and ran it's own wiring directly to the MS. This way the factory wiring is untouched and I didn't have to mess around with undocumented bias resistor values to calibrate the sensor.
Next step was switching the fueling over to MS. Left the current injectors in, again to narrow down causes of problems if we ran into any. Car ran fine. Took it out for some tuning. Found the small 254cc 94 injectors(long story*see abbreviated version below) were way undersized and seeing 100% duty cycle up top.
So next we installed his recently cleaned RX7 460s. For anyone who hasn't done injectors on an NB you might not think it's a big deal but Mazda really fucked us in this respect, especially on the MSM. Changing injectors is an hour job for me on an NB head and I've done it multiple times. Adjusted the required fuel accordingly and change the cranking pulse widths to what I thought would suffice, I just took 60% of the current values that were working with 254cc injectors. Took a lil longer than usual to start the car, I attributed it to there being no fuel in the fuel rail or injectors. Took the car out for some tuning. When we got back Evan shut the car off early in the driveway. Tried to restart it but it wouldn't. Called who I thought was a friend(23c Jason) since he runs a squirted 01 with 460s for his cranking pulswsidths. He refused because him and Evan are in a flamewar. So I started adding to the higher temp pulsewidths to get the car started. SUCCESS! Then I remembered I had an old MSQ of Chads so I changed the rest of the values to match his 99/00 with 550s. Really didn't have another choice since we couldn't wait for the car to cool to ambient temp. Hopefully he was able to get the car started this morning, I'm sure I would have heard from him if not.
So at this point the MS is handling fueling with 460cc injectors. The next 2 things are switching the spark over to MS and hooking up the EBC. It was getting late, 10pm, so I was only gonna do 1. Figured it was safer to do EBC because it was less involved and if it didn't work he could still leave. If spark didn't work I'd have to redo the harness.
Connected the boost control solenoid, set up some values in MT, and left to get some Ralph's Italian Ice(best italian ice on the planet) with the girlfriend before they closed because she wasn't too happy that I had been outside all day doing "miata ****".
Now time for tuning EBC. I like to do the opposite of what Brain recommends and start with low duty cycles and adjust accordingly. That took a little longer than it normally does because Evan had a habit of lifting early. Ended up setting the boost to about 12 which we hit at 3000rpm out to redline, which is currently 7200 on the otherwise 6500rpm limited MSM.
Another day I will tackle moving the spark over to MS but as of right now Evan is ecstatic with the car.
Just got an email from Evan as I am typing this: "Car fired up without any hesitation and drove great this morning. "
* Evan had "upgraded" his injectors to Supra green tops(305cc) last summer. Had one fail earlier this year and got a replacement. A few weeks ago he had another failure and couldn't get a replacement. I installed the only injectors I had that his ECU could drive, a set of 94 tan tops that I just removed from my daily driver after 250,000 miles.
Last edited by paul; 07-14-2008 at 10:09 AM.
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07-14-2008, 09:48 AM
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Forgot to mention. Currently the car is running LoRes. Last time I tried HiRes on a parallel install I ran into some problems so I am leaving that for another day.
Oh, and does anyone else know of another squirted MSM? Nobody over on the mazdaspeed forums thinks it'd been done before. No idea why. It's no different from any other NB really and there is no reason it shouldn't work. Lots of people think it won't since they have not had great success with EMU.
Oh, and does anyone else know of another squirted MSM? Nobody over on the mazdaspeed forums thinks it'd been done before. No idea why. It's no different from any other NB really and there is no reason it shouldn't work. Lots of people think it won't since they have not had great success with EMU.
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07-14-2008, 09:52 AM
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Glad you had success....you shouldn't have any problems with the 10g firmware, and I bet he'd be even happier.
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07-14-2008, 10:03 AM
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I'm trying to remember what problem I had. I'm not sure but I think it was with the clt/iat temps afterward so i must be doing something wrong with easytherm. is the procedure exactly the same for hi and lo res or am i supposed to select hi-res in easytherm before creating the inc files?
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07-14-2008, 10:37 AM
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Good job Paul.
What sort of wiring changes did you have to do with the fuel injectors? The MSM is sequential and I think the Megasquirt has batch fire, right? So you just took the correct two OEM injector wires to the MS injector driver?
If MS can run COPs in sequential why can't it run the injectors? Not enough injector drivers? Or do you all run the cops like the wasted spark coils?
What sort of wiring changes did you have to do with the fuel injectors? The MSM is sequential and I think the Megasquirt has batch fire, right? So you just took the correct two OEM injector wires to the MS injector driver?
If MS can run COPs in sequential why can't it run the injectors? Not enough injector drivers? Or do you all run the cops like the wasted spark coils?
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07-14-2008, 11:09 AM
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ran the MSI just like you would in any NA/NB(other than the Cali sequential versions). I bridged 1&3 and 2&4.
the MSI can't do sequential spark or fuel. the ms2 can do both i believe.
the MSI can't do sequential spark or fuel. the ms2 can do both i believe.
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07-14-2008, 03:18 PM
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Us guys over at Mazda-speed.com are a simple folk, we get boxed solutions from either BEGi or FM.
It's because we are stupid and lazy that we think MS was magically not going to work on our cars.
But once I heard that you, Paul, were gonna do this, I figured it would work first or second try at most.
Also, thanks to you and Jersey for shedding some light on the whole megasquirt hybrid install deal. It seems like a much better plan than going with the Hydra and dumping the stock ECU. (and a bit cheaper too, initially.)
It's because we are stupid and lazy that we think MS was magically not going to work on our cars.
But once I heard that you, Paul, were gonna do this, I figured it would work first or second try at most.
Also, thanks to you and Jersey for shedding some light on the whole megasquirt hybrid install deal. It seems like a much better plan than going with the Hydra and dumping the stock ECU. (and a bit cheaper too, initially.)
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07-14-2008, 06:43 PM
#14
Ya think?
As I posted just now on the MSM and Mob forums, here's my layman's analysis:
- With the car stock, 7.5 psi began at around 5,000 rpm, to 6,200 rev limit.
- Post-Absurdflow, 10 began at around 4,000 rpm, to 6,200 rev limit.
- Megasquirt and EBC, 13 psi begins at around 3,000 rpm, to 7,200 rev limit.
Zoom, zoom.
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07-14-2008, 08:19 PM
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Can never stop talkin **** can you? I'm not going to mention any names, but I use 460 numbers from one of the top moderators here, so that is an insult to him as well. And my car starts great in any temperature.
Tuning pulsewidths is not something super hard, and not being able to do it yourself is nothing but embarassing.
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